Your trademark is being used to make millions. And you get nothing CTT!

[Anonymous]

This is all it boils down to with Lionel and UP. As someone who owns trademarks, has paid thousands of dollars to secure them, and has lawyers attack anyone who infringes upon them without paying me a royality, I must say that this UP/Lionel thing has gone on long enough.

If you think UP is a villain because they want Lionel to pay for using their trademarks, just put yourself in UP's position.

Lets take CTT for example. I am going to start selling CTT T-shirts using their Mast head artwork and not give Kalmbach Publishing a dime. That's okay isn't it Neil? Afterall, it's free advertising, right? If you say that it's okay, I'll be heading to my silk-screening center with your artwork right away and I'll be listing CTT T-shirts for sale for $12.99. Argue with this one Elliot.

[Anonymous]

jack

It's more than that, it is the goodwill that UP has paid over the years for the UP name. If the name was worthless then Lionel would not use it. WE are willing to pay for trains with the UP logo so why shouldn't Lionel pay too. Why should Lionel have a free lunch??

What this comes down to is that Lionel is using the UP name; making money using it and not paying for the right to use it . Why should Lionel have a market advantage over other Toy train manufacturers that ARE paying UP to use the UP name(s).

Up is not being greedy They are simply recouping value for value. Just because you dont have this kind of value or can get money for your name doesn't mean that it is worthless to UP or others like Coke or Pepsi.

These companies spend millions making the name mean something, and now you feel Lionel should be able to just take it gratis?!

I don't get why some feel that toy trains are somehow exempt from paying licensing fees?


Alan

[ben10ben]

For 50 years, Lionel has used the UP name and logos without UP asking for so much as a cent. Why the sudden change of heart?

[Anonymous]

i'd like to know if there is more to the story. (there has to be) if a lawsuit has been filed, it's a public document and we can read the complaint... cant we? now... where do we find it?

[Anonymous]

There is a link to the filing in another of the many threads that have popped up about this.

It'd be nice if all of the separate threads were one. There's too much talk about legal issues & not enough about trains now.

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hate to say it Jack, but the CTT masthead ain't worth 2 cents to me. I don't want to buy it!Would you like some enterTRAINment hats, coffee mugs, t-shirts or post cards. I still have plenty.

This is a free market, UP owns their trademark and has every right to TRY to collect every penny for their name. I have never claimed otherwise. We know that people are willing to pay for the use of Coke, Pepsi, Ford etc. Which of these is more valuable the Minnesota Twins or the New York Yankees, and it is an acceptable answer to say that they both suck.

My problems with UP's position are:
1) Why did they wait so long to do this?
2) Why are they seeking to the rights to the fallen flags?
3) Why aren't BNSF, NS, CP and CN taking similar action?

The only conclusion that I can draw from all of this is GREED!!!! And if there is one thing in this world that I can't stand, it's GREED!!!!! UP can call their action any damn thing they want. They can try to convince people that they are DEFENDING THEIR VALUABLE TRADEMARK. But in MY eyes they look like IDIOTS!!!!!! GREEDY IDIOTS!!!! I am not alone in this view.

Win or lose in court, UP is losing in the court of public opinion. In my mind, their grand history is tarnished by this action. This lawsuit is a BADWILL gesture, the GOODWILL is over. In the blink of an eye, UP has managed to destroy it's image. Nothing anyone says will change my mind about this.

[3railguy]

If you think you're going to make millions peddling silk screen T shirts, I'm afraid you're in for a surprise.

[eZAK]

Elliot,

1) They are a corp. enity not just a railroad any more. They NEED to protect their corp. name, logo, & idenity in order to charge anyone who comes along in the future.
You have to charge everyone OR no one. Why now? I have a feeling when this is all over we all will know the exact reason.

2) These could also be charged for, spun off, or sold outright. And not just train related.

3) B/c they are waiting for the outcome! Once this is settled they all will jump on the band waggon b/c a precedence has been set.

Rember! Greed is all around you! It Is everwhere! You can not escape it!

After all it is part Human Nature! Also don't forget Lionel and Athearn are also corps. looking out for THEIR own bottom line!

[rlplionel]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005Would you like some enterTRAINment hats, coffee mugs, t-shirts or post cards. I still have plenty.

Hey Big Boy, what do your hats look like? I may be interested in one or two.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AlanHN

jack

It's more than that, it is the goodwill that UP has paid over the years for the UP name. If the name was worthless then Lionel would not use it. WE are willing to pay for trains with the UP logo so why shouldn't Lionel pay too. Why should Lionel have a free lunch??

What this comes down to is that Lionel is using the UP name; making money using it and not paying for the right to use it . Why should Lionel have a market advantage over other Toy train manufacturers that ARE paying UP to use the UP name(s).

Up is not being greedy They are simply recouping value for value. Just because you dont have this kind of value or can get money for your name doesn't mean that it is worthless to UP or others like Coke or Pepsi.

These companies spend millions making the name mean something, and now you feel Lionel should be able to just take it gratis?!

I don't get why some feel that toy trains are somehow exempt from paying licensing fees?


Alan

AMEN! AMEAN AMEN!

And the people who call it free advertising are wrong. It isn't free advertising, it's called LEECHING. Lionel is using UP and is not paying. I just hope they don't hit too hard because Lionel will USE US and nail us for a lot more than a few dollars.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ben10ben

For 50 years, Lionel has used the UP name and logos without UP asking for so much as a cent. Why the sudden change of heart?

They probably have been sending Lionel letters for years. How do we know? You can only take things from the "nasty neighbors" for so long before you've had enough and finally have to take them to court.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Hate to say it Jack, but the CTT masthead ain't worth 2 cents to me. I don't want to buy it!Would you like some enterTRAINment hats, coffee mugs, t-shirts or post cards. I still have plenty.

This is a free market, UP owns their trademark and has every right to TRY to collect every penny for their name. I have never claimed otherwise. We know that people are willing to pay for the use of Coke, Pepsi, Ford etc. Which of these is more valuable the Minnesota Twins or the New York Yankees, and it is an acceptable answer to say that they both suck.

My problems with UP's position are:
1) Why did they wait so long to do this?
2) Why are they seeking to the rights to the fallen flags?
3) Why aren't BNSF, NS, CP and CN taking similar action?

The only conclusion that I can draw from all of this is GREED!!!! And if there is one thing in this world that I can't stand, it's GREED!!!!! UP can call their action any damn thing they want. They can try to convince people that they are DEFENDING THEIR VALUABLE TRADEMARK. But in MY eyes they look like IDIOTS!!!!!! GREEDY IDIOTS!!!! I am not alone in this view.

Win or lose in court, UP is losing in the court of public opinion. In my mind, their grand history is tarnished by this action. This lawsuit is a BADWILL gesture, the GOODWILL is over. In the blink of an eye, UP has managed to destroy it's image. Nothing anyone says will change my mind about this.

You are entitled to your opinion Elliot. But you are wrong my friend. The thousands of dollars I spent to secure my trademarks and the couple of times I have had to defend them from illegal use puts me on the side of UP.

[Anonymous]

I respect that you are entitled to your own opinion, Jack, but you have to realise we are not denying the fact that UP does have the right to charge for the use of its logo. We are simply very angry that they have decided to do this and think that it's stupid, that's all.

[3railguy]

I JUST GOT BACK FROM THE DOCTOR......... I'VE BEEN DIAGNOSED TO HAVE CANCER.....FROM UNION PACIFIC DIESEL EXHAUST SMOKE!!!!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sask_Tinplater

I respect that you are entitled to your own opinion, Jack, but you have to realise we are not denying the fact that UP does have the right to charge for the use of its logo. We are simply very angry that they have decided to do this and think that it's stupid, that's all.

Sask, you are wise well beyond your years, and you write well too!!!![^]

Jack, I'm sorry that you have had trouble in the past regarding trademarks. They must have been very good art work for someone to want to use them. Small businesses have a very difficult time with trademarks, because they are so expensive to create and defend. Many people will take them, just to test you and see if you will respond. That part sucks.

UP is bigger than that, and the fact that they want the rights to the fallen flags shows their true motives here. The dollars involved are trivial, and the damage to UP is NIL. Actually, Santa Fe set the reverse precident when the F-3's came out, and used their arrangement with Lionel to promote their public image. Successfully too.

A lot of people beside me and Sask are angry about all of the negative publicity that UP has created by pressing this issue. This has been on the back burner for the better part of a year, but filing this week has moved it right up front.

Someone posted a link to a story a while back about some of the stockholders being angry over this issue at the annual meeting. If the stock holders think this is a bad idea, why press it. I don't think the national media has gotten a hold of this yet, but if they do, heads may roll at UP.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sask_Tinplater

I respect that you are entitled to your own opinion, Jack, but you have to realise we are not denying the fact that UP does have the right to charge for the use of its logo. We are simply very angry that they have decided to do this and think that it's stupid, that's all.

I agree. Angry I can see. Saying they are WRONG is another matter. Thanks![:o)][:o)]

[bobblaisdell]

Win or lose in court, UP is losing in the court of public opinion. In my mind, their grand history is tarnished by this action. This lawsuit is a BADWILL gesture, the GOODWILL is over. In the blink of an eye, UP has managed to destroy it's image. Nothing anyone says will change my mind about this.
--------------------
I agree with this 100%. Even if UP wins they lose more than they win IMHO.
Ship it on the UNION PATHETIC [:(!]
Bob Blaisdell

[FJ and G]

UP is so pathetic they are saying the reason they are charging fees is to protect the UP look in Lionel trains and others.

Come on! Lie to us some more UP!

The reason they are collecting fees is simple: to bilk us. Nothing more, nothing less.

Do you think for just a minute that UP would, say, refuse to allow UP's logo on a Beep because UP never had Beeps? No way, man. They'd gladly collect their fees.

(BTW, I'm just using Beep as an example; I don't know if the company that makes them actually paid its fees).

Dave Vergun

[Anonymous]

GREEDY,GREEDY,GREEDY that is exactly what UP is.Has anyone managed to connect the fact that UP has a major shortage of train crews on their hands and when was the last time you drove out west on a major interstate highway that runs next to UP right of ways.Did you notice the number of trains parked in the middle of nowhere while their crews take their mandatory break.UP at this time contrary to popular opinion is losing their shirt due to the shortage of 4000 train crews 4000 big number isnt.A close freind of mine drives truck to the west coast every week and when he gets home he tells me that he see's more and more of UP's trains parked along the tracks every week the number is rising.UP has to recupe their loses somewhere.All this law suit stuff started about the same time that UP gave the press release about being short 4000 train crews and losing part of the ups contract that BNSF so graciusly stepped up to handle.UP says that on a ten dollar item the fee is only pennies on the dollar.So what about a $1499.00 dollar locomotive time 200 locomotives.It may not sound like a lot but believe me when you start adding it all together it will add up to a good chunk of money.And the fallen flags bit is rediculous.[:(!]
And 3railguy I'm very sorry to hear that kind of news you will be in our prayers.

[Anonymous]

"You have to charge everyone OR no one. Why now? "

You don't have to charge at all to protect your trademark. You can also set the fees to whatever you desire. There are a lot of license's that do no involve the exchange of money, just an acknowledgement of ownership and a review of the material to determine acceptible representation.

[Anonymous]

I posted this over on OGR. It probably makes more sense to post it here.

QUOTE: Whether you like the UP or not, they are entitled to protect their trademarks, and they are entitled to collect royalties on those marks. The UP has filed for trademark protection on the fallen flags & is repainting cars with the fallen flag logos. This clearly shows intent to use the trademarks, at least to me.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with TAG18 & the others that say UP is within their rights. I believe UP will win this case & Lionel & Athearn will have to pay. And so will we. You may not like it, and you can of course boycott UP labeled stuff if you want.

It's amazing how upset people are getting over this issue. You'd think the UP was trying to take away the food from your family table. Last I looked, toy trains aren't a necessity for life. If you can't afford $5 - $10 more for a $500-$1000 locomotive, maybe you shouldn't be buying the $500-$1000 locomotive in the first place?

Just my $0.02 worth.

Now, it's been pointed out that the license agreement that UP has on their site calls for 3% royalties and some pretty intrusive verification practices. This means my $5-$10 is more like $15-$30. I still don't see that the price increase would be that onerous.

Regarding the intrusive verification processes, you can at least negotiate with the guys in order to come up with something more pallatable. Lionel & Athearn are not negotiating at all. Either they really do think that they would win any suit brought against them, or they're just plain stupid. Maybe Lionel is hoping that MTH wins their suit & so Mike Wolf would have to deal with the UP suit.

In any event, I still think UP will win the suit and we'll end up paying.

Oh, and if Mike Wolf ends up owning Lionel, I think I'll switch to HO. At least DCC decoders are $12.50 a pop. I can probably get a DCC command station by selling everything O gauge I have acquired since last year.

Tony

Tony

[FJ and G]

No one has addressed this too:

Why are Lionel and Athern being singled out by Lionel. I'll bet other companies haven't paid up.
-----------------------------------------
My solution to satisfy all modelers (those who enjoy UP fees and those who hate them) would be for the price markups to occur only on UP models, not spread over all roads. That way, unless you are a UP diehard, you'd have 2nd thoughts about getting a UP train, and UP would lose fees and positive publicity. Let the market dictate!

[dougdagrump]

If they are so concerned, as they say, about appearance why are they asking for "Licensing Fees" ? Why not go forward with an agreement that pertains only to authenticity of design and application.
As for the "Fallen Flags" issue that certainly does give the appearance of greed whether it is real or not.[B)]
Forgot to add, for those who have investment holdings check to see if you have any of their stocks. Let the board know your opinion !!!!!!!!![:D]

[ben10ben]

Good point, David.

As a result of your post, I went and pulled up the list of companies currently licensed with UP.

http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/licensing/suppliers.shtml#models

None of the 3 rail O gauge manufacturers, and they, as far as I know, are still turning out models every bit as frequently as Lionel.

The only logic that I can see behind their choices is that Lionel and Athearn probably mean the most to the general public. People who have ever had any slight interest in HO know who Athearn is, and half the know world knows who Lionel is.

[FJ and G]

Yes, Lionel and Athern are the whipping boys to be made an example of.

I think they get a perverse kick out of punching on an icon.

[Anonymous]

Despite the Greedy claims by those who feel intellectual property (IP) is a myth; typically raised by those who don't create much that would ever be saleable; jealous of those that do; IP is not a myth as demonstrated by various US patent, trademark and copyright laws of this and many other countries.

Up may be barred from succeeding against Lionel because of something known as an estoppel defense; If UP waited too long or long enough that it appears that the damage is greater now and would have been less if you started your action earlier, then Lionel may be able to use this defense and a laches defense;

The problem is when it comes to IP damages the damage is presumed. Also, Lionel knew or should have known that using the UP logos belonged to UP and that they were using them without licensing;

If UP is successful in this suit then will go after MTH and others next;( the reason UP chose two and not all of them is to minimize the defendants, if all the defendants are in then they could more easily share legal costs); Also, not to mention that if UP wins, then look for all the other road names to file suit.

This boils down to Lionel cashing in on other's good names without paying for the right to do so. You can call it what you will; but greed is not fair except as against LIONEL.

Alan

[Anonymous]

And lets not forget the motive power manufacturers. Just as Racing Champions and other NASCAR producing toy companies have to pay for the use of car makers' vehicles (Grand Am, Lumina etc), Lionel should have to pay GM or whomever it is that makes these giant diesels. Afterall, it is the companies' design that we see in the toy models, not something Lionel invented (minus the phantom of course).[;)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Alan, congrats on your 100th post, sorry it takes such hot button legal topics get you really active, but we know that that is your line of work, and it is interesting to hear your legal insights into the case.

So what I think I hear you saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, this case could go either way. Both sides have valid points in the eyes of the law. If this is true, neither side would be likely to want to settle, and the case will procede to it's conclusion and a verdict.

I suspect that the complaint has hundreds of alegations, some easily proven, some easily denied, and some rather sticky. There are really two major issues here. The modern and past UP, and the fallen flags that the UP has absorbed over the years. I would think that it would be much easier for UP to win its own name, but not so the fallen flags, and a split verdict is a real possibility.

I have actually been saying this all along, but this is an emotionally charged issue for train lovers. I think we know where everyone's personal opinions stand, but it's the legal opinions that are most interesting here. I think it's safe to say that both legally and emotionally this is a real can of worms.

On the emotional side, will the financial gains from a legal win by UP be worth the PR loss suffered in the battle?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Amtrak Jack

And lets not forget the motive power manufacturers. Just as Racing Champions and other NASCAR producing toy companies have to pay for the use of car makers' vehicles (Grand Am, Lumina etc), Lionel should have to pay GM or whomever it is that makes these giant diesels. Afterall, it is the companies' design that we see in the toy models, not something Lionel invented (minus the phantom of course).[;)]

Jack, congrats on your 300th post. Actually, somewhere in all of this mess I saw a reply about this exact issue. Appearently there is no trademark or copyright on the design that can be enforced. Locomotive and for that matter rail car design isn't very artistic or competetive, it is functional. There may be a lot of patented elements that go into creating real trains, but models don't need any of that. Model trains seem to get a free ride here.

[Anonymous]

Elliot

Once a design is fixed in a medium a copyright automatically exists without the author taking any steps at all. ( you need to register only if you are pursunig some infringment action and want to seek statutory damages)

There is something called common-law trademark that looks to who had it and was using it first in time. Up had the name and was using it before Lionel. (there is a BurgerKing in southern Illinois that is not the BurgerKing we all know!) The only issue is why did UP wait so long to claim an infringing action by Lionel; if it was to wait until the value of the infringment was high then the laches defense applies. Why did UP wait 50 years? Maybe UP did not know about thetoy trains using their logo or maybe Lionel stonewalled them for a while and UP got fed up and took action.

The design of a new locomotive is copyrighted and usually patented.

Alan