Does anyone know at what amps the circuit breaker should trip? I have the original manual from my ZW, and all it says is "Whenever the current drawn from the transformer exceeds a certain limit...".
The numbers "1-54" on the last page imply this was made in 1954. I tried searching Olsentoy, but although they have a circuit breaker, they do not say what its rating is. I don't see any info at Lionel.com, except for the new ZW circuit board box. Back in 2003, my notes say it was tripping at 4.5 amps, and I apparently bent the bimetallic strip so It would trip at a higher level. I tested it at 7 amps for 30 seconds, and it did not trip. When is it supposed to trip?
A ZW circuit breaker should carry up to 15 amperes indefinitely but open eventually on any higher current. How long it takes depends on how great the overload is. I don't know a number for this, but with a slight overload it should trip in 5 minutes or so.
Bob Nelson
lionelsoniA ZW circuit breaker should carry up to 15 amperes indefinitely...
Thanks. That is valuable information. I measured the max that is drawn by each of the 4 posts, and the total is 12 amps, but not likely that all accessories are running at the same time, so it is usually less. I have not seen the red light come on, as the ZW is hidden from view, so I don't know if it is the ZW that is tripping out or maybe one of the PowerMasters, though that seems unlikely, as they are both set at 180 watts. This only started to happen recently, and 2 things may be related. One is that I hooked up the crossing #252 gate, and the other new thing is I repaired a 242 engine that was physically broken for many years. I did lubricate it, but it sparks a lot when it runs, and sounds like it is straining. I need to keep the ZW visible and try to recreate the cause of tripping.
Why don't you do as Bob suggested to me and I followed his suggestion. Replace the breaker with an automotive type resetting breaker. I had a ZW with defective breaker. Followed Bob's suggestion and it worked so good. Reacted faster than Lionel's. I changed the other 4 ZW's and 3 KW's.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Engine is sparking and sounds like it's straining ??? .... I have a feeling that may have something to do with tripping the breaker ..... don't overset it too high or bye bye ZW !
Ole TimerEngine is sparking and sounds like it's straining ??? .... I have a feeling that may have something to do with tripping the breaker ..... don't overset it too high or bye bye ZW !
I have not yet tracked down just what caused the tripping, nor what device actually tripped. It has run OK for a while since the first problem was noted. I want to run the 242 from a direct transformer connection to see if the straining noise if from the chopped sine wave that the 24130 PowerMaster puts out.
ChiefEagles said: "Replace the breaker with an automotive type resetting breaker."
That sounds like a good idea. Do you get them at the typical auto parts store? Can you ask for a 15 amp breaker or do you need a specific car part number?
I doubt that I will be running the 242 much, nor its sister engine, the 8042. It was sitting on the shelf for many years with a broken gear holder, and I just decided to try gluing it back together just to see if I could, and it has held together so far. But they are both very low end engines, Can't pull more than 3 or so cars, there is no "Idle" in the E-unit, no whistle, although the 8042 does smoke and puff nicely.
I use breakers like the UCB types on this page, which you can get at most auto parts stores:
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/aftermarket-17.pdf
But you can use any case style that is handy for you. Don't worry about their being rated for 12 volts DC. The AC that we use is much easier on a switch or circuit breaker; and so they will work fine with double that voltage.
I recommend replacing the ZW's circuit breaker with a 15-ampere one (its original rating). Then I would put a smaller breaker in series with each of the outputs (A, B, C, D) that you are using. Five or 10 amperes is probably all you need for any one train that you are running. This way you protect the transformer and return wiring from an overall overload and add protection that was not there for the individual circuits if they should get connected together.
lionelsoniI use breakers like the UCB types on this page, which you can get at most auto parts stores:
Thanks again for the info.
I tried running the old 242 directly from a 1033, bypassing the PM-1 PowerMaster, and it is a lot quieter. The grinding, buzzing sound is from the non-sine wave that the PM-1 puts out. I measured the stall current of the 242 when it is trying to pull more cars than it can, and it hits 6.5 amps. Typically 1 amp running by itself.
Turns out the circuit interrupter is the one internal to the PM-1 (6-24130). Again, I could not find a service manual on the Lionel site, nor at Olsen's. I have the owners manual, and true to tradition, the breaker trips "When the power limit of your PowerMaster has been exceeded.".
Is there a specific number involved? i.e. if I were to add an external breaker I would need to spec it out as a lower amperage than the internal one.
I suspect, but not yet sure it tripped due to a derailed car on one of the sidings. But it could have been the high stall current. The derailed car probably was not causing a short until the engine backed into the train and moved it. I added the PM-1 2 years ago, and have not seen it in that time. It, and the ZW sit on a lower shelf of a rolling cart where the controls are. Had to roll it out to see the lights.
Bob.MTurns out the circuit interrupter is the one internal to the PM-1 (6-24130).
I could not find any reference to what amps the breaker is set at, so I did a test, and it looks like it trips at about 9 amps.
If a circuit card is drawing excessive current because of a short circuit, the short circuit is on the card itself and it is already dead. A short circuit outside of the card reduces the voltage applied to the card and does no harm to it.
What generally kills electronics-intensive modern locomotives is high voltage. When a short circuit is cleared, the typically inductive transformer winding will often produce a very short voltage spike of hundreds of volts. Short circuits are not clean off-on events. The connection is typically made and broken many times, producing many spikes. The best way I know to get rid of voltage spikes is to put a TVS across the circuit. That's what they're made for and it's what they're good at.
Circuit breakers and fuses are good at protecting the transformer, and the wiring if the wiring is heavy enough for the circuit breaker's rating. But I would never depend on them to protect locomotive electronics.
I plan on replacing the possibly defective bi-metallic circuit breaker in the ZW with the unit lionelsoni recommended. Littelfuse UCB 15 which is a type II, which apparently means it is reset by removing the load. Type I keeps cycling on & off, and Type III is manual reset.
Taranwanderer's suggestion is a "Thermal" type requiring manual reset. I don't see the term "Slow Blow" which some fuses/circuit breakers claim to be, but the word Thermal makes me think it does not operate as fast as a non-Thermal type.
UCB breakers are thermal breakers, like most automotive breakers, and all the toy-train breakers I've seen. How a circuit breaker resets is a different matter from how it trips.
A thermal circuit breaker models the heat buildup in the wiring it protects, allowing momentary overloads without "nuisance" tripping. Residential breakers are also thermal, although they may have an additional magnetic trip set much higher than their thermal rating, to open more quickly with a short circuit.
I've heard that the chip type CB in the ZW sometimes developes metal fatigue and will start to trip too early. One solution is to replace it with a more durable BAKLITE encased CB. I think its made by Texas Instruments but don't know the stock number.
Good Luck STEVE
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