I am new to this forum so please bear with me. I never had trains as a kid, bought them now for my grandson. We bought a Lionel Penn RR set and have expanded upon it. We have an old ZW transformer which we use to power the Penn RR and another train on separate isolated tracks. Eevreything worked just fine until we decided to mount it all on a table top. As far as we can tell we did everything the same as prievious, although we now have continuous power to accessories like switches and houses. I had everything working properly then, after screwing the track (Fastrack) down to the board it appeared that we created a short. We tested ann of the wires and they seem okay. There is no continuity between the center and outide traks when I test with an ohm meter. After pulling apart and reseating all of the tracks, we then attempted to power the tracks by directly applying a wire to the center and outside track, shorted. By mistake we attached a "U" terminal wire to the center track, without the "A" the trained worked fine, suggesting that somehow the polarity became reversed and there waqs a connection to ground somehow on the outside track. The only things we have of interest is 2 "bell" buttons which are wired in serially to the power to the center rail, which gives us control on an after added sound system installed in the tender, exactly the same set up as before.
We also notice that every time the locomotive goes over a fundtion trcak, decoupler, milk car or either switch, if it is going fast enough, it will stakk, the light on the engine goes off so it appears as if it is losing power.
Any one able to put this conunundrum together? How can we be running the train with only one wire attached from the transformer to the center rail, and that wire coming from the U terminal, which I thought was a common ground, from the ZW transformer?
I noticed the words "either switch". You said you have "separate isolated tracks". Where are these turnouts located? You don't have a crossover, do you? (I mean a real crossover comprising two turnouts, not a crossing, which Lionel calls a "crossover".)
I'm not sure I understand the way you use the word "track". Three rails make up a track; but I think you are sometimes saying "track" when you mean "rail". So I'm a little fuzzy about what you connected to what.
Bob Nelson
we have an outside loop with a side track and an inside figure of eight. The two never connect or corss. The problem is with the outside loop and side track. The side track is the one with funky power and what appear to be dead spots.
Okay. Now can you describe the problem again, making a clear distinction between the center and outside rails of the track, and the two tracks? Exactly which rails of which track are connected to which transformer terminals.
sorry if I confused anyone, I am very new.
We have 2 sets of tracks, a figure of 8 attached by itself to a ZW transformer. An oval track which has a siding attached by 2 switches on the ouside of the oval this is also attached to the ZW but to a different set of contacts. The 2 switches are attached for power to another set of contacts on the ZW. Everything worked fine until I screwed tracks down to the board, then we started getting a short on the oval/siding tracks. We tried everyting to try to find the short, could not find anything. As I said, it was working then suddenly stopped working. Through a series of trosals and errors, we discovered that if you attach the center track of the oval to the "U" terminal on the transfoirmer and do not connect the outer track to the lettered terminal, the train on the oval track works fine. This makes no sense to me since I thought "U" is a ground and the letter is power. that seems to work fine on the figure of 8 which, as I stated, is attached to a different set of terminals with the center rail connected to the lettered terminal. (on ther ZW the upper terminals are all labelled U, the lower terminals are labeled a to d.)
a separate problem is that whenever the locomotive crosses a switch, left or right 027 remote switch, or an uncouple straight track or a track which controls the milk car set up, the engine loses power. As long as it has momentum it makes in throug, but sat slow speeds it comes to a halt.
This is all confusing to me. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
This is most likely unrelated to your problem, but...They have had problems with the operating track for Fastrack. In some cases, it can remain energized causing the surrounding roadbed to melt. From what I have read, it seems like the push button on the controller can easily get stuck. Just want you to watch out for it. I have a mid sized Fastrack layout and have not had any problems, but do want you to not have such a problem.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
Taking a stab at your problem, your train should not run on the oval with only one wire connected to the transformer. This would indicate that there is a feedback to the transformer via some other connection. Are you powering the magnet of the uncoupling track from the transformer? I see you mention 0-27 switches, Are they really 0-27 switches or other that you are running off of fixed voltage? Are your wires from the inner figure 8 running table top under the fastrack where a screw is shorting them out. I think you have to look for an electrical path from the outside rails back to the transformer.
I think I know what's happening. You are trying to operate O27 turnouts from a fixed supply. You have probably connected one of the ZW's A-to-D terminals to one of the turnout terminals, the one closest to the switch machine if you're using 1122 or 5122 turnouts. That terminal is connected internally inside the turnout to the outside rails. Without modifying the turnouts' internal wiring, there is no way to power those turnouts from a fixed supply; they are designed to be powered only from the track.
I may be using the incorrect term, the "turnouts" or "switches" are Fastrack right and left. I mistakenly stated 027, I think they are 036. Anyway, there is a jumper from the center track which powers the light and switch. We removed the jumber and yes wired directly to a set of posts on the ZW. I guess the assumption is that doing so, somehow connected the ground of the ZW to the outside track, although we did not see any jumper, only removed one. Will try tonight to remove the power to the switch from the ZW and see if the train stops running, that will prove that point. Now the question is why does it appear that we are getting power from a "U" terminal onto the center track.
There should be 3 terminals near where the jumper was. They are labeled "AUX GND", "AUX IN", and "TRACK JUMPER". The jumper you removed should have been between the AUX IN and TRACK JUMPER terminals. You should have attached the A-to-D transformer terminal to AUX IN and (I think optionally) the U transformer terminal to "AUX GND".
I am still having trouble understanding your postings. I think you are still mixing up the words "track" and "rail". A track has three rails. You have an inside track and an outside track. Each track has a center rail and two outside rails.
If you connected one of the A-to-D terminals of the transformer to AUX GND, you have probably connected it to the outside rails of the outside track. When you connect the U transformer terminal to the center rail of the outside track (if that is what you did), you are powering the track with the transformer output that you intended to power the turnouts.
If can verify what transformer (postwar, not modern, ZW, right?), turnouts (Fastrak O36, right?), and track (Fastrak, right?) you are using and, especially, if you can describe what terminals of what (transformer, turnouts, track) are connected to what, that would help greatly in identifying the problem.
I said I am a neophyte. I didn't know a rail from a track.
We wired the Fastrack switch by removing the jumpoer and attaching a wired from the A-D terminal of the ZW to the Aux in and the Aux Gnd to the U on the ZW. They work great. When we then hooked a cob=nnection beytween the center rail and another a-de terminal we had a short. We then found that if we attached th wire from the center rail to a U terminal the train worked fine, without either oif the other rails being attached to the ZW. I know it sounds weird, we are tearing our hair out, although everything seems to work fine.
The only remaining problem is that the locomotive stalls if it crosses the swirch or either uncouple tracks without enough speed. The tracks work fine otherwise. We cleaned the rails, no help. It appears the stall occurs right over the center of the uncoupling track or over plastic rail on switch. Happens with both locomotives we have.
The only thing that complicated the wiring was that we added 2 push button 65906, sound activation buttos wired in series between the center ril and a u terminal on the ZW. These control the bell and horn that I mounted in the tender mounted sound system, which is a new lionel product.
I have to agree with Bob, the fixed voltage of one of the lettered terminals of your ZW is attached to a terminal on the switch/es, that is then common with the outside rails of your track. If you attach the U terminal to the outside rails as you want to, then you expereince the short you talk about. I would expect a short under this condition.
Then you went to trail and error, disconnected the lettered power wire from the ZW, and hooked the U terminal to the center rail. Trains then ran, which would be correct, only you thought you were using only 1 wire in the powering of the train. I can see this too, but in truth your second wire is the fixed voltage wire going out to the switch/es, and you now think that the polarity AU is wrong.
Proceed as Bob recommends...identify your switches again (Fastrak 036, PW ZW transformer, and Fastrak track. Also the terminals used on the switches for fixed voltage. Since you previously said 0-27, I would like to rule out Super-O which is also 36 inch radius and has provisions for fixed or track power.
After working this out, you should be able to test your trains and report on how things are working, and if still a concern the slowdown can be addressed.
Good luck, but I think we are on the right (train of thought).
Thanks a lot, you guys sent us in the correct direction.
We disconnected the switches from the ZW and connected them to another transformer (the Fastrack book actually said that is the preferred way to go). Then we fixed the connection to the track, this time the inner rail is connected to the A terminal on the ZW and the outer rail is connected to the corresponding U terminal. Voila everything worked well. The horn and bell work better than before, everything seems to be fine.
There is still electrical dead spots on small sections of the switches and both the uncoupler track and the accessory track (for the milk car). You can see the light at the end of the steam locomotive click off and on as it goes over these dead spots. The dead spots seem to correspond to about 1 1/4 inch of inner rail while the pick ups under the locomotive are 3 inches apart, so we are baffled. We put an old post war locomotive wich is much longer on the track and it neiuther stalls, nor does its light flick on and off. Unfortunately, its horn does not work and it only goes forward so it is not as much fun for my grandson (or for his father and I as well). Will see if any one has a way to economically fix this long locomotive (It is a diesel Lackawanna 2321 locomotive, it has a battery compartment for the horn, but even when we put a battery into it, no horn, and I can't figure out what needs to be done to make it reverse, there is a lever on the bottom of the locomotive, but it doesn't appear to do anything.).
I'm glad to hear you're making progress. It might be interesting to put a voltmeter between the outside rails of the outside loop and that AUX GND terminal. If you get zero volts, then you could try experimentally connecting them together. If that works, you could remove that connection and then try powering the turnouts again from a ZW terminal, connected to AUX IN.
You might have a bad pickup roller on the 2321. Try putting a patch of about an inch of tape on the center rail, out in the open away from the trouble spots and see whether that causes the locomotive to hesitate. That would be a giveaway that one of the pickups isn't connected.
As for the horn, try lifting the armature of the horn relay to close the contact, to see whether the problem is in the horn, dry cell, or their wiring. You don't need track power for this, or even to be on the track.
The lever should enable the e-unit (reversing unit). The switch is the L-shaped end of the lever touching a rivet on an insulating board, to power the e-unit solenoid (coil). As those age, they loosen up to where that might not be making contact. If so, the easy fix is to bend the end of the L to move it closer to the rivet. (It's pretty tough; you'll need some stout long-nosed pliers.)
I just thought to warn you: When you put the shell back onto the 2321, be careful not to tighten the screws on the ends. In fact, you might want to put a washer or two between the shell and the frame. It is very easy to crack the plastic shell, which was apparently made a little too long.
ToxDoc, by the way! Don't feel too bad about the reverse issue or the malfunctioning horn. Fixable issues.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
You are really bringing back knowledge from physics. So now i tested the continuity between the contacts on the bottom of our 3 locomotives and you were correct, on 2 of the 3 locomotives, when i tested continuity with my ohmeter, there was continuity between the 2 contacts, the locomotive which stalls shows no such continuity. Thus, i assume that when the the contact which does not conduct hits the spacer, or the plastic rail like piece, the engine stalls, similarly when it crosses the uncoupler it stalls, very interesting. Unfortunately, it is the Penn Central steam engine that is giving us the problem and unfortunately it is ove a year old. There does appear to be a way to remove the bottom of the train, any suggestions on how to see which is not connecting properly and how to fix it?
haven't gotten to the Lackawanna yet to see about the horn or reversing unit, too much work-related stuff to do, perhaps my son, the father of the little boy this all started for, will find the time to get to that.
"...i assume that when the the contact which does not conduct hits the spacer, or the plastic rail like piece, the engine stalls..." No, it stalls when the good pickup touches the plastic. The most likely fault is a broken or disconnected wire.
Super, you were so right. The wire to the front contactor was shredded and not connected. I couldn't find my soldering iron, so simply forced a wire under the base of the contacts so they connected and voila, no more stalling. It is a temporary fix, but it works.
now to get to the Lackawanna!
Thanks again!
So I had time to work on the Lackawanna. I fixed the forward/reverse problem, but am stuck with the horn. There appears to be only one wire even going to the horn! I put a D-battery into its holder and tested to see that it was making proper contact. I checked the voltage all of the way to the relay and it seemed fine. I then pushed up the metal plate on the bottom of the relay (or is it technically a solenoid?) and no sound came out. I tried to connect a wire from the batter positive terminal to the wire going into the horn and still nothing. Do I therefore assume it is the horn? What do you know about the Sound Commander 2? I installed one for my steamer and it is awesome, if I have to replace the horn anyway, and if the Sound Commander offers more than just a horn, i might be better off purchasing one of them and upgrade the sound anyway. Any ideas?
The way to check the horn with virtually no ambiguity is to:
1. Test your battery to ensure that it will produce 1.5 volts; clean the top and bottom contacts;
2, Back at the relay, unsolder the single wire that feeds the horn;
3. Unscrew and remove the horn;
4. Using alligator clips or the like, run a wire from the bottom of the battery to the metal frame of the horn;
5. Touch the wire from the horn itself to the top of the battery. Move it around a little. Get good contact with both top and bottom of the battery. If one battery doesn't work, try two or even three. Sometimes the horn diaphragm is rusted and can be jolted loose.
It should blow. If it doesn't, the horn itself is the problem. (It is possible to short-cut some of the steps above, but if you are new to this sort of thing, this method should certainly work.
These are nothing more than bicycle horns. You can get a replacement from many parts dealers, but the replacement may not sound exactly like the original; although it should sound better than a dead one.
.
If it is the horn itself that is not working, there is one final thing you can try. There is probably an adjustment screw on the thing. Try turning that back and forth from the position it is in now. But keep careful track of how much you turn it, so that you can always come back to your starting point. Turn it a little clockwise, then back, then a little counter-clockwise, then back, then a little more clockwise, and so on, testing all the while with the battery. Eventually, it will either work or you will have turned the screw so far that you have damaged the insides (which didn't work, anyway).
This seems a never ending saga. the speaker was bad. I picked up a new sund system from electric railroad and it works just great. But, now back to the reversing unit. Sometimes the system works great, even a nice neutral. but sometimes once in neutral, you can not get the train to go either forward or backward. When that happens, you need to take the locomotive off of the track, wait a few minutes, then it works fine again. When you reverese or go to neutral, you can here what sounds like a click and when that happens the train works fine. there doen't seem to be anything insie to click. Any ideas?
Sounds like you need to lubricate the E unit's(inside the diesel engine) point of contacts or the solenoid that slides up and down, be careful only to use a very small drop of oil on it.
Lee F.
I hate to show my ignorance, what is an E-unit? I see one solenoid and it seems to slide up and down well. Where are the contacts on each end? Can I send a photo of the inside and you can point out what I need to do? How do i send a photo?
It's the reversing unit. It's called that because the prewar locomotive models that had it, instead of a manual reversing switch, had an "E" suffix on their model numbers, probably standing for "electric".
The solenoid raises a pawl which turns a small plastic drum in the bottom of the e-unit 1/8 revolution every time you apply voltage to the track. The drum rewires the motor for forward, neutral, reverse, neutral, forward, and so on, by way of 6 "fingers" or brushes that contact the metal surfaces built into the drum. This rewiring amounts to swapping the connections to the brushes of the universal motor.
There is usually a switch built into the e-unit that lets you disconnect the solenoid to lock the locomotive into whatever state it was last run.
American Flyer trains have a similar but smaller reversing unit, which I avoid calling an e-unit. It does the same job with only 4 fingers.
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