Lionel 408E Question/Problem

[Anonymous]

I recently purchased a vintage Lionel passenger set that included a nice 408E.
The engine had a few renovations including new wheels. When I put the engine on my standard guage track (normal radius), I noticed that it didn't seem to run too well on the curves, so I took a closer look and noticed that two wheels on each of the "Super-Motors" actually rub up against the frame when rounding the curves. (For example, if the engine is rounding a curve to the left, on the front Super-Motor, the front left and back right wheels touch the frame, and on the back Super-Motor, the front right and back left wheels touch the frame.) Is this a known problem (or should I call it a feature?) or could it be that my wheels are somehow not correct? As an added fact, I looked closely to see how tightly the replacement wheels had been put on the axles and they are about as tight as they can be; i.e., there is no leeway for pushing these particular wheels on tighter.

Hope someone can help!

-T. Collins
Chicago

[rlplionel]

Sounds like the replacement wheels were put on too "tight" and are binding against the locomotive's frame around curves. The solution would be to "untighten" them with either a wheel puller or by placing a flat screwdriver blade behind a non-geared wheel and carefully pound the screwdriver handle with a hammer until the wheel is pulled far enough away from the frame. Do a little at a time and frequently test your work on a section of track so you don't loosen the wheel too much.

[Anonymous]

Robert,

Thanks for your feedback. One thing tho: your advice seems counter-intuitive to me, so maybe I need a little more explanation or maybe I wasn't clear enough in my description. On the 408E, the engine frame is on the outside of the wheels, so "untightening" the wheels some seems like it would only pu***hem farther towards the frame. Or perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying.

Your help is much appreciated...please let me know what I'm missing.

-T. Collins
Chicago

[Anonymous]

T. Collins,

That is not the problem. My father ran into this when restoring a 408E in 1967 and I ran into it on my 402 restoration in 1995. The issue is the wheel profile. It is incorrect on many of the reproduction wheels. Bowser and MTH seem to have a profile that is closest to the original Lionel. McCoy and some of the Model Engineering Works wheels have issues. Both MEW and McCoy wheels have tread which is too wide, which reduces the clearance between the wheels and the frame, essentiallcy causing the problem. McCoy wheels also being smaller in diameter than original wheels, with flanges that are deeper (this caused me problems on a 385E when running on Gargraves track on the garden railroad).

My father had the steel tires removed from the wheels on the 408E, and had the tread area made narrower by a machinist and the tires re-installed. My 402 has MEW wheels but is only run on 72" diameter track so it is not an issue. I no longer use McCoy wheels.

Compare any of the repro wheels to an original Lionel wheel which has not swelled and you will see what I mean.

As a side note, look at the "motor hangers". You will see that they are not offset to compensate for the asymetrical nature of the later Super Motors-having been designed originally for the early, symmetrical, short wheel base supermotor. Look at any 408E's, 402E's, and 402's (later 402's with the long wheelbase motor) from the front or rear, and you will see that the body/frame is slightly off to one side relative to the wheels. This is also part of the problem.

These are great running engines and great pullers. Keep at it!

[rlplionel]

I'm glad that Rak replied to your query with the correct solution. For some reason, I was thinking you had a steam engine. Hope you get your locomotive back on track.

[Anonymous]

RAK402,

I do indeed have the MEW wheels on my 408E so I will check into Bowser and MTH replacements! I was thinking I would have to resort to the wide radius standard guage track until I read your response, so I'll tinker with different replacement wheels and see how that goes. FOLLOW-UP QUESTION: what's the best way to pull and replace wheels on these motors...short of having to spend $60 or so on a standard guage wheel puller.

And just a note on the pulling power: even with the binding on the curves, I gave my 408E a pulling test yesterday on my approximately 12'x8' layout with 3 original Lionel State cars, a 218 derrick car, and 418 and 419 passenger cars...and it managed to pull them all, even around the corners, with no problem and with good speed, and this with a slightly underpowered (max 20 volts) transformer!!!

Final point: I did indeed notice the alignment...or should I say slight misalignment of the
motor hangers when I was taking my intial measurements to see what was causing
my binding problems. Oh well, I'll chalk it up to 1920's technology. On the other hand, we're talking nearly 80 years later and this bad boy can still pull a massive load!!!

Cheers,
T. Collins

[Anonymous]

Oops, I meant a 219 derrick car.

[Anonymous]

Any puller that will reach accross the wheel and over the flanges (while clearing the motor sideplate) and which has a small enough center to fit in the axle hole in the wheel center will work.

When you change the wheels, you will need to mount the large (bull) gears to the backs of the wheels for one side. These are staked on with a punch. Be very careful when you do this, as you do not want the gear to be shifted off-center. While you are in there, you might check all the bearings. I replaced all of the bearings, gears, idler gears, pinion gear and all of the bearings while I was in there. This can change a locomotive from sounding like a coffee grinder to a very smooth, quiet, piece of machinery.

The bearings can be pressed out. New ones can be staked in or installed with epoxy (JB Weld). Bearings should be a smooth fit without slop. I have had some that were slightly undersized in inside diameter-I line bored these with a number sized drill and got a very good fit. Loose armature bearings will result in a lot of noise (the armature will vibrate at 60 cycles-loudly.

As far as the stacked gears go, they should also fit properly. I have never found replacements for the idler gear shafts. MTH gears are the best replacements that I have found. Others I have used were not concentric.

One last comment, you might want to try the 72" or even the new 82" diameter curves. Everything runs much better.

You are right about these engines. They are outstanding. They are pretty much the epitome of the Pre-War Classic Period.

Have you tried a 400E yet?

[Anonymous]

I have found some R/C car shim washers that fit the standard gauge axles very closely. These were useful in getting the gauge exactly at 2-1/8". By the way, forget "back to back" spacing. The gauge is measured at the intersection of the flange and the tread.

[Anonymous]

RAK402,

Thanks for all the tips. Fortunately, whoever did the previous restoration work on my engine did the bearings, gears, etc., so I only need worry about the wheels (although it looks like they epoxied the bull gears onto the wheels!). However, I'll save all of this info for farther down the road for when I need do another motor overhaul. I think I'll order the spare parts from MTH to have on hand for when I do that. Also, I'll look into the wide diameter track. Finally, I haven't tried the 400E yet - I've sort of moved from 0 guage steam/diesel into Standard guage electrics and I find I'm fascinated by them, so it may be a while before I get into standard guage steam. But your question makes me wonder: which engine would win in a pulling contest between a 400E and a 408E?????
Any thoughts?

-T. Collins
Chicago

[lionelsoni]

If you do pull the wheels, be sure to alternate between putting only a very little force on the flange, then tapping the puller's screw until the wheel relieves the force by moving out a little, effectively driving the axle through the wheel rather than directly pulling the wheel off.

[Anonymous]

Bob,

Thanks for the wheel pulling tip. Have any tips about putting the wheels back on?
I've heard that I can use a large vise and a couple of strips of wood to squeeze them back on.

-T. Collins

[lionelsoni]

I do use a large vise. But I unscrew the steel jaws and put a 6 mm screw into one of the mounting holes and another on the other side facing it. One of the screws has its head cut off and its end trimmed slightly smaller than an axle. I can press one wheel on with the intact screw while pressing only against the axle with the other, whether or not there is already a wheel on that side. (This is very useful when one wheel fits more tightly than the other.) Or I can simulate a screw head by putting a nut (with a locknut) onto the trimmed screw and press from both sides together. Pressing only in the area of the hub reduces the risk of breaking the wheel, but it does make it harder to get the wheels square with the axle.

[Anonymous]

The 408E would probably drag the 400E backwards with no problem. The 400E has only one motor. 402's and 408's are the only Classic Period Standard Gauge locomotives with two motors.

Please keep us all posted on your progress. Standard Gauge is wonderful.

[Anonymous]

Ah yes, those two motors would do it! Now I'm wondering how the MTH version of the 408E compares, in terms of pulling power, to the original. Do you know if MTH pretty much used the same motor in their "traditional" version?

[Anonymous]

Ispy... No the MTH will have a can motor, you can not beat an original Lionel Super Motor or Build A Loco motor. MTH is just another pretty face. Stick with the genuine article. I recommend Bowser wheels, but over the last 30 years I've used them all. The only problem I've had with any of them being different, was the absence of the boss on the back of the wheel which acted like a washer. The solution was to install a flat washer on the axel before installing the wheel. This keeps the wheel flange away from the motor frame. When I encountered the problem you described, I sometimes found that the motor was in backwards. Have you tried just removing it and turning it around and trying to see if it resolved the problem? Also check your gauge? Easiest check is to see how much side to side play your wheel sets have in the motor, there should be about 1/16 of an inch. If not your wheels are not pressed on far enough. You can also check if you place the motor on a piece of straight track, hold it by the wheels and move it latterally back and forth, you should have an easy 1/8 inch movement. I am not talking about the motor moving on the axels as the wheels sit on the track. I mean the wheels as a set movement flange to flange between the rails. If your wheels are set so that the flanges just drop between the rails with no play, and you have some movement of the wheel set in the motor, then you need to press the wheels on farther. You state that the axel ends are at the ends of the wheel axel bores. No problem. To install wheels you will need a nice big vise securely mounted. Place about 3 or 4 strips of electrical tape across the jaw faces to prevent marring of the wheels. Square everything carefully and press away. If you run into a situation such as you may have where the axels reach the ends of their bores. Just back off the vise and tape a thin flat washer to the center of the wheel so the hole in the washer is over the axle bore. Press. Remove and place the washer on the other side. Press. Repeat until your gauge is correct. To remove wheels without a wheel puller which is the best method, I use a flat tipped nail punch and an 8 ounce ball peen hammer. Lay the motor on its side on a pile of soft cotton rags. Try to get it to lay as level as you can. Place the punch on the axel and give it a rap. A few raps and the axel will be down in the bore and you can get a few pieces of thinner oak in there and pry the wheel the rest of the way off if it does not come off by hand.

PS: I think the 400 may win out in the long run. Its heavier, and the lighter 408 or 402 would loose time and traction due to their lighter weights. Standard gauge is goregeous and very nostalgic. It has a graceful look to it when its running, almost like a real train. Its flying down the track yet the wheels are hardly moving. You cannot get that with O, HO, or even S. The wheels just look like a whirl with the smaller gauges, and your hardly moving, and that takes away from the look and feel for me. Enjoy....

[lionelsoni]

I'm sure LL250E is assuming that the vise jaws are smooth metal to start with. Many have very rough knurled faces. Those you would not want in contact with your wheels, even under a few layers of tape.

[Anonymous]

T,

The MTH Contemporary 408E has two large can motors and enormous lead weights in it. It would probably drag at least two original 408/402's backwards. It is much stronger and much heavier (I know, I own one original 408E, one orignal 402, and one MTH 408E w/ can motors and PS-2). All are in top shape. Note that I am a big fan of both the new versions and the originals (hence my forum name 'RAK402").

With applogies to LL250E, I do not agree with the following:

"Easiest check is to see how much side to side play your wheel sets have in the motor, there should be about 1/16 of an inch. If not your wheels are not pressed on far enough."

This is good, as far as it goes, but there should not be anywhere near 1/16" of side to side play. This is excessive. Look at the gear thickness and think about how wide the gears are vs. 1/16 of an inch. As much surface area of the bull gears and stacked gears as possible should be in contact all the time. In order to maintain this, there should be as little play as possible while maintaining the critical gauge dimensionof the 2-1/8" (measured at the intersection of the flange and the tread). This should be adjusted by shim washers until both gauge and play are correct. This is not difficult, it just takes a little time.

By the way, when pressing the wheels on, do not press on the rim of the wheel. Apply the pressure only to the hub. This will prevent "dishing" the wheel (remember, they are very soft pot metal-the spokes can bend). Using a small diameter socket from a wrench set placed over the hub on both wheels (of the same axle) will accompli***his nicely. It will also acheive the same goal that LL250E suggested using the washer for(i.e. if the axle has reached the end of the bore, but the gauge is still too wide.

I also agree that one motor mounted backwards, relative to the other would be an issue. Just make sure that the gear side of both motors is on the same side of the locomotive.

[JOHNCTRAIN]

Hi,

I am looking for the wiring diagram for the 408e. Any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

John