Lionel MPC Era

[alank]

     I missed most of the Lionel MPC era, my only experience being that I have the Spirit of 76 set.    Saturday I was given a Lionel Train set that says MPC, and it is dated for the early 70s.   It is a Southern set with a 2-4-0 loco 8203, and 3 cars, plus a caboose.   I couldn't believe how cheaply made this set is.  All plastic, and the cars weighing next to nothing.   The track too seems flimsy to other 0-27 track.  How did Lionel get to making such a set, and how did sets like this compare to Marx sets of the time.   It used to be that Marx was considered less, but I have some Marx cars, that I don't know much about, and I would say they are heads over on this MPC set.   Was this typical of Lionel of the time, and how did sets like come about?

[billbarman]

What you have there is a lowest of the line typical lionel starter set of the MPC era. Il admit, it is really cheap, but dont let that fool you! the MPC era is full of quality and wonderful items, you just have to know what they are. http://www.trainz.com/articles/MPCSteam.html  these are all the great steamers, the diesel were amazing too. the set is just what lionel offered to introduce people cheaply into the hobby.

[ADCX Rob]

Typical of starter sets for mass merchandisers.  The set & components were available at various times 1972-1975.  The cars are light due to fixed couplers & plastic wheels, but were otherwise similar to collector series with excellent graphics.  Some of these sets were DC powered, too.

The further into the catalog you go, the better the sets got with metal wheels, operating couplers, operating cars, & "premium" engines.  The Lionel line got better with each progressing year during this time. too.

Rob

[Boyd]

 My older brother got a new set in the middle 70s with an 8203 engine with red stripe and Pennsy tender. Yes its plastic but it had the electronic sound of steam and made lots of smoke. I had lots of fun with it making tunnels out of cardboard boxes and turning off the lights in the room. I put corn over the track and ran the train into it until it plowed its way through. For several years in a row my family would buy me more and more track so it was going on the floor in 2 adjacent rooms. My brothers 8203 engine and a 2026 accidently got mixed with the trash and are gone. I got an 8203 off of ebay but it doesn't run well. How well does yours run? Do you have pictures of it? Now I have about a dozen MPC era cheap plastic gondolas, 8 or so flat cars, 31 of the red # 9013 CN short hopper cars and some misc. With my limited income I'm going for quantity right now and the quality is not all that bad.

[Kooljock1]

 There was a TON of high-quality Lionel/MPC stuff made.  Some was made at least as good as Lionel Post War, and some even better.

Take a look HERE.

Many Lionel/MPC engines such as the ALCo FA, and NW-2 received up-grades from their Post War counterparts as well.

 Jon

[Frank53]

Here's sixteen pages of MPC era material posted on another forum:

[alank]

That is a nice site with the 16 pages of pictures of MPC trains.   As I said, I largely missed the MPC era.   The Lionel Corp. was changing hands as I went off to college, and the next 5 years saw no train activity on my part.   When I got out of college, I briefly got back into it, that was when I got my Spirit of 76 set, but then things got busy at work, and it was fast forward to 1992, when my son was born that I got going with trains again.   Even so, though, I had never seen much of the MPC trains while it was going on.   There weren't any stores where we lived that did trains, and even when I went to Long Island for some Greenburg shows, I didn't see it.   By 1992 we were well into the LTI era, and it was those trains that I started to supplement my postwar trains with.  Only after I moved, did I start to discover new Lionel,   Thanks for your reply...

[brianel027]

As others have said, some of those sets were obviously aimed at beginners, being sold at mass-market venues. It has taken Lionel years to gain back some of the big box retailer exposure they had during the MPC-era. It's also important to remember, Lionel had cheaper sets during the glory postwar years... sets that would not have stood up to the better products so many now remember fondly.

That said, many of the lower end trains from the MPC era are easily fixed up and improved: the plastic snap rivet that loosely holds the trucks to the car body are easily replaced with a truss screw and lock nut; plastic wheel sets can be replaced with metal wheel sets. I've taken some of the cheaper molded plastic colored cars, like the short yellow C&O or UP flat cars, masked off the car and sprayed the underside with a flat black or grey primer. The cars look much better losing that "translucent" effect.

Considering the new list prices of even the new basic Lionel stuff ($40 list for separate sale rolling stock / $30-$32 mailorder) and the price of fixing up some MPC cars becomes much more attractive.

I also happen to run a whole bunch of this very type of steamer and am very happy with them. The 8500 is a different looking steamer from all the other low end types, and another neat one for improvement projects.

Again, they are easy fix up projects where they can be repainted, have extra handrails, details and lights added, additional weight added to the chassis, etc. There's actually plenty of cast-in details - especially for low end locos - that can be highlighted with the right paint job. Any one of my small locos will pull a dozen cars with no trouble. As a test once, we had one of these 2-4-0 locos and a plastic docksider each pull a train of 25 cars. Of course, I wouldn't do that every day, but the fact remains they CAN pull a 25 car long train. Impressive, huh?

The other great thing is that parts are readily available for most of this stuff, because they were made in large quantities. Or you can easily buy a beater to use for parts. My parts guy, a well respected parts dealer, made the unencouraged comment to me, that far more of the expensive newer made trains are destined to become "shelf queens," (which is a polite word for junk), because they have no parts available - no extra parts were even made, because these are very low quantity production runs.

 

MPC stuff gets dumped on far too much. Many complain about the plastic gears being no good. Well, I've got plenty of MPC locos older than 35 years and they still run great. But I take care of them too, making sure the gears don’t get dry. So that argument holds little water for me... I read far more complaints about top-notch high-end trains not working before they're even a year old. There are those who make the biased, ignorant comment that the newer Lionel starter sets are junk too, but since I have a couple LTI period 4-4-2 steamers that are now 17 years old and still running, that's a moot point too.

Hey, a final thought on the track from one who still has MPC vintage 027 track... it's as good as any other 027 track.  Could be that the track you got has been put together and pulled apart many times, which will cause any period of 027 track to get loose and become flimsy... even postwar 027 track.

[wjstix]

In the early 70's I bought a 1950's Lionel train set from a guy at school for $3 as I recall, a 2-6-4 with two metal flat cars, a 6464 boxcar, and a caboose with some track. I expanded it with modern Lionel track from the time, I don't recall a difference in the 027 track except IIRC the newer track had brown ties instead of dark gray. Anyway, for Xmas a year later I got an MPC train set with a NKP 2-4-2 and several cars and caboose.

Actually the MPC cars were a lot more detailed than all but the 6464 boxcar from the old set. The old set's flatcars were folded metal, one yellow and one gray. The MPC gondola for example was all plastic and looked much more "scale detailed" with good graphics. The 2-4-2 wasn't as real looking as the 2-6-4 with it's heavy metal boiler, but it ran fine and I used to run them side by side on the layout a lot.

Many people liked the MPC trucks because they were so free rolling, you could pull more cars with the same engine. I didn't care for the coupers though, the old metal ones were more reliable.

Lionel at that time was aiming more at the toy train market, trains for kids. Sometimes they had some "collectible" stuff like the Disney stuff etc. but it wasn't until maybe the late seventies or into the eighties that they realized there was a market in reissuing "the good stuff" like the old Berkshires and Hudsons and such. Around that time they started doing two catalogues, one for toy trains and one aimed at the higher-priced collectible market.

I remember a friend having Marx trains around 1968-69 or so, but I don't know if they were even being made anymore in the seventies??

[kehoesj]

My sons and I started our collection in 1986, when MPC rolling stock was both plentiful and affordable.  We found by using the Greenburg's Guide to Lionel Trains 1970-1991, Volume 1 a very good reference to seek the rolling stock we were interested in, and were quite sucessful at regional train shows.  They have good quality from our standpoint and look very good on our O27 layout.  It was a way for us to quickly build our railroad empire with some quite realistic paint schemes and variety of types of cars.  We have a couple MPC era Diesels, and while they take a little extra care to operate after sitting for a while, we still enjoy them.  We have heard people trash the MPC era items, but our experience is very favorable towards this era in Lionel history.

[ADCX Rob]

brianel027

Hey, a final thought on the track from one who still has MPC vintage 027 track... it's as good as any other 027 track.  Could be that the track you got has been put together and pulled apart many times, which will cause any period of 027 track to get loose and become flimsy... even postwar 027 track.

 

Some of the earliest MPC track, some of the woodgrain(not just brown) tie variety, was of a lighter gauge steel & had rolled, hollow track pins instead of the regular solid formed wire pins. 

It didn't take too long for them to go back to the old method, retaining the brown tie color.  They also kept the new tie stamping profile(edges turned up), which is too bad, as now the 1970-up track won't slide nicely into those nice Marx rail crossings.

The brown ties must have been important to MPC, as black pigment in almost any medium is cheaper than any other color.

Rob
 

[alank]

Rob,

      That would be the track, wood grained tie, and funny looking rolled pins.  

      On a side note, I see your address says Hopewell Junction.  Are you connected to the Little Depot.   I also saw where you mentioned RIT in one of your other posts...What is your connection there...I graduated there a few moons ago, and work in Hopewell Junction.  

      On a side note2, for those in the railroad community.  Yesterday was the opening of the Walkway over the Hudson.   This is the former Pougkeepsie Railroad Bridge.   While I would like to still see the trains out there, I think this walkway is a wonderful thing.   The views will be great, and it gives a new lease on life to the bridge.   You never know, as time and the community grows, you might need regional rail, and it could again find another use.   In the meantime people will enjoy it for its outdoor use, and the railtrails.  

      Thanks for your responses on the MPC era.   I looked at those 16 pages and thought it was to bad I missed that era, but that is the way it was.   Enjoy your trains

[ADCX Rob]

alank

On a side note, I see your address says Hopewell Junction.  Are you connected to the Little Depot.   I also saw where you mentioned RIT in one of your other posts...What is your connection there...I graduated there a few moons ago, and work in Hopewell Junction.

 

Hopewell is an agricultural/rural suburb of Rochester on the former Auburn Road division of the New York Central(now the Finger Lakes Railway)  We had big PRR presence here too, now it's a rail-trail.  The Rochester & Eastern bisected the town "back in the day"... parts of that nearby are rail-trail too.

The RIT meets are very convenient for us.

[alank]

Rob,

      I see Hopewell, NY and my eyes or mind automatically add the Junction to it.   Hopewell Junction is in southern Dutchess County.  It was on the New Haven Railroad.   Today what is still there is part of Metro North, and the branch going to Poughkeepsie and the Bridge is going to be a bike path...parts of it already are, but it isn't complete at this time.   This was formally the Maybrook Division on the New Haven...Your area had a lot of interesting railroad too...I saw some of it when I was at RIT, but truthfully there wasn't much training at that time.   We were kept plently busy with school.

[lionelsuperotrack]

Wow! What a great MPC steam link. I had never seen it before.

 Mike Spanier

[krapug1]

During the MPC era a "dual structure" was featured for most of it. The "traditional line" had a strong emphasis on starter sets, and sets like you mentioned with plastic 2-4-0, or 2-4-2 steam engines were made to keep costs down, and were often sold at chains stores like Toys R Us, and Kiddie City. The 9500 series passenger cars were also an MPC invention, and they got better with each year that passed. A better line of starter sets featured a die-cast 4-4-2 steam engine was also made, and these engines are work horses, and they feature smoke, and the MPC invnetion, the Mighty Sound of Steam. Two of these engines also feature an electronic whistle (C & O, and Milw Road). The "collector" line focused on Post War re-issues, and there are some gems to be found here including the F-3's whicg got better and more detailed and time went by. There are some great books on the MPC era, including the McComas/Tuohy series that go into great detail on how the entire General Mills era came into being. Enjoy Ken

[Fox14120]

 Know how you feel alank. Was out yesterday at a antique store and found a box of Lionel stuff an engine,tender, 4 cars and a lot of track and a few lock ons for $28.  Looked the stuff over quick didn't know if it'd run but figured i could fix it if it didn't since nothing looked to be missing off the engine or tender so bought it. Got it home and looked at it better. To that point i only owned a post war set and have seen the new stuff Lionel has so was surprised and disappointed initially when i got this 2-4-0 Southern No 8140 out of the box and took a closer look at it and seen how it looked like it wasn't finished with the detail in plastic but not painted and was really disappointed when i figured out what that wheel under the tender did. It actually did run and though it shows how far away they got from the post war era stuff it's not that bad to me even though it's plastic it doesn't feel as delicate as my post war set and i'm not that worried about breaking it like my post war stuff. The rolling stock needs some work to get the couplers to work. I already had a few from that time period with my post war set so wasn't surprised at the one working coupler per car. Compared to pre, post war and modern era stuff they're no where close but still really not that bad. I know O gauge stuff are considered toys but never looked at pre or post war suff as toys alot of toys today aren't built that good as the Lionel stuff back then was but the MPC era stuff definatly lives up to that toy status to me.

[wyomingscout]

 Can't speak about the MPC stuff, but my first train was a Lionel Scout in 1951.  It is considered a very cheap set & not worth much (no lights, smoke, or electric uncouplers.  No turnouts of any kind.) but it was all Santa could afford back then.

We had no TV & got no catalogs, so I never knew about the fancy rigs like the F3 diesels,  accessories, etc.  I ran the heck out of that train & still run it sometimes.  Look at some of the prices today; I'm glad there are still some lower end train sets available for young parents & young kids.  I think the '70s were some tough times for Lionel, too.

Nothing against the fancy prototypical expensive trains; they are fantastic!  I keep asking Santa for some of them.

wyomingscout

[winrose46]

I started in this hobby when my father gave me the 681 turbine and 25xx passenger cars.  I would walk to the Rockville Hobby shop at least once a week for many years with my leaving money on layaway items.  I left by 1962 because what I perceived as the poor quality and lightness of the rolling stock. Each time I looked at trains since then, I was turned off by my perception of Lionel's quality for 40 years even though I continued to have a Christmas layout.  I finally got back into purchasing new equipment with the Kline Hudson in 2003 and then the Lionel USRA 0-8-0 of the same time frame. I am completely command now and my son will be getting my PW equipment this Christmas.

[railroaded]

  MPC is what it is. It ain't the Lionel glory years of O-Gauge like say the early 1950's, but the mid-to-top of the line product from the MPC time is my favorite to collect. Just generalzing here, by MPC time they offered Postwar style locos with most of the original problems, or complaints fixed, but with the good features of the postwar period retained and they were mostly made in the good 'ol USA, not to mention, because they are what they are, the cost is almost always much less than the originals. I don't have any interest in the new, overpriced, Chineese junk, overstuffed with electronic garbage that the company makes today. In some way a big part of the Lionel appeal for me died when they went overseas to make their trains, I just can't get past it, they were an American institution in my mind and now that concept seemes to have been corrupted somehow. Another thing that appeals to me about MPC Lionel was the fact that they were the new stuff of my childhood period, so for me, they are a perfect fit, because only now am I able to go out and buy the items I saw in catalogs as a kid in the 1980's....

[nickaix]

railroaded

In some way a big part of the Lionel appeal for me died when they went overseas to make their trains, I just can't get past it, they were an American institution in my mind and now that concept seemes to have been corrupted somehow.

 

I'm with you there.  I can't look through a current Lionel catalog without thinking of that.  When my brother and I were kids, my dad got back into O-gauge trains, and purposefully bought ONLY Lionel because it was American made.

But regarding MPC, my first train purchase was a very-well-worn MPC Wabash 2-4-2 and caboose, bought at a meet for $25, not an insignificant sum for an 11 year old kid!  I was a little disappointed to find that it had no neutral, but it had smoke and sometimes even the the sound of steam :)  I did nothing to lube or maintain that engine, but it never complained.  It's since become a "parts engine", but I still have the motor and it still runs just fine.

Another good thing about MPC is the variety of rolling stock available for dirt-cheap. Since I work weekends, I end up doing most of my shopping on ebay. Not too long ago, I got a B&O Sentinel boxcar from 1980, basically a 6464 reissue, MINT, for $12.50.  I got the standard-O version of the same car (class of '73, kinda dirty) for a buck less than that.  Compare that to new stuff. Compare that to postwar stuff!