Like the 70s Chevy commercials expression of "hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet",,, what happened with Lionels place in America where it used to dominate christmas scenes, around the tree and store displays. Did they get too expensive or was it a fad of the 40s and 50s? Did they lose quality? Was it slot car tracks in the 60s? Was it Lionel going cheaper in the 70s? On TV as I type this is a Tim Allen movie I think one of the ones he turns into Santa. A christmas scene had a cheapy plastic off brand or maybe Bachman G scale size train. And was it about 20 years ago the first "Home Alone" movie when he mounted the human cutouts on the operating train,,, and the train was G scale? Maybe a Lionel train wouldn't handle those cutouts in that movie. Trains have plenty to compete with these days with all the high tech video games, an endless amount of information and connectivity with the rest of the world via the web. There is also the more and more school activities that some parents push their kids into. Could Lionel make a train that has lots of operating cars that you could control the entire train via your home computer?
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Boyd, don't know the answers to all that, but some people do operate their layouts with computer - I've seen some on TV train shows.
As for me, I like handling the cars and accessories, even the derails. So does my grandson. He loves playing with the automobiles & trucks, too. Running the crane car, sawmill, & others is a hands on game for most of us.
wyomingscout
A Lionel train will dominate our Christmas tree this year just as it has in the past.
Earl
Most kids today are far too absorbed into electronic gizmo's and video games than to be "bored" with watching toy trains go around in circles. I think some would say it takes too much effort to interact with such a thing.....its just really a shame. I live the simple life and i am glad i do.
cabooseboy Most kids today are far too absorbed into electronic gizmo's and video games than to be "bored" with watching toy trains go around in circles. I think some would say it takes too much effort to interact with such a thing.....its just really a shame. I live the simple life and i am glad i do.
While I agree with what you say, a certain amount of the "blame" goes with Lionel as well. When they reintroduced the line in the 1970's it appeared to me that they deliberately decided to ignore the mass market. All of their train sets were "Special Editions" and priced accordingly. As if they were deliberately marketing directly to the toy train collector, probably on the assumption that "kids today are far to absorbed in eletronic gizmo's". You could only find their train sets at hobby shops, or through MRR related publications. Only within the last 5 years or so have I begun to see their sets in mass market outlets like HobbyLobby and various local hardware stores.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
Electric Trains are still part of the Christmas Tradition for a very small percentage of the American population. The last couple generations have been brought up with electronic games and hardware that has nothing to do with electric trains, just the way it is. IMO, as our generation fades away the Electric Train Christmas Tradition will continue to shrink.
Bill T.
stebbycentralWhile I agree with what you say, a certain amount of the "blame" goes with Lionel as well. When they reintroduced the line in the 1970's it appeared to me that they deliberately decided to ignore the mass market. All of their train sets were "Special Editions" and priced accordingly.
That is absolutely untrue. Modern Era Lionel had mass market sets in every catalog. They hired Johnny Cash to advertise their trains. The first "special editions" were the gold Chessie GP-7 and the B&O F3. I don't recall whether the F3 was advertised as a limited edition, the gold Chessie certainly was. General Mills purchased Lionel because they thought the time was right for Lionel to make a comeback. From what I see on the various boards, many of today's "O" gauge fans got their start with MPC trains. And I see lots of mass market MPC stuff being offered on Ebay, with the sellers claiming the items to be family train sets.
In our early years of marriage we had very little money but I had a lionel train that santa had brought. It ran under the tree every christmas, a couple plasticville building and no gifts. But the train was there and that made it christmas anyway.
Todays world has changed where toy trains don't mean much to kids or even many parents who grew up with other types of entertainment.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
The charisma of a Lionel train around the Christmas tree has been with me since 1949. It is a part of Christmas.
I think the values have changed with the newer generation. They would rather "text-message" under the tree.
As with Chevrolet..." Baseball, hotdogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet" was a big slogan for many years. I think GM missed the ball on that one, big time. Maybe the new " Company" will do better.
60 years of Facts.
60 years ago the general public TOOK THE TRAIN, to work, to visit relatives, to go on vacation! Kids and parents, on board trains, going somewhere, it was fun. To have a (Lionel) toy train extended the joy long after the trip. Lionel understoud that if they promoted Railroading and Railfaning, then the buying of toy trains followed. In 1955 the Turnpikes and Interstate Highways started to take away the short haul and commuter traffic. In 1958 the Jet Airliner (707 & DC8) took away the long haul travel. The passenger railroad died, and with it the contact between the public, the children, and the railroads.
Today many of you never see a Passenger Train, others maybe once a day. Sorry, Passenger Service may never return to your area. A few densely populated sections of this country has a "rebirth" of railroad passenger service. In these areas, with growing traffic jams, Commuter Rail Service is growing fast, lines are being extended, lines out of service for 30 years are being rebuilt. Interstate Passenger Service by Amtrk becomes clean, fast, and frequent. I live in the Northeast, I can drive 35 miles and watch passenger trains, 4 or 5 or more an hour. Some Commuter Rail, some Regional, some Acela Bullet Trains, and all those people riding and the people watching are potential customers for toy and model trains.
What goes around comes around!
Don U. TCA 73-5735
It wasn't until I re-entered the toy-train hobby as an adult that I learned of the tradition of running trains around a Christmas tree. Somehow, it never came up when I was a kid. I put a simple loop on the carpet now at Christmas.
Some of the best passenger railroading is happening in the least populated part of the country. The Alaska Railroad (not Amtrak) runs daily trains between Fairbanks and Anchorage (weekly in winter), through spectacular scenery and past Denali. The depot in Fairbanks has to be seen to be believed. It was even built to include an HO layout run by a local club.
http://www.akrr.com/
Bob Nelson
What Don U. posts, about people taking train rides for trips, or to work and which caused an exitement for some, or most people to want electric model trains, makes sense to me. I remember our excitement when my father took my brother and me to see prototype trains and later the three of us had fun playing with father's Lionel prewar '027' gauge trains.
My family runs a Lionel train around our Christmas tree annually and a couple of Christmases ago, our daughter and her family ordered from Santa a Lionel, '0' gauge, 'North Pole Central Lines' train set, which is now the family Christmas tree train.
Ralph
While growing up my father always had his prewar childhood Lionel set up at Christmas. Never any fear of any of us damaging it of breaking. It was there for us all to enjoy and have fun "playing" with it. Once married I continued the tradition even before my kids were born, when it was only my wife and I. My wife bought a early post war "starter" set up from a local neighbor that was selling his collection. He gave her an awesome deal since we were "not collectors looking to buy his trains to sell and make money". Well after my kids were born the tradition has continued. Now my kids are grown and my daughter got married a little over a year ago. Last year she asked me if I have enough "extra" so that here and her husband could have a train around their tree. Let me tell you...what ever I didn't have, I was going to get for her! I am sure the tradition will continue with her (psst...first grandchild's set is already in the closet! Now just need the grand baby! wish Mom and Dad would get "busy"!)
All we can do is pass on the tradition and hope it will get passed on.
Lionel doesn't dominate Christmas SALES any more for the same reason that nobody has those clockwork VWs with the big key sticking out of the rear. Likewise, how many operating Studebakers are tooling along the Interstate highway network that was barely started when the mark curled up and died?
Some companies go with the flow and change with the changing times (Pilliod makes furniture instead of Baker valve gear parts) - and some don't. Lionel-size 0-gauge electric trains went out of fashion as Christmas gifts, replaced by other items which, in turn, have gone out of fashion. Will they ever return to their once-high level of popularity? Not unless somebody cancels the silicon revolution.
FWIW, I gave my grandson a large-scale Lionel train for Christmas. He played with it for a while, before going back to his fire trucks. (His mother, my daughter, is a Nashville Metro firefighter-paramedic.)
Chuck (Operating real tinplate in a full-scale manner)
Many places still have Christmas layouts. Recent store fronts such as Bloomingdale's, Macy's, etc. in NYC have had such. Also, they have a spectacular layout as a seasonal special at Grand Central in NY (ask Roy about that one). So, trains are around, and become evident in a lot of places around the holidays. Sets like the Polar Express and Hogwarts Express are attempts from Lionel to hit the next generation for trains. While we don't see trains on every Christmas show, or in the number of stores and homes like they used to be, it raises a challenge for us to share our hobby and introduce a kid to a train.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
This has been an interesting thread so far. While times have changed, as far as the average person's everyday connection to real trains, there are other more profound circumstances.
Certainly it is not entirely the fault of Lionel itself. As pointed out, Lionel MPC did mass market trains and I recall seeing an extensive array of Lionel trains and accessories for sale at K-Mart duing the 1970's. Richard Kughn also tried to break into that market... take a look at the 1992-1993 Lionel catalogs in particular.
Adult buyers who remember the best of the postwar period tend to be a little harsh on the MPC-period of Lionel. Certainly there were cost-cutting measures, but the trend of more plastic was common-place in toys made during the same time. People tend to forget there were some very cheap sets made during the postwar years too, going head to head against the low cost MARX trains.
But I'm surprised no one has mentioned another trend. By conservative estimates, 40% of kids in American today grow-up in a single parent household, usually the mother. Some of the most ardent feminists of the 1960's and 1970's have done 180 degree changes in their opinions on marriage, but it hasn't changed things.
It has also been a long on-going trend that both parents (of the kids who are lucky enough to have both still married) are both working full-time outside the home. A big change from the postwar years so many of us grew-up in where only dad worked. And if mom did work, chances are it was at school or something of the like where she could be home when the kids got home.
It's little surprise to me that toy makers have followed this trend of making toys that have become "electronic babysitters" to keep the kids amused while either dad and/or only mom are at work. Or at home because they're too tired or have to catch up on all the things around the house to do.
Then, there's the population shift of the US due to job losses, from the northeast (where trains have long been most popular, and homes had basements for train layouts) to the far west and south, where homes typically don't have basements.
Or nevermind "work" itself. We American's spend more time and effort today on "entertainment" than any other generation of American's. I know this is my personal opinion, but why would anyone need 200 channels on TV? When is there time to watch that much TV? And many people spend themselves into debt by getting the "package" deal with extened cable, high-speed internet and phone coverage. The enterainment business loves all this: every decade when there is some new advance, everyone runs out to buy the movies they already own on VHS, but now on DVD. Wait, now it's Blue-Ray. Same goes for the music business.
I think there are a lot of parents out there who want to be "entertained" as much or more so than their kids. Matter of fact, so many times I have read comments from today's adult Lionel customers who get upset when Lionel puts more effort into trains aimed at kids, worried that the "adult" trains might not get made. How selfish can we get?? Lionel makes a Polar Express set, which turns out to be a huge hit. What do the adult buyers say? They whine back, "when are you going to make a prototypical scale version with the correct whistle?" To me, it's just the epiome of selfishness: we adults have so many choices and so many trains, yet it is never enough. It begs the question, who ARE the real children here?
Which doesn't bode entirely well today for a participatory hobby like toy trains. Ironic that so many of us who grew-up with Lionel Trains and have such fond memories of them, also have fond memories of setting them up and building a layout with DAD's help. Today, the households that do have train layouts, they tend to be dad's layout, not the kid's.
Joshua Lionel Cowen was brilliant when it came to marketing and advertising. But those were different times when nearly every kid had a father who was at home. And father's had the time and interest to spend with their kids. I think if JLC were alive today and at the helm of Lionel, even he would have a tough time having the same success he did only a generation or two ago.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Is the original question, why aren't Christmas train scenes common anymore, or is it why are G size trains used instead of Lionel O?? If the latter, I think it's just a matter of size. The big size trains show up better on TV and in movies because they're...well, BIG. People who know nothing about trains would recognize a big G steam engine going around the tree, where a Lionel train might not show up as well.
I've seen someone from Bachmann come on QVC a few times (usually around Xmas) selling model trains. It could be Bachmann does a better "outreach" job, connecting with the studios and providing trains to their productions.
Well if Lionel doesn't dominate Christmas any more, it isn't because I haven't tried hard enough
I add a TREE to my Trains every Year
I have SPOILED my Nephews Horribly
This one's Daddy is from New York, so being a Little Devious, his growing collection is NYC.
These two's Daddy is a Fireman/Paramedic in Canby, OR so Uncle Doug spoils them with Trains, everyone else makes up for it with the Firetrucks. The Older one's growing collection is Santa Fe, the younger one's growing collection is Union Pacific (Hey they gave him my name for his middle name) It is hard to see, but that is his Lionel Docksider that he is holding. Note for Kids give them LOTS of Gondolas, Hoppers and some Flat Cars. Their Daddy collects Great Northern.
My Sisters kidded me that the "Boys" all have trains, so they need their own, being from Portland, OR, the 4449's Hometown (since 1957 anyway) I got them each an MTH Bantam Daylight Passenger set.
I had given my then Girlfriend(now wife) and her kids some Lionel for their Tree, and last year, I was told that when Granda Pa Huey saw them, his immediate reaction was a BIG SMILE, and Fire em' up!!, so I am already picking out a nice set from my collection for my new In Laws for this Christmas.
I have given sets to each of my Step- Brother and Step-Sister's families with additions each Christmas, my Step-Sister moved to Hawaii last year, OUCH, I had no idea that it would cost $156.00 to send them a Loco and a building.
My Great Grand Father was an engineer for the CB&Q so I put together a steam freight set for my Mom, man there just isn't that many CB&Q steamers made in O Gauge, I had a heck of a time finding the Hudson jr from Lionel's 2004 set (railsounds version, not signal sounds)
I have also give sets to at least four friends for their Trees. I may not be able to put trains under EVERY Christmas Tree, but I am trying. It just isn't Christmas without a train under the Tree.
Always promoting the Hobby.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
I, and most of our friends, live in apartments. Space is at a premium. Some of us "empty nesters" have built layouts in now vacant bedrooms. The tradition that we grew up with, like seeing the Lionels around our Christmas Tree, seems to have faded into the train room. (I do not miss "woofie" running off with and hiding a car, pet hair between the wheels or my accidently stepping on the engine with my "big" feet.)
As I recall, when I was a youngster, Lionel and Marx, had less competition with the then modern technology. An electric train....wow! Imagine, operate a train in your own home, just llike the 3rd Avenue El, subway or the LIRR. You could even run the train and listen to the radio at the same time.
Only my : Times change. Will Lionel, once again, dominate Christmas scenes. Probably not. And if they never do again, is it so bad? The hobby will endure whether it is Lionel or another brand. That, to me , is the most important issue.
Cant imagine Christmas without a K-Line Lionel train under the tree.
Lionel needs to do more and get off their butt, we cant do all their promotion for them. I feel K-Line with all their faults did more to promote the hobby. I just dont feel that excitement any more. Lionel does little to keep my interest going, its more just a habit that I default to the Lionel legend.
Sadly it's marketing and culture in general. Culture because of planes and car trains aren't in really in the average persons vocabulary anymore. Most people today forget that train travel is still an option for travel and didn't go out with the old west (where most the time is the only only place where trains show up now). Don't know if it's because of the area i live in or like it all over but there aren't many trains around anymore in the same sense as there were even as little as 10 years ago. Didn't have much trackage out here to start but been looking at older maps from 20-30 years ago and most the trackage around me from then has now been ripped up and been taken away. With all that and all the gadgets and how most kids if not families are on the move these days with stuff going on there's no time for that bonding time like there was 20+ years ago. The best on average an "average kid" can hope for is a quick game of catch with his father mostly because people today don't know how to stop relax and catch their breath and take a little time to enjoy their life. Everyone here's is prob guilty of that at one time or another. Because the concept of that has escaped most people today it's pointless to use it in marketing which everyone can agree was a major selling strategy of Lionel for many years in that Lionels were a great way for fathers and sons to bond. Christmas has gotten to commerical also and don't want to say the message is lost but it's definatly being drowned out. Use to be there were certain staples at Christmas time that kept people somewhat rooted like movies and tv shows that reminded us what Christmas were once like. Now most of those original movies and tv shows have been remade and the originals left in DVD\VHS limbo replaced by their newer "PC" correct versions. While the newer ones have somewhat the same message alot of these older toys (including the Lionel trains or any trains for that matter) have been replaced with updated toys and gadgets so you're not looking at what Christmas's were once like but what they are now. I've been wanting to get a train for around the tree for many years but never cared much for the G gauge stuff i'd see in Rite Aid always figured i could get a better one then that for $50 or a little more. Never really looked into it till this year and so far haven't been happy with what i found. So far checked two hobby shops that sold train stuff one had Lionel track, buildings, ect but no actual Lionel trains or indiviual cars and the second one didn't sell Lionel at all but had O gauge stuff. If my dad's Lionel was working better i'd use that one but doubt that one will be ready by then. To answer the question originally asked will Lionel dominate Christmas anymore definatly the answer is no but i do think Lionel might be able to get back some of that magic it lost from previous decades and be better then it is now.
Sounds to me that Lionel was the "in" thing to have in the 40s and 50s and that time has passed. Lionel was replaced by other newer "in" things.
Last June I received a email from sears it was a animated email about a xmas village where you would shop for xmas gifts. I thought it was a great marketing idea.
I replied back and told them I liked the animated email and told them to boost sales this holiday season is to have Lionel trains in there store windows.Explained to them when I was a kid in the fifties growing up people would stop and stare at the trains and also look at the merchandise in the windows.They replied back and thought it was a good idea see what happens this holiday season.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
Anyone remember the scene in Superman Returns (the last one that came out recently with Kevin Spacy as Lex Luther) where Lex tosses a crystal into the port of his train layout? I would have loved to see a track plan for that layout!
cnw1995As an aside, the explosion in American entertainment options has conversely led to a rise in niche marketing ie there are 200 channels not because people watch 200 channels but because there's folks who'll choose to regularly watch a few of them - and those folks can be parsed enough so advertisers can target marketing efforts to those channels to incent those folks to buy something.
One of my buddies sells cable TV advertising. He tells me that the most expensive channels on which to advertise are the home improvement ones. So, where would it make the most sense to advertise "O" gauge trains? Would it be on a kids channel, like Nickolodian, or an adult channel, like HGTV?In the prewar era, when folks complained about the unrealistic bright colors that the trains of the day were painted, Cowen is reported to have said that the bright colors were used to attract the ladies, who did all the purchasing. So would more train sets wind up in kids hands if they were pitched to the parents, or to the kids?
cwburfleIn the prewar era, when folks complained about the unrealistic bright colors that the trains of the day were painted, Cowen is reported to have said that the bright colors were used to attract the ladies, who did all the purchasing. So would more train sets wind up in kids hands if they were pitched to the parents, or to the kids?
That may well be part of it. Perhaps G gauge is so successful because the trains are so brightly colored?
But I think one of the main reasons is cost. I believe that the train around the tree is still a powerful part of the Christmas mystique, but not such an essential part of it that people are willing to pay the big bucks to have one. Essentially, the train is a seasonal item. What's a new Penn. Flyer set (which I have actually been seeing in department stores the last few years--score one for Lionel!)? 250? 300? For less than half that, you can have a colorful, battery-powered, all-plastic-even-the-track G gauge train. To the person who simply wants a train under the tree, not a real toy with durability and play value, the choice is clear. For the consumer, cheaper is better. For the store, cheaper is an easier sale: I remember, when _I_ was growing up--in the '80s--the trains that the mall toy stores featured at Christmas time were always the cheap all-plastic variety. Lionels--if they had any--were way in the back of the store.
A side note on the cost. Lionel, for better or for worse, has sacrificed the nostalgia of "Made in USA". I think many consumers were more willing to bear the cost of a Lionel train, maybe even a merely 'seasonal' train, when it was union-made in Michigan. Now, it's made overseas, but the trains don't cost any less--and it happened just when I finally got some purchasing power, too! In fact, you might say, I'm part of the problem now, because when I do buy a train, it's Pre-or-Postwar (motive power) or MPC/LTI (rolling stock). It's not Lionel, LLC.
I would think rather then going after kids or adults it would be easier to go after people interested in trains in general. I know it all depends on what stations you have but can think of 3 different shows on 2 different stations where marketing might be useful. On RFD TV you have Trains and Locomotives on Mon night and Tue morning (sorry don't remember the times) and I Love Toy Trains on Thurs at 4pm and Fri at 4am (I love Toy trains should be a no brainer but it surprises me that even though they focus on O Gauge the only related ads are for the production company that makes the episodes.) Also over on History Channel there's the show Voyages while that cover alot of subjects other then trains but one day a week is dedicated to train think it's Tue and 4pm and Wed at 4am they play the train shows. Like i said the lack of advertising on the Toy train show really surprises me even thought most the stuff used is Lionel figured it'd be a great place to advertise new stuff or what to do to contact Lionel distriubters.
I am 13 and have only seen 1 person cloos to my age that has a train and that is HO scale and I think it is the price a little and people don't have the pacents to put it up if it isn't a pre made bord with track on it it takes a good half-hour to 45 minuts to put up a semi simple layout (a train line w 2 train tracks with 4 switches on it) and they would be typing on their black barry or watching T.V. than fiddling with that old train.
I'd like to see someone (maybe the fine people at CTT) build a Christmas layout that can be accessed via the internet.
Here's a German layout that you can control via the internet.
Here's the link: Internet Train Layout
Once you open the link below, click on the "Control Desk" tab. This will open another window with a diagram of the layout and a webcam of it too.
First you click on the layout destination for the train. Then you select the train you want to move and click on START. You can then watch the train move, via the webcam, around the layout.
UPDATE - the Internet Train Layout website is still there, but it looks like it is Out Of Operation. Bummer
One thing about trains: It doesn't matter where they’re going. What matters is deciding to get on.
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