OGR, MTH, Kalmbach, and US for Dennis B, Nblum, and everyone else (Including Rich M, and Mike W)

[Anonymous]

As a purely philosophical question, which is worse: Taking credit for something you didn't invent, or forcing the people who did invent something to pay you royalties for their work?

Tony

[KeithL]

First Al Gore invents the internet. Now MTH is going to patent it and sue us all.[;)]

Keith

[Anonymous]

How's my eyesight? Well, if the lenses of my glasses were made of glass, I'd be wearing coke bottle bottoms. And I've reached that age where I have to take the glasses off if I want to actually see small details on something. That means holding the item about 6 - 10 inches or so from my face.

However, I do run my display at 1280 x 1024 pixels on a 19 inch monitor. I sit between 2 & 3 feet from the monitor & I don't have large fonts turned on. Nobody near me believes I can read the screen, but I can. Occasionally, depending on font, I may have to get closer to make something out, but not so with the normal fonts.

The attractive thing about HO isn't so much the tight radii, but the smaller size of scenery. O54 curves are equivalent to a 27" radius HO curve, which sounds pretty generous, given the 18" standard HO curve. Using the same radi in my track plan with HO, I can get more scenes in to the space & the trains wouldn't look too bad.. And I can probably get away with narrower shelves on the walls.

On the other hand, I'd be giving up detail in the rolling stock (is that such a big deal?) and the sounds & smoke. I can live without the smoke; I've kind of gotten used to the sounds. I believe you can purchase HO locomotives with sound, but I have no idea what the sound quality & volume is like, and the prices are probably close to the prices for mid-line O gauge locos, though, again, I don't have any data, I'm just guessing.

Ya know, I'm still sticking with O, but the above really does make HO sound even more attractive to me!

Tony

[brianel027]

"OH BRIAN!!!! [swg]"

Elliot, would you be talkin' to me there? Or to borrow from the movie "Taxi Driver" If you wasn't talkin' to me, who was you talkin' to?? [swg]

Actually I'm kinda flattered when any reference to 027 brings up my name too! The 027 team may not make to the model train world series, but I'm still proud of the team!!

Hey, I meant to thank you before Elliot for bringing this all to the front burner. You did some posting homework with the info from the other forum. Sure, everyone here has been pretty opinionated on this (myself included) but the jist of the info on the MTH action is important and folks should be aware of it.

Time will only tell, but I believe it has major ramifications for the entire hobby, and not necessarily good either.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Clearing the air about all of this stuff is exactly why I put this topic here. I totally agree with John, only I wasn't a victim of the censorship. This is a big part of why I gave this title such a long and goofy name.

My intent is to round up these feelings and show everyone that that nonsense doesn't happen here, so long as we stay within some basic guidelines, but I think we covered most of that pretty thouroughly the last couple of days.

It is good to see that others here share my frustration on this whole range of issues, even if we may not be able to do any thing about them. At least we can talk here.[^]

[Anonymous]

John Black:
Excellent and accurate post. Thanks for clearing the air here.
Bill
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yeah Tony, that "sexy" HO is a bit of a tease. What many people fail to notice about 3 rail O is that even though our trains are twice as large, the minimum curve is actually tighter than the HO standard. HO minimum standard is 18" radius, which is a 36" circle. Absolute minimum is 15" radius for non traction or special. 027 smashes through those numbers, even though the general movement is toward wider curves.

OH BRIAN!!!![swg]

Though some people may be serious about Z, I consider it more of a novelty. N is much more mainstream, and does finally do really tight radii. Now a 4' x 8' layout starts to look big.

BY THE WAY, HOW'S YOUR EYESIGHT?

[banghead][X-)][;)]

[Anonymous]

I'm probably going to stick with O gauge. Though, when I think of how much more trackage & scenery I could get into my space & the cheaper cost of turnouts & such, HO IS attractive.

On the other hand, if I had a small fortune, I could go Z scale & build over 3 scale miles of track in the same space.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Hey, Doug, you made the right choice. If you haven't hit 40 yet, get ready for the magnifying glasses. I tried HO for awhile, but for many reasons, including fooling with the tiny wheels and couplers, I returned to O-gauge.

[cnw1995]

Interestingly, I switched to O because I could imagine a day when I just couldn't physically fiddle with N scale anymore. With the help of forumites, I've been more successful in getting things to run.

[FJ and G]

3-rail HO is nice, but expensive (Marklin)> I'll stick to 3-rail O

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tony, there have been days that I've thought of going back to HO, just imagine what I could do with my space!!!! But no, I am so thouroughly committed (I should be committed[swg]) I can't change.

Beside, in spite of all the industry crap, 3 rail O still has the greatest trains, and the selection is only getting better. We are aided by the fact that there is so much competition for our dollars, that the manufactueres are tripping over themselves to please US.

HO guys are envious of us, because our trains are large enough to have things like smoke, sound, and electro magnetic couplers. Think of all the high tech we can do that they can't. We even get free detection for our trains, if we use the right track.

If there is one positive thing to say about Mike it is, he really wants to get more people into 3 rail O. Of course we all know that he is going about that mission the wrong way.[banghead][banghead][%-)][:-,][sigh]

By the way, my father hated being a lawyer. I wonder why????[swg]

[cnw1995]

Tony, step away from the light. Come baaaack. Take a whiff of the ozone. Speaking as one who came from N into O, it's much better here in 3-rail-land.

[Anonymous]

All:

Welcome to 21st Century America, land of the lawyer. There are more lawyers in the US than in any other country. They've all got to make a living, too. Is it any wonder that we've become so litigious?

If you can't beat the competition legitimately, sue 'em! That'll teach 'em to be better than us!

It really is very, very sad. Alan Miller stated in a post on OGR that he's going to sell his 3 rail stuff & get into On30. I'm beginning to wonder if I should sell what 3 rail stuff I've bought & go into HO. I've had bad experiences with Bachmann & Rivarossi, but I hear good things about Athearn.

Would I have to become a rivet counter, though?

Tony

[FJ and G]

I now purchase exclusively MTH and Williams and I really like MTH, but at the same time I don't think that there's anything wrong with criticizing MTH. I criticize them all of the time.

As to OGR vs. CTT, I may occasionally post there, but will stay with CTT now, as there is more freedom of discussion and as others mentioned, goodwill at OGR has been injured

dav

[brianel027]

Frankly gang the censorship issue here is way overblown. If one's comment gets pulled from a privately sponsored forum, then there is nothing preventing that person from either posting their opinion on another forum or better yet, starting their own webpage or website and expressing their feelings in however they see fit.

I agree with Frank in Steam on talking trains. And Tony's following quote sums up my feelings too:
"Regarding MTH, it just seems terribly low to patent a bunch of technologies you didn't invent & which were put out in the public domain for the benefit of all modelers. It sees to me it'd be like a mining company grabbing public land & start strip mining. It just seems like stealing, and their actions are not going to win them any friends with the HO or N or G scalers. And it's enough to make me want to shy away from their products."

Neil's (not Besougloff or Young) thought on how this will affect the HO community is good. And as I stated several miles back down the track, all these lawsuits ultimately help no one and only serve to keep train prices high.

Yeah, MTH has a lot of ca***ied up in the development of DCS. I've always wondered how these small companies can tie up so much money in the development of all this new product? This no doubt contributes to the "selective pricing" where items that could and SHOULD be lower in price are kept HIGH to pay for high-end product development and in addition, legal fees.

This battle that Lionel, MTH and whoever else are all in affects all of us. Not only is it a battle for them to be the number one company, but there seems to be little sign that the massive flooding of the train market with product will slow down. Nor is there little sign that prices will come down on products where they should come down. NONE of this HELPS to grow the hobby. Lionel and MTH can talk all they want on how they want to grow the hobby with youngsters... hogwash. They are doing scant little about it. I have dozens upon dozens of ideas they COULD and SHOULD do, but aren't.

Nor can they because both Lionel, MTH and now others are going to have to spend so much money on needless, selfish, self-centered and self-defeating legal battles that hurt far more than they help.

I've already stated I refuse to buy any more new Lionel motive power until they decide to lower prices ($80 for an all-plastic single motored RS-3 is a rip off), improve quality and re-release the Conrail U36B from 2 years ago with dual motors as it should have been in the first place and at a lower list price reflecting the "real" market and not Lionel's inflated ideas of what their own product is worth! (The vast amount of blowouts show much of their product isn't worth what they think it is!!!)

I will watch what happens with the actions MTH takes, but I have a strong feeling I will never again buy any MTH product based on Mr. Wolf's utterly selfish, self serving and harmful actions here. If others act as I do, he will need that lawsuit money more than he knows!!!!!!

As someone mentioned before, I guess I will have to stick to buying nothing but used product, and custom building/kitbashing my own trains as I have been doing.

This hobby is about fun for most of us who model and run trains. Obviously for Lionel and MTH it is about causing one or the other to go out of business, AND money, and nothing else. Anything they say about quality and how much they care about the customers is nonsense. If they cared about the customers, they wouldn't be tied up in these ultimately unbeneficial legal actions.

God, where is Industrial Rail when we need them the most!!!!!
And folks wonder why William's shuns the electronics... it's even more than obvious why now!!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Frank, this forum is generally very civil, and is always very open. I have gotten the distinct impression that CTT is considerably more open than OGR, as I have been listening to this stuff for more than a month already. Most of what you are seeing right now is the residual chaos and confusion of Mr Melvin's flip-flop. People are still trying to figure out what to do, and they are thinking VERY LOUDLY. Trust me, this is not the norm!!!

As far as censorship goes, yes, anyone is capable of posting a topic worthy of being censored, the question is why would anyone WANT to.

This very day, someone posted something that was rather rude and in bad taste. After a couple of posts by members and a staff member, this person removed the offensive remarks HIMSELF. This is a true credit to Kalmbach's style of forum management, and beats the [censored] out of OGR's heavy handed style that so many are complaining about.

[Frank in Steam]

I checked out this forum in looking for alternatives to the OGR forum. I read a lot of statements of how civil and train related this forum was. Well after a couple of weeks my impression is that too many on this forum only want to complain about the OGR forum and Rich Melvin. When people joined the OGR forum you agreed to a very specific set of ground rules. If you do not like them after the fact, the avenue to address them is with Rich Melvin, Kalmbach can't do a thing about your concerns with OGR. I thought this was supposed to be about the trains.

Reread what Ben had to say. If you don't get it read it again until you do. IT'S ABOUT THE TRAINS!

All the talk about free speech is red herring. The concept of free speech on this forum is as defined by Kalmbach, just as the OGR forum's definition of free speech is defined by Rich Melvin. If you don't get the concept of free speech, read the Constitution, take a PolySci101 course, find a forum about the Constitution or all of the above. The free speech that we need to concern ourselves about is talking about the trains. It's about the trains. At least a discussion of Mike Wolf - replicator or innovator is still directly about the trains. I personally believe that news about the lawsuit(s) are relevant discussions, but OGR's forum is not mine. I am willing to bet (& I'm not a betting man) that it would not be all that hard to start a topic that Kalmbach would censor or delete.

Can we just get back to the trains?

[nblum]

What will be interesting to observe is how much general ill will MTH has stimulated towards their company in the HO community. They are now planning on entering the HO market and it may be that their "in your face" approach to the existing DCC and electronics manufacturers, and to the NMRA, will backfire when it comes time for consumers to spend their money. I'd say they have some significant damage control to do before their product hits the market. They may believe that their product will be so great that none of this will matter. However, model railroaders are notoriously independent minded, and it would take a product that is both clearly superior and notably cheaper to overcome the bad feeling out there is my guess. And it is precisely the technically savvy, high end modeler who is aware of what has been going on, is ticked off, and is also the intended purchaser for MTH's new products.

[Big_Boy_4005]

My life is not normal John, in fact by normal standards my life is weird. It is true spending too much time thinking about trains is not a good thing.

We had some Chineese food the other day, and there were some fortune cookies left over. I just grabbed one, and the fortune read, "You are what you think about". Uh oh.

[Anonymous]

Elliot,

Like everyone else, I have to periodically (read, daily!) check my priorities. Trains are sure fun, but right now I need to fix the oven's thermostat and the vibration caused by one of the attic fans. For me, I have to tell myself the same thing I tell my son: wait until the have-to jobs are done before going to the fun things.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yeah John, there's a good chance that I do take my trains too seriously, but where there's one there are bound to be others. It's kind of strange having an activist in a hobby. Personally, I wi***here was no lawsuit to discuss. What is this country coming to??

Tony's analogy of strip mining public land really says it all for me. Granted the consequences are nowhere near as severe as that, but the moral outrage is just as great among some in this audience and market.

How can we politely but firmly get our message to MTH that we don't like this behavior. I suppose there is a good old fashioned letter writing campaign. This would leave forum sponsors out of the picture. But without the forums how do we spread the word???

Once again we are sharing ideas.

Here's where the whole thing comes home to roost guys. The cost of the legal wrangling ends up back on EVERYONE'S trains. Oooops.

[Anonymous]

Good points all, Tony.

I haven't been following the MTH story, so I don't have much insight to offer into that issue. I don't post much here or on the other forum, so I don't have a lot of experience with deleted posts. The few, however, that were deleted with my name on them were not flames or lawsuit talk or derogatory subject matter. They apparently just didn't suit the moderator.

I agree that MTH shouldn't gobble up all the rights to emerging technologies. But if it's a legitimate and lawful strategy, and they're in the business to make money, which they are, then they can do that. That sort of thing is happening throughout our country in many different types of business. I don't agree with that approach, but I don't know what model railroaders can do about it but refuse to buy the products.

[Anonymous]

John:

Your comments about spending time with the family is precisely why I spent the past few days away from the forums!

Frankly, I intend to visit both forums in the future. Doing so will likely take more time from my day than I'd like, but if it gets to be too much, I can always spend a few weeks away. I think that these topics could be discussed on either forum, if the topic didn't get out of hand with flame wars. Which even this particular thread has some.

Rich M. has stated why the topics that included links or text taken from legal web sites concerning the MTH lawsuits were pulled. While I'm not sure that I would do the same if I were moderating, it's certainly within his rights to do so, as outlined in the member agreement.

Regarding MTH, it just seems terribly low to patent a bunch of technologies you didn't invent & which were put out in the public domain for the benefit of all modelers. It sees to me it'd be like a mining company grabbing public land & start strip mining. It just seems like stealing, and their actions are not going to win them any friends with the HO or N or G scalers. And it's enough to make me want to shy away from their products.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Guys, you're taking this stuff too seriously!

I got tired of the OGR forum because of the deleted posts, not the fee, although being pretty tight with money, I probably wouldn't have gone for the fee deal. That's a moot point now, however, since the four sponsors have agreed to foot the bill.

But back to the discussion. CTT offers a much lower key place to talk about trains and get information, for newby and old-timer alike. Those of that like this environment and the freer atmosphere on this site will spend most of our time here. Those who want what OGR has to offer, along with the editorial control, will go there.

As far as what MTH does, I really don't care. I don't have enough extra time to develop our small layout, much less think about digital control systems. And since I buy almost exclusively used stuff, it's just not an issue.

My advice: spend time with your wife and children. Do other things. Too much time with trains is like eating dessert all day. Remember, it's a hobby, not a life, for most of us.

Just my two-cents-worth. Might not be worth that much.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually Tony the part about leaving Alan wasn't aimed at any one in particular, especially not you. I was just saying that undertdanding Alan's feelings about censorship, enough different people, myself included had weighed in on this element of this MEGA TOPIC.

Maybe I should have called it the TRASH CAN, not to be confused with tra***alk. I created this topic in the hopes of getting this stuff talked out and over, rather than letting it fester and continue to make people angry and frustrated.

I think you and I share some of the same frustration over MTH, and the fact that we are able to talk about it HERE, is a part of why this stuff all goes together.

[Anonymous]

Apparently no one remembers when CTT wouldn't accept ads from OGR-was that censorship? or just smart business.

[Anonymous]

Elliot:

I don't believe that Alan & I have had any words in the past, and I'm not trying to pick on him. I just don't appreciate what he said about the folks who agreed to pay the fee on OGR, since I am one of those people. I wasn't trying to generate or send any flames; just stating I don't apreciate those comments. That was only a small part of my post.

If some people have a gripe with Rich Melvin, IMHO, I think they should take it up with him & try to work it out. It's getting tiresome to read how someone may think you're this or that just because you don't see an issue the way they do.

This whole topic has gone on more than long enough. I really got a good laugh out of ben10ben's comment about "the decesased equine .... geting a dental exam." That pretty much sums it up.

And hey, you guys are certainly free to raise any issues when they come up. You don't have to wait for me to discuss them! Believe me, I have no delusions about my importance in the O gauge forum world. I may be physically as large as a house, but I'm just another little guy on the forums.

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

Alan, I don't think people are trying to gang up on you here, though that may be an easy conclusion to come to given all the posts this morning. I think we all have the same thing in mind, and that is to help you set aside your past expeirences, and explain why CYBERSPACE is not the same as the regular world. We aren't here to fight or argue about it, just to try and help you to understand why.

Let's leave Alan alone please, and move on.