OGR, MTH, Kalmbach, and US for Dennis B, Nblum, and everyone else (Including Rich M, and Mike W)

[Big_Boy_4005]

ALL RIGHT GENTLEMEN, the topic that wasn't allowed elsewhere is now open for discussion. I can't stand the thought of this being swept under the rug any longer. There are a lot of BUSINESS issues involved here, so keep this in mind as you read and comment. I will try to MODERATE, as it is I who is starting this topic. PLEASE DON'T START SPIN OFF TOPICS!!!! Let's just keep it here.

When this topic is done I hope that we will all have a better understanding of what is going on.

To get the ball rolling I have gathered some discussion that happened recently. Fasten your seat belts, this could get bumpy. REMEMBER BE POLITE!!!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

"What I've read from SOME here is a pathetic display of precisely what the hobby should not be about."

I don't believe everyone has to agree what the hobby should be about. It's pretty unlikely that such conformity is healthy or to be expected.

What I appreciate about this forum is the ability to politely discuss any aspect of the hobby or industry. That includes hearing criticism that may or may not be justified about the forum's sponsor or their policies. Certainly there has been some fairly pointed and over the top criticism of CTT on the OGRR Forum in the past. So it's not surprising that people who feel negatively about aspects of OGRR would express it here.

I don't see the harm in people speaking their minds and others responding, as long as a civil tone and no personal abuse are the standard of discourse. I consider describing other people's opinions as pathetic as not contributing to the betterment of the hobby or understanding of alternative points of view. It's certainly not going to help communicate or validate your point of view.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dennis B

nblum

Ok , I stand corrected. It was about an O Gauge firm suing an HO gauge firm. Dangerous information--I hardly think so. Like I said, apparently Rich felt that the O gauge forum was not the proper venue for posting that info. That's his right.

Yes, we live in a free society but by extension you believe that means a privately run model railroad forum must allow unrestricted posting as long as it's accurate. I don't consider the forum the same as a newspaper or a freepress.

It's anyone's right to disagree with his policies but I see no reason for some to bash him. Do they really think he wanted to cause this kind of uproar? If anything, he's guilty of making a bad judgement call. Now, it has been corrected--better late than never.

Dennis Brennan

Thank you all who are calling for calm here, that's a good place to start.

I feel that there is a real issue to be discussed, and that we should perhaps start a new topic to do so. I'll let you in on a little secret, the HO guys over on MR have been talking about MTH for a while.

My opinion is that Rich is both right, and wrong here, and faces a terrible dilema. On the one hand HO may have no business being discussed on the OGR forum. On the other hand, Rich needs MTH's advertising support. How can Rich stand up to MTH and allow that topic to be discussed? Most O gaugers are not interested in anything dealing with HO anyway.

Kalmbach doesn't have this problem. They are much larger, and have been around a lot longer than both OGR and MTH combined. They aren't as dependent on a single advertiser, they have diversity. It is not like they want to lose any, or don't care. It's just a different relationship. Think about it, who depends on who here. It is that fact that allows to have OPEN discussions here.

We need to learn to see both sides to everything, to understand how the world works!!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

My point wasn't that each and ever discussion here on the CTT forum has been "civil" but that there were no topics, as yet, that had been declared "verboten," even if civilly discussed.

Unless his position has changed, Rich Melvin has stated that discussion of any of the lawsuits MTH is pursuing (two against O gauge firms, one against an HO firm) is unwelcome. Even simple statements of news about the litigation, free of comment, have thus been deleted. OGRR's owners believe discussion of these topics is bad for the hobby and their business, and that is certainly their right. Some of us beg to differ and appreciate Kalmbach's willingness to allow such discussions here.

As I have stated elsewhere, in my opinion these lawsuits have the potential to radically reshape the hobby in multiple scales and alter costs for consumers, amongst other effects. It seems to me that sort of topic would be of concern to many, if not most hobbiests.

Exactly Neil !! The queston isn't about civility, it is about "verboten", which we are lucky to have none of here, so long as we remain civil. I get the impression that for whatever reason Rich is much too close to Mike Wolf, and that is why this stuff is out of bounds on OGR.

Let me do some digging, and I will create a topic where we can really discuss this. I think it's healthy, as long as we remain civil in the process. [:)]

This is the link to the MR topic that I mentioned earlier PLEASE READ IT!!!
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12207

[Anonymous]

Not to be off topic, but I'm not sure why you included me in this thread. I really don't have anything to say about it. I have no problem with the facts being openly aired.

Dennis

[Big_Boy_4005]

Sorry Dennis, I thought your discussion with Neil was interesting. This topic can extend beyond the whole MTH pattent thing, and into the free speach thing, and is kind of meant to tie everything together. These are all important issues, and should help to explain everyone's attitude, including the differences between OGR and CTT. As always no one is right or wrong here, but everyone does see it differently.

If you would like, I can edit the topic title, please let me know.

[Anonymous]

There's no need to edit the topic title. I, myself, thought it was an interesting and enjoyable discussion. Then I will ask the question: How do you feel about my statement in one of our exchanges?

"Yes, we live in a free society but by extension you believe that means a privately run model railroad forum must allow unrestricted posting as long as it's accurate. I don't consider the forum the same as a newspaper or a freepress."

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dennis, MUST is perhaps too strong. Let's just say that I feel that it is better, and more helpful to be allowed to be totally open and frank with hot button issues. Not being allowed sends a message that leaves people wondering what's going on, and that's a great way to start rumors flying.

Our government in Washington has gotten very good at this over the years.[swg]

[Anonymous]

OK, if MUST is too strong a word then where would you draw the line? If I were Rich, I probably would have done the same thing. He had absolutely nothing to gain and a lot more to lose if MTH didn't like the forum discussion. It's a Model Railroad Forum--a forum that has, for better or worse, business implications for OGR. Should we fault him for trying to sidestep the controversy?

There are other places where a topic like this can be discussed. This is a perfect example.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Bingo Dennis!!! This is Rich's dilema that I mentioned earlier. The real trouble comes when people who don't necessarily see the big picture feel that there is something to hide. You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the situation, probably better than most, judging from some of the comments I've read in the past.

Hopefully we can get some of those members in here, and help them to understand the situation too, and diffuse some of the anger in the process.

Because of Kalmbach's standing in the industry, this forum can fly above some of the "clouds" that other forums are forced to fly through.

[Anonymous]

I'll say it once again; You guys complained when they said that they were going to charge, and STILL complain when you don't need to? Like a bunch of 5th grade little girls.

I can see why Rich had yanked the post about the MTH/lawsuit. People do NOT keep it sane, they go on about how Lionel would'nt have done that, or K-Line is the best or If you don't like all that, Buy Willaims.What good can come out of that? When ever I had have a topic or post taken off the board, Rich did send me an email about why it should not be discussed(as I said before "Big boy") I don;t know why you all complain about OGR/Rich Melvin, what have they done to you? Going to charge you a MINIMAL fee to particapate in the best O guage forum out there, and make it better for YOU, but NO.

[nblum]

No one is begrudging Rich Melvin & Co.'s right or rationality in banning discussions of the many lawsuits. But the banning isn't because they become flames, it's because the topic is considered too controversial or not good for the hobby.

Some of us do not agree that consumers should be shielded from the facts about what is going on in the industry just because some folks turn the discussion into flame wars or some publishers prefer to ignore the issues. At the very least, OGRR should have an obligation, as a journal, to report the bare facts of what is going on. In this way, as Eliot suggests, no one will attribute the ban on discussion to ulterior motives. If MTH doesn't want lawsuits discussed, they should stop filing lawsuits ;).

News is news, bottom line.

[Roger Bielen]

I agree with Neil, as long as it is stating the facts there is no reason not to make the news public. For us in the hobby the mags. are our major/only sources of information. Unless there is a trade journal that is widely distributed most of us would not be aware of happenings otherwise.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Lehigh, this isn't about the $18, and I don't think Rich is a bad guy. I do think he has had to make some difficult business decisions, and some have not turned out too well.

In the case of the $18, I really wish he would have come up with the current plan or at least thouroughly exhausted his options before deciding to announce the charge. I had a feeling that it might come to a retraction before it went into effect. A lot of people are angry and feel used as a result of all of this.

The difficult decision is about content for his forum. OGR's position in the industry is not the same as Kalmbach's. He knows and understands this and acts accordingly. This discussion is not about who's best, it's about what can and cannot be said and why.

I am a member of both forums, but this is my forum of choice. I subscribe to 3 Kalmbach publications, I only subscribe to 1 OGR. I have no plans to change any of that. The $18 dollars was never an issue for me.

By the way, just being able to talk about it IS a big deal.

[Anonymous]

Nblum,

This is where I take issue with your reasoning. Rich is not trying to shield anyone from the facts nor is he ignoring the issues. OGRR is not a newspaper, Time magazine, a legal journal or a tabloid. It is a hobby (read passtime) magazine. He has no obligation to report the bare facts as you say.

[Anonymous]

And, Big Boy, I have always understood the reality of the situation.

[Anonymous]

I also want to bring up another point. There are some who feel like they were used because they freely gave to the forum and then Rich decided to charge a fee.

QUOTE: Originally posted by AlanHN

Dennis


... I understand now that thread contributions are meaningless and worthless to Melvin. So I won't be used again!

The fee made me, and others, realize that He was using us. He continues to use and abuse the rest of the OGR lemmings.. Regardless of whether they can figure this out for themselves or not. They will need to do that for themselves..

...I'm just not wasting my efforts for Melvin's rewards.
Alan

I submit that the above is faulty reasoning. When you gave to the forum, you were giving to the community. It is we who benefited from your ideas. It is we who were enlightened by your words. Rich did not personally profit from your gifts. On the contrary, it cost OGR money to provide the forum for you to be able to share your knowledge.

[nblum]

" It is a hobby (read passtime) magazine. He has no obligation to report the bare facts as you say. "

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Most trade journals and specialty journals, such as automobile magazines, medical journals and others usually report all important events in their industry. Kalmbach's magazines generally do. If OGRR doesn't want to, that's their prerogative, but it risks some customers asking what the agenda is. And what other inconvenient or unpleasant facts are being passed over. Bad karma IMO.

[Anonymous]

The agenda is simple. It's strickly a business decision. There's nothing sinister. There's no cover -up. I'll repeat what I said earlier.

He had absolutely nothing to gain and a lot more to lose if MTH didn't like the forum discussion. It's a Model Railroad Forum--a forum that has, for better or worse, business implications for OGR. Should we fault him for trying to sidestep the controversy?

No matter what you do, there will always be those who don't understand your reasoning. I would risk losing them before getting in the middle of something that could cost me a client. A small company like OGR can't afford to take a major hit like that. It is that simple.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I guess that was OGR's choice to provide a place for people to exchange Ideas, nobody forced them to. To say that Rich did not benefit from the members contributions MAY not be entirely true. By building a large following, there must have been some financial gain or at least some intent to try and get some.

I think that both OGR and CTT spend a fair amount of their time discussing what goes on in the O gauge world. Run 200 of OGR was FILLED with statements from representatives from all of the major manufacturers, and was very BUSINESS related. It was the editor's decision to run this material, no one forced him there either. I came away with the impression that a couple of the different statements were pointing a finger straight at MTH, and that Mike used his space as a rebutal.

[Anonymous]

Big Boy,

Yes, it was OGR's choice to provide a place for people to exchage ideas just as it was AlanHN's choice to submit his ideas. No one forced either party. So, I think it's disingenuous to say Rich was using and abusing and continues to do so because he decided to charge a fee. My point on that score is that Alan's contributions were given to the community not to Rich. Of course, a large forum is a win-win situation for everyone. That goes without saying.

Your example of the business related discussion in Run 200 is a horse of an entirely different color than reporting the facts of a lawsuit.

In one case we have four high profile CEOs who are given the opportunity to voice their opinions. Who wouldn't want that kind of free publicity? In the other case, we have the possibility of a nasty legal battle and all the negative publicity that will be generated. Why go there?

[Big_Boy_4005]

I have never been of the impression that the $18 fee was intended as a money making effort . Just an effort to offset the cost of running the forum. The effect of the announcement was awful, scaring members and sending them running. The message was sent pretty clearly that many members would rather switch than pay.

Now that the threat of the fee has passed people are faced with an interesting decision. You are absolutely correct that a large diverse member base is the key to a good forum. The question is has Rich shot himself in the foot here, and how long will it take to recover. Only time will tell.

The whole thing about the lawsuit is a real problem for me. It may not have a direct effect on O gaugers like us, but what about our friends in other scales? Who will look out for them?

I'm not sure how long ago the 2 rail guys started calling their system DCC. There were a bunch of competing command control systems. Finally the NMRA got involved, and worked to form a standard. The manufacturers agreed not to pattent some of these innovations, so that they could be used by everyone to make all of the stuff compatable.

Along comes Mike, and creates DCS. In the process, he uses some of the unpattented technology developed for DCC. He then goes out and pattents the whole system. He now holds the HO stuff hostage, with no intention of going into the HO market.

This is the way I understand the problem. First I want to know if this is the truth, but the way the HO guys talk I suspect this is exactly what happened. Wouldn't you be pissed if you were waiting on a train that was going to use this technology. I don't have anything against Mike personally, but if he did do this, I think it stinks.

All I really want is the truth to come out. At this stage there are a lot of different versions flying around. My theory is based on taking the most plausable information and compiling it. Are you really ready to just believe MTH's prepared statements? The fact that someone simply says DROP IT, only makes me "smell a rat" and want to dig deeper. Isn't that what made Ralph Nader famous?

Please read the posts in the topic link below, and see what the HO guys are saying about MTH, and what MTH is saying.
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12207

[Anonymous]

Dennis

Melvin has censored so many of my threads that I have decided that I don’t want to contribute to him and his empire. The $18. was the final straw.

His response to censorship has always been that he doesn't need to respond!

To believe that he makes or derives No profit from the OGR forum just shows how well you have been manipulated and have eaten his propaganda crap. Just count how many times the Forum is mentioned in OGR; four- five six times. It is an added benefit to the advertisers to be mentioned again by modelers in the forum.

So Melvin keeps anything detrimental to them out., such as lawsuit discussions, cross-use of materials (using Lionel this with MTH that) and anytime you suggest that MTH may be doing this or that and parlay that into a conclusion that they are acting stupid.

When you said my reasoning was " faulty" because ". . . When you gave to the forum, you were giving to the community. It is we who benefited from your ideas. It is we who were enlightened by your words. Rich did not personally profit from your gifts. On the contrary, it cost OGR money to provide the forum for you to be able to share your knowledge...", I got to say Dennis you are dead wrong.

The OGR forum was vehicle to MAKE MONEY for OGR with free articles and ideas that he could use for FREE. That further the use of advertisers products .

I don’t want to contribute to him and aid his propaganda. As an author, I decide where my stuff goes. I got to like where it goes. And right now, I don’t like Melvin and OGR for fragmenting and dividing the hobby and then saying;

"OH, Well, too bad!, no harm done" P L E A S E......

You know I did not see a simple apology from him did you??


Alan

[Big_Boy_4005]

I can understand your frustration Alan, I would be frustrated too. Actually, last week, over on the Trains Magazine forum, I had a topic killed. My situation was a little different though. The editor of the magazine is an old FRIEND of mine.

I was shocked at first, but when I read his email I understood why he felt he NEEDED to pull it. I think he felt that being friends he had a little more laditude with me than with someone he didn't know as well. I was dissappointed, but I understood why he did what he did.

As it turned out, a similar topic to what I had posted suddenly appeared, in all honesty it was written better than mine, so I simply replied and felt that my point was made, end of story.

I thought long and hard about censorship in forums such as this, and came to the conclusion, that the less it's done the better. There are reasons for it, the key is to not find too many.

[Anonymous]

Elliot

Benevolent dictators are still dictators. and every time someone says to me you can't say this or that; I will shout louder! I had family in WWII Germany that said nothing when it happend to them. When it happens here red flags and bells should go off in your head telling you this is wrong.

Instead, there are a lot of people, not just train peeps, that are afraid of Free Speech and will use every avenue to curb it when they feel what is being said threatens them claiming and justifying all the way that the language was inappropriate; the truth is it is never inappropriate in this country except in places like Albania. Look at the FCC, one TV nipple later and they fine radio shows hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The only cure for Free Speech is MORE free speech. Sure the forums belong to someone, but when you put them out there, the Bill of Rights should prevail on them as well. When is it justified in this country that a private individual can arbitrarily override the first amendment without any justification? As if there is a justification for doing so.

Also they say it is a train forum so let's have fun and at the same time knock out any discussions that stray, who cares about censorship; the fact is all these threads stray,.. That’s the nature of the medium.

Alan

by the way , I loved the MOA layout. Too bad they wouldn't help you and use it as more of a draw

[ben10ben]

My only comment on this subject is that it's Rich's forum, and he can do anything he darn well pleases with it. I may not always agree with what he does, but he has every right to delete any thread he wishes without any reason for deleting this. If you don't believe me, look at the forum rules that you should have agreed to when you registered for the forum. By registering and agreeing to those rules, you waved any and all rights to free speach on the forum, and, if you have a problem with that, you shouldn't have registered in the first place.

[brianel027]

Aside from the issue of "censorship" I did go through and read the link that Elliot provided. Business is and always has been business, but this seems a bit on the ugly side to me and I was very sorry to see it happening.

I've always defended MTH as they did do a lot to drive the 3-rail hobby forward. I also remind myself that many of MTH's early accessory products were near identical clones of Lionel product... but not precisely identical. Whether the rights on those Lionel items even ever existed, or had expired or were avoided by minor changes in product dimension doesn't change the fact that they were copies of Lionel product. And that MTH profited from them.

And now all these expanded lawsuits. And we've all seen plenty of examples with companies where drawn-out, extended costly legal battles and costly settlements/damages ultimately affected the consumer with higher prices - as these costs are always passed on to the consumer. Even though it certainly isn't the fault of the consumer.

Has anyone at MTH or any of the other involved companies noticed that the US economy is in terrible shape. And the reports of all this new job growth are something of a joke as many of the new jobs are mostly in the service sector, which are the lowest paying jobs with no benefits. Toy trains, scale or otherwise are discretionary purchases and one needs discretionary income first.

I recall Maury Klein's statement that K-Line will be the number 3-rail company. It could end up being true, and not necessarily because their product is the best. If they can remain clear of these legal entanglements, they may end up being the only company left standing.

And should the others all make it though, you can be sure of one thing... list prices won't be coming down on trains anytime soon. And once again, this will become a hobby for lawyers only - since they will have all the money. And I suspect no amount of good-will promotion of the hobby will place MTH in good standing once news of this becomes more known.


This could all put a whole new spin on the Lionel "Great Train Robbery" Train Set.

[Anonymous]

You know what Alan, you have every right to disagree with his policies. But you are over the edge with the he uses your article for free idea. You would have a point if he put your piece in the magazine and you were not compensated. But that's clearly not the case.

So by extension then this forum is profiting from your turntable article. Do you hear that Neil B.? ...

I have said enough.

[Anonymous]

Big Boy, you said that MTH has no intention of entering HO, on the contrary, he has every intention of entering HO, as shown at York. They had a modified Life Like engine running under DCS.

Given his track record for shipping, who knows when it might be a reality, but the lawsuits were a pre-emtive strike against the HO manufacturers.
Al

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by alt117

Big Boy, you said that MTH has no intention of entering HO, on the contrary, he has every intention of entering HO, as shown at York. They had a modified Life Like engine running under DCS.

Given his track record for shipping, who knows when it might be a reality, but the lawsuits were a pre-emtive strike against the HO manufacturers.
Al

Wow, now this is news!!!! But not totally unexpected. This puts a whole new twist on the situation.

So, Mike has gone out and captured this technology with his patent, but in the process totally alienated the HO community. He has completely thumbed his nose at the NMRA in the process. DID THE HO COMMUNITY ASK FOR A NEW COMMAND SYSTEM????

They have gone to a lot of trouble to try and create a standard that could be used by everyone, and along comes Mike and turned the whole thing on it's head. Very shrewd, but absolutely ruthless!!!!

[Anonymous]

Dennis

What you fail to see, and you are not alone, is the erosion of our liberty when forums "moderator" arbitrarily abridge our fundamental freedoms. Sure OGR is one forum and affects a limited number of people. But this is how erosions of our freedoms begin. Not in one foreseeable slam or war or takeover but little by little. And people agree because they don't see coming.

First one forum does it, then another and another until ALL have these benevolent dictators. We all justify it by saying. " Hey it's their forums they can take away our rights."

Then some conservative reactionary political hacks start looking at the forums and the reaction of all those people whom don't seem to mind the destruction of their liberties if done under the guise of "benevolent dictators" Okay they say let's make some laws that take away free speech but just on forums. But it won't stop there and so it grows.

If these small erosions don't raise hackles on your back and make you feel as if something was lost every time they occur then you are living in the wrong country.

Try Albania.


Alan

[Bob Keller]

Hey guys, this thread is getting a little too heated and political. Why doesn't everybody take a step back, take a deep inhale of ozone, and get back to running trains.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Alan and Ben, while I am in total agreement with Alan with regard to the freedom of speech issue in the real world, I must say that Ben makes an excellent point.

Unfortunately we aren't in the real world here, we are in CYBERSPACE. Our opportunity to speek is a privilege provided by our host.

Personally I am very thankful for Kalmbach and their ability to give us as much range as they have.

Thanks Kalmbach