"You can’t study the darkness by flooding it with light." - Edward Abbey -
Well O "scale" was primarily three-rail (usually outside rail) until maybe the seventies when Atlas came out with their O scale two-rail line.
Part of it has to do with availability. Back in the eighties, if you wanted to run O scale you pretty much had to rely on building engine kits, many of which had been out of production for decades. Basically, if you weren't over 50 you were out of luck!!
I believe the New York Society of Model Engineers is now in Garfield, NJ. They do have a spectacular layout. As mentioned above, the availability of the true scale equipment and the price. In the end, comes down to taste. I personally like the look of a good diorama and the trains are like the actors. I have a mix of more and less detailed trains, but plan is for detailed scenery. I hope to have a lot of interesting scenes for folks to look at and have to look at again for anything missed the first time. I have also seen some folks with very plain, almost toy-like layouts where they have just grass mat with a bunch of track and accessories on top. They are both fun and enjoyable to me.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
A couple other reasons:
Hi rail allows larger wheel flanges so trains can run on smaller diameter curves such as 31" or 48" dia without derailing. This allows for smaller layouts. Even O72 is small for O scale. O120 is the prefered mininum if you talk to NMRA types. Some people are switching to scale flanges and body mounted couplers but you really need large curves for that. Some people like to run trains at blazing speeds. Another reason for large flanges.
Many people started with inexpensive 3 rail sets and things grew from there. After a while, their tastes settled on the scale stuff but they wanted to run it on their current 3 rail setup that so much time and money was invested in. This is why Lionel and MTH make monster U boats that take O31 curves. Some people like myself have mood swings and like to run scale stuff one day and postwar, MPC, or prewar the next. Hi rail allows you to run trains from practically any era on the same layout. As long as the gauge is the same and the motor gearing is compatible with the switches of course.
Texas Pete,
As they say in I Love Toy Trains - Lionel Accessories, "Scale didn't matter then, and it doesn't matter now." Much of the Post War Lionel stuff was not to scale - mostly it was too big for scale but was fun to play with.
I can only speak for myself, but that's one reason I like hi-rail. I love having my grandson bring his Lego buildings and 1:64 or greater planes and cars to have fun with our Lionel hi-rail.
Another thing to consider: in scale, a 6' x 8' layout is only 288' x 384' or 2.5 acres. Not much need for a railroad on 2.5 acres.
Also, I don't have the patience or skill for all out modelling
Charlie
There is an element of irony when someone complains about three rail not being "scale" when most of the two rail layouts still use O gauge track which itself isn't scale. The Proto 48 folks are the only true scale modelers in the bunch.
When I see a beautifully detailed layout about the last things I worry about is whether there is a third rail and whether everything is to scale. If it's a work of art, it should be appreciated as such.
chuckThere is an element of irony when someone complains about three rail not being "scale" when most of the two rail layouts still use O gauge track which itself isn't scale. The Proto 48 folks are the only true scale modelers in the bunch.
Yes, It would take a city block to model a short line that is truly O scale.
I make a point of running my General locomotive only on track correctly scaled to the proper gauge.
Bob Nelson
A recent issue of CTT focused on Hi-Rail layouts and its origins. Basically, it's incorporating three rail O sized trains with scenery techniques typically found in the smaller scales. It all depends on one's taste. I like watching my trains travel thru a specific region, and use scenery styles from my former "dark side" history in HO and N. Yet, I don't consider my layout true Hi-Rail, as I utilize a plethora of Lemax, Dept 56, Hawthorne Village, Santa's Workbench structures to cover my real estate needs. I focus more on flavor than substance.
"I am sincerely interested in knowing what motivates a person to model "hi-rail" style."
I Like it!!! convenience of three-rail wiring ,space, and they make nice equpment now!!!!!
"3-rail operators? I call my self a 2 railers with a spare!"
I'm an ardent hi-railer. There's one reason I don't switch to 2-rail -- I love my Lionel. I grew up with them. Now, I can build the kind of layout I used to dream about when I was a kit.
Dennis Brennan
www.brennansmodelrr.com
I guess my question would be why not? What's wrong about having a 3rd rail on a model or toy train? Why does everything have to be exactly to scale? Why do some people like n-scale, or HO, or even Z? It really all comes down to personal preference and interests. Why would anyone want to buy track with a built in plastic representation of a roadbed when they could hand lay for absolute realism? Why would anyone set up a layout on a carpeted floor? Personal preference. You get the idea.
For me it's about tradition. If Lionel had originally created 2 rail track instead, I'm sure we wouldn't see as much if any 3 rail layouts out there. While I currently have a small n-scale switching layout for space reasons, I am about to start restoring an original postwar Lionel department store layout. Ultimately I'd like to have an o-scale layout that uses stud rail for a more approximate realistic effect. It wouldn't be 2 rail but it wouldn't have the hi rail look. However it would be capable of running hi rail equipment with nothing more than sliders over the pickup wheels. I want tighter curves than a true scale representation would have. O-72 is pretty tight by realism standards but still 6 feet across which takes up interior real estate pretty quickly.
A friend of mine, Barry Bogs, has a G-scale layout running through the upstairs of his house. It looks very nice. All hand laid track. Very real looking. However he's got curves with 44" radiuses which isn't prototypically accurate. It by no means detracts from the fun of the layout and I don't think a 3rd rail needs to either.
Louisiana Southern Pacific "I am sincerely interested in knowing what motivates a person to model "hi-rail" style." I Like it!!! convenience of three-rail wiring ,space, and they make nice equpment now!!!!!
"I Like it!!!" Good answer. The rest is gravy. That's a nice layout you got there!
I have a fair amount of tinplate and postwar and don't want to give that up, but also want to try my hand at better scenery this time. My former 5 x 10 layout was green outdoor carpeting with combo tinplate and prewar accessories, and old Lionel tubular track.
New layout wishes are to have Gargraves phantom rail, Woodland Scenics - style scenery, mountains, streams, trees, scratch-built buildings, some small whimsical themes, and some home-made electronics ideas.
My imagination may outstrip my pocketbook and my time, but I like the idea of combining toy and semi-realism, rather than go either hard 100% prototype or 100% toy-like appearance.
CJ Meyers
Here's a thread I haven't had a chance to kill yet.
cjmeyers My imagination may outstrip my pocketbook and my time, but I like the idea of combining toy and semi-realism, rather than go either hard 100% prototype or 100% toy-like appearance. CJ Meyers
That's what I have been working on. I stuck with tubular track, so the cost is just in the scenery.
Frank, that is just awesome. The circle on the mountain top is the kicks.
There is something missing and I figured it out. NO FLYING YANKEE! What gives???
3railguy There is something missing and I figured it out. NO FLYING YANKEE! What gives???
Thanks John - they were older photos:
Sigh. I was a little worried you may of orphaned the little guy off.
arkady" I am sincerely interested in knowing what motivates a person to model "hi-rail" style. Judging from some of the pics in this forum there's some really good modeling happening on many hi-rail layouts. Why not just go all-out scale?" Your question is a good one, and one I had to ask myself back in the early Nineties. I'd been collecting postwar Lionel for a couple of years, but I'd also begun buying more scale-like equipment, including a Williams hi-rail locomotive. At that point, I had to take a step back and ask myself just what I was doing. Did I want to do scale modeling, or did I want a vintage Lionel layout? If I was going to do scale modeling, running the trains on track that isn't simply non-scale but is grossly out of sync with anything in the world of real railroading just didn't make sense. What did I really want? Eventually, I made my decison. I converted the Williams Alco to scale wheelsets and couplers, scratchbuilt a caboose for it, bought some Atlas sectional track, and happily went on scale modeling. The scale models are mainly for display (it's not like I have room for multiple layouts), but that's okay with me. At the same time, I went on with my interest in Postwar Lionel, enjoying my tubular track, barrel loaders, automatic milk cars and log loaders as much as before, without any concern whatever for scale. You might say I live in both worlds, but to me, at least, it makes no sense to try and mix them. For me, 3-rail is 3-rail and scale is scale, and I have no desire whatever to let one cross over into the other. And now that I'll be retiring within a year, I'm looking forward to a new house and a new Fastrack layout for the tinplate trains. Your mileage may vary, but that's how it works for me. BTW, can anyone tell me why the board software is stripping out all my paragraph breaks?
Your question is a good one, and one I had to ask myself back in the early Nineties. I'd been collecting postwar Lionel for a couple of years, but I'd also begun buying more scale-like equipment, including a Williams hi-rail locomotive. At that point, I had to take a step back and ask myself just what I was doing. Did I want to do scale modeling, or did I want a vintage Lionel layout? If I was going to do scale modeling, running the trains on track that isn't simply non-scale but is grossly out of sync with anything in the world of real railroading just didn't make sense. What did I really want?
Eventually, I made my decison. I converted the Williams Alco to scale wheelsets and couplers, scratchbuilt a caboose for it, bought some Atlas sectional track, and happily went on scale modeling. The scale models are mainly for display (it's not like I have room for multiple layouts), but that's okay with me. At the same time, I went on with my interest in Postwar Lionel, enjoying my tubular track, barrel loaders, automatic milk cars and log loaders as much as before, without any concern whatever for scale. You might say I live in both worlds, but to me, at least, it makes no sense to try and mix them.
For me, 3-rail is 3-rail and scale is scale, and I have no desire whatever to let one cross over into the other. And now that I'll be retiring within a year, I'm looking forward to a new house and a new Fastrack layout for the tinplate trains. Your mileage may vary, but that's how it works for me.
BTW, can anyone tell me why the board software is stripping out all my paragraph breaks?
arkady. Hope to see you posting more.
If you are looking for total consistency, realism, perfection, and it bothers you.....you are right.
Your point reminds me of a friend who did a body-off restoration of an old E-Type Jaguar. He experienced a lot of angst getting it perfect, original in every respect. The angst part for perfection for me would take out some of the fun element. By the same token, he then compromised his perfectionism by driving the restored Jaguar 6 months of the year through the elements.....because he was willing to give up points at a car show to cater to his other objective, the sheer fun of driving it.
There is nothing wrong with perfectionism if you are willing to give up other things to achieve it, regardless what anyone else thinks or says. I don't see the sense in exactitude and perfectionism when it comes to my involvement in the hobby. So the mix of hi-rail and vintage Lionel toyism works for me.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Frank533railguy There is something missing and I figured it out. NO FLYING YANKEE! What gives??? Thanks John - they were older photos:
Frank53 - You do good work!
Why Not?
With Scale models like these available in 3 Rail, why not build the scenery to look as Great as these Beauties?
I am a multi-scaler, I was(and still am) an HO modeler for years, then after one Christmas too many of picking pet hair out of the running gear of HO challengers, I decided to get some Lionel O-Gauge for under the tree. REALLY, that was all that I intended to do with it, HONESTLY. It did not take long for the size of the O-Gauge trains to get addictive, I just love the mass of them. I also have some large scale, Gauge #1( often, INCORRECTLY collectively refered to as "G" scale which is specifically 1:22.5 SCALE) but those are (to Me) large enough to be hard to build an indoor layout for(YES, it CAN be done, Yes, that sounds like HO or N scalers talking about O-Gauge) I soon bought a second set, then more and more and more and well you get the idea (sound familiar to anyone else?) After awhile, I had too much to consider 2 Rail O Scale, and frankly (Sorry Frank) there is much more available, and affordable in 3 Rail. Also, the wiring in 3 Rail is so much less complicated.
So for ME, it is run what I already have and like, and easier wiring, plus more cost effective, so when I do build my Layout, it will be Hi-Rail.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Challenger 3980 - TellyawhatImgonnado... Since you don't have a layout "suitable" for that most impressive fleet you've amassed, and I happen to have a fully sceniced pike, you can forward some of those steamers to me on the east coast as part of a "long-term" lease, say $1 an engine. I could run them and keep them in excellent working condition, so you wouldn't have to display them outside anymore. Thennnnn, when you've finally completed your layout, I could forward them back to you.
It's all about helping others, I always say.
Now Fife, I think you made an offer that he can't refuse! That is a beautiful collection. My personal method of modelling, I am building a "Hi-Rail" layout on the upper portion of my pike. I did the benchwork in such a way as to allow a lower layout to be built which I will build a tubular pike with all the post war accessories that just won't work on a HI-Rail set. My intention is that this will be built to my 6 year old son's specs as it will give him a place to enjoy the hobby while I run the more expensive items up top. Dennis
Fifedog, I really do APPRECIATE your GENEROUS(with my equippment) OFFER, but I am planning on getting married this spring/summer, and just tonight she mentioned again, that she REALLY wants Me to build a layout. (Iknow her Son(15 years old) likes that idea very much as well). So now it's her garage(need to keep the kids in their schools) that we need to clean out now, not mine. I will be needing those locomotives to check track work, wiring and clearances as we build.
They don't get displayed out side, but for photgraphing it is hard to beat natural lighting. My only complainant about her son's interest in trains is that he likes those stinky Diseasels, and in GREEN & BLACK, not the Armour Yellow and Harbor Mist Grey with Red lettering that any self-respecting Diseasel would insist on having itself painted.
Besides Fifedog, I'm on to your little scheme, I would NEVER get my Locomotives back, I know as well as You do, a layout is NEVER TRULY FINISHED. I know how to read your small print.
Thank You Again though for your Generous Offer,
Wellllll, allrighty then.
You always have to read that Fine Print.
When your layout is Finally completed, I will forward them back to you.
A layout finally completed?
fifedog Wellllll, allrighty then.
Nice try though Fifey, I can't say that I wouldn't have tried it myself,
I'm gonna be a little more esoteric. I grew up and became inspired by the works of Frank Ellison, the articles in Model Builder and (in S Gauge) the work of Frank Titman. In the 1970's and 1980's, there was little available in S scale, and even the "scalers" were converting buildings from HO and using oversised HO signals and signage.
I enjoy the simplicity of the trackwork and the electrical work (which are not my favorite area of the hobby) and like the fact that I can concentrate on building rolling stock, scenery and on operation which I do enjoy. In S, in any case, the only difference in the rolling stock, by in large, is in the size of the wheel flange and in the couplers. Even in "scale" the couplers and flanges aren't really scale size, and the bigger couplers and flanges make it easier for me to "operate" (i.e. run trains, uncople cars at sidings, make up trains).
I guess I made a trade off in favor of simplicity and reliablity versus appearance. If Model Railroading is an "art", I guess I am an impressionist rather than a realist. However, I contend that all model railroaders are in some sense impressionists. Our trains don't really carry goods, don't really burn fuel, arn't expected to turn a profit, aren't crewed by minature living beings, etc. It all depends on where you want to draw the line.
Little Tommy
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