" I hate Lionel." I can still hear those words coming from my Dad's study the day before Christmas 1950. He was having trouble getting some aspect of the 97 Coal Loader working that I was getting the next day. My dad couldn't fix a flashlight with a burned out bulb let alone something with an electric motor. After growing up with Lionel trains and having owned an O gauge only train store for ten years there isn't much in the post war era I can't fix given enough time. With a mill and a lathe and the plethora of aftermarket parts most repairs are done in few days. After a ten year lay off of working on and playing with trains fast forward to the last three months when myself and a few other friends started putting together some modern day layouts with MTH PS2 and DCS equipment. So far four out of eight PS2 locomotives have had to go back for repairs to the electronics. None had more than six hours of run time. Two were bad out of the box. I also had to repair loose internal connections on one of the TIUs. Are we having just a run of bad luck or is this what we can expect from modern day MTH electric trains? I lived through the three clanks of death of PS1 and thought the electronic troubles were over. Looking over the review section of CTT I see that quite a few engines of all the manufacturers seem to have some kind problem right out of the box. I really don't want to hear "I hate electronic trains." coming from my study! Can you guys give us some hope?
Richard
I'm quite happy with my MTH locomotives. I pulled out the computers and put in Lionel electromechanical e-units, and a Lionel air whistle in the Big Boy's tender. Now they work great.
Bob Nelson
I've honestly don't own any PS1 or PS2 and just recently got into TMCC I'm still a lot with conventional but I use to help a freind who owned a hobby shop and I was always hearing about right out of the box engines needing to go back for repairs mostly MTH but he had his share of Lionel also but on the lionel side he said it was easier as he it was one of three boards to repalce ( lot cheaper) but MTH had everything on one board and if he had to replace it it was a lot more expensive ( this is in regaurds to trains out of warnanty. )
But must amit I like Bob Nelsons answer
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
lionelsoniI'm quite happy with my MTH locomotives. I pulled out the computers and put in Lionel electromechanical e-units, and a Lionel air whistle in the Big Boy's tender. Now they work great.
+1, I found that an American Flyer electro-mechanical E unit fits nicely in the boiler of my MTH engines along with the rectifier. No need for a tender tether now.
I own and run 10 MTH Gauge One Locomotives, all run on PS2/DCS control. I've converted 5 non MTH locomotives to PS2/DCS. The TIU and REMOTE software has been kept up to date. Never an electrical problem. Do not open any locomotive with PC Boards without "Anti-Static" protection! With MTH, charge the battery by putting the train on the track per instructions.
Problems with braking small plastic parts in the Heavy Gauge One Steam locomotives abound. I think they failed to remember that in Garden Railroading, locomotives are hand carried out to the layout and back into the house each day of operation (Diesels or OK). I did have a problem with one of my "O" gauge MTH locomotives, a broken Crosshead Guide. Received the replacement part in days, no charge.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
The quality of command control loco's new out of the box is not what I'd like, but it is what it is.
I started back with model trains o guage last fall 2007. Bought Lionel and have sent 3 of the five locos back for warranty work.
Beside sending it back for warranty work theres not much I know to do. My personal griping about won't make it go away. Don't have the impression that Lionel or MTH is able to do anything to make these locos better quality out of the box.
The quality problems is much higher than what I experience in any other category of products(not model trains) of comparble complexity. I think the fact I must pay freight to send back for warranty work really gripes my @$# though.
Dennis, although I have used American Flyer reversing units elsewhere, I put a horizontal Lionel e-unit in the Big Boy. I retained the tether, which I use for a pickup bus, coupler, backup light, and taillights.
There seems to be little question that Quality Control leaves a lot to be desired. Nevertheless, I am amazed that the reluctance to consider Bob Nelson's oft-repeated recommendation to install Transient Voltage Supressors (TVS diodes) at various points on the layout to try to quash static-electricity spikes.
At perhaps 57 cents apiece, and taking perhaps 30 seconds to install, It is difficult to understand the argument against them; but one continues to hear the shopworn claim that "fast-acting" fuses or circuit- breakers are all you need. "Fast" is a relative term. Traditional fuses and circuit-breakers are actually quite s-l-o-w in the world of electronics.
There are voices, mostly on the other forums, who insist that spike protection is not needed. Apparently their experience is primarily if not exclusively with rugged postwar electrical equipment , which probably can get by without spike protection. However, their remarks could seriously mislead those who run delicate modern electronic equipment. There is a distinction that needs to be made here, and they aren't making it.
Although I run traditional/conventional equipment for the most part, I do have several examples of modern electronic equipment, including after-market e-units, horn/whistle components, and even a couple of few locos. I have been very careful to avoid a static discharges when installing these devices and to protect them as best I can with TVS diodes. So far, so good.
It seems to be widely accepted that high-voltage, low-current spikes can snuff out certain solid-state components, especially when they occur repeatedly. Why then do we keep seeing owners report that their equipment failed "for no reason?" Let me get this straight. Things in the physical world are happening for no reasons? C'mon, now. Isn't it more likely that we simply aren't accepting the likely reasons?
Perhaps Bob would provide some data about the voltage levels that can be generated by ordinary household activities (especially when relative humidity is low as it often is in winter) such as by walking across a carpet and touching a doorknob. I'll bet that even Nicola Tesla would be impressed.
Happy and trouble-free model railroading -- especially to those of you with new electronic devices.
Richard, it is their quality control. They have none. Don't buy Realtrax [Realtrash as Buckeye puts it] switches. I don't buy their diesel locmotives except for switchers. Anyone that makes something that does not match up with Lionel, Atlas nor Weaver, I don't buy. Arguement is you can run them with DCS remote but no one wants to admitt they lose features. Anyway, I totally despise that remote with the crazy wheel.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
This story sounds very familiar. I don't know exactly how many modern trains that I've purchased, but what I can say that most of them had some kind of out of the box failures. Spending over a grand for an engine and having to send it out for repair just when you got it is rather disappointing. To add to the insult, some instances I had to ship an item accross the country only to wait 3-5 months for a repair. This is not exactly how I wish to enjoy the hobby.
Dealing with these issues made me take another look at conventional operation.PullMor motors, ozone, smoke pellets, E-units, air whistles, and the sweet smell of old lubricant makes this hobby pleasurable for me. All my repairs and tune ups are done myself.
I decided to stop throwing money at these Chinese trains only to get frustration in return. I can guarantee that I can get it for free somewhere's else in my life.
The ole saying holds true here. "If you wanna play, you gotta pay". A command control enviroment with all the sounds, automation, etc. is very expensive. Want affordable reliability? There is Atlas O Trainman conventional, Lionel Standard O conventional, and Williams. All are pretty much solid as a rock in my experience. You just don't get all the bells and whistles the higher tech brothers offer. Plus there is a sea of simple old school technology on the secondary market. As far as reliability with higher tech trains is concerned, in order for the electronics to survive the conditions a toy train layout throws at them, my feelings are they would have to meet rigid ASTM specs and we would be paying in the neighborhood of $1500 or better for a diesel.
I agree with this whole idea and would also like to know where these tvs devices should be installed. I tried to look them up on one site; however, I never found them. I just got Legacy from my wife for xmas and I want to put the tvs devices in before I run equipment with the Legacy setup.
amos (Quoted in part) I ... would also like to know where these tvs devices should be installed.
I ... would also like to know where these tvs devices should be installed.
I know zilch about Legacy, but here's what I do on my "conventional" layout:
The first basic principle is that a TVS diode goes in parallel across the two wires that supply power to the device, and NOT in series, as a fuse would. So I generally mount one at the transformer output across the A and U terminals, for example. I might put one at the lockon, so that electrically it bridges the center and outer rails. In a loco, tender, or any device containing electronics, connect one directly between across the power input and ground.
The second principle is that apparently the closer the TVS is to the device that you are trying to protect, the better. Thus, if I had an expensive RailSounds stand-alone tender, I'd mount one at the circuit board between the power lead from the pickup roller and ground. There is no polarity issue, so it doesn't matter which lead goes to "hot" and which goes to "ground" (aka "common".)
The TVS diode can be soldered or simply mechanically wrapped and snugged around any terminal where such attachment is possible. TVS diodes are reasonably rugged, but if soldering one should use as little heat as possible and try not to unsolder any existing connections.
When working on sensitive electronic parts, take care to use the same personal grounding precautions that you would use when working inside your computer -- you don't need the irony of blowing the circuit board while you are installing a protective device.
The principal weakness of the system is that there is no easy way to determine whether the device is actually working. That's why I use more than one, and change them out every now and then. They are absurdly cheap, so buy 'em by the bag. (You know, a belt-and-suspenders approach.) To get you started, even one TVS should be a whole lot better than none.
Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson is the electronics guru on this forum. Perhaps he will be good enough to make such corrections as are necessary. You should be able to find a good deal that he has already published on this forum using the "Advanced Search" function.
Minor edits for punctuation, spelling and clarity. No material changes.
I think you've nailed it. Just search on "TVS" for more posts than you can shake a stick at. There was one very recently; but I can't find it. Anyone?
lionelsoni I think you've nailed it. Just search on "TVS" for more posts than you can shake a stick at. There was one very recently; but I can't find it. Anyone?
Don't know whether this what you meant, but here's a recent one of yours:
There are two things to protect against, overcurrent and overvoltage:
The circuit breaker inside the transformer already protects against overcurrent. However, since Lionel used only one circuit breaker (except in the TW), there are various ways that transformers with more than two terminals can be connected that are not protected by the circuit breaker. Your KW's maintenance manual says, "the circuit breaker does not protect binding post combinations A-B, B-D and C-U." If you were to run, or worse, park a train across a gap between blocks powered by AU and BU with the controls not set to exactly the same voltage, you will draw a fault current that doesn't go through the circuit breaker and therefore could damage your transformer or wiring. Adding separate circuit breakers (for the KW, probably rated at 10 amperes) of the type I described to the A and B outputs will fix this as far as overcurrent is concerned.
Traditional transformers like the KW, and apparently modern electronic ones too, have no protection against overvoltage. The stray inductance that exists in the secondary windings of all transformers can produce brief voltage spikes of hundreds of volts when the winding is momentarily shorted and then opened--a sequence that may occur dozens of times in any derailment. Those spikes are harmless to a traditional locomotive but can be fatal to a modern one with semiconductor electonics on board. A very effective way to stop them is to install a TVS across each circuit. You can install this two-terminal device between the transformer terminals (for the KW, one from A to U, another from B to U), between the corresponding wires anywhere that is convenient, between the terminals of the lockon, or even inside the locomotive itself. (You need only one per circuit.) It limits the voltage in the circuit to the value for which it is rated. A reasonable one for toy trains is the Vishay 1.5KE36CA "Transzorb". You can get these from distributors like Mouser for 68 cents each. They are about 3/8 inch long and about 1/4 inch in diameter. Be sure the part number includes the "C", which means bidirectional, for use across AC circuits.
Fuses or fast circuit breakers are an alternative to TVSs. They help by opening the circuit early in the derailment to reduce the number of voltage spikes. But they cannot eliminate the ones that occur before they blow or trip. If you have a TVS in the circuit, you are protected against all spikes and don't need their fast-opening feature. In fact, it can be an annoyance.
..................................
I worry a bit that folks will misinterpret the first sentence in your last paragraph My view is that to protect every toy train transformer, old or modern, you need a working circuit-breaker, fuse or "fold-back" circuit. These devices protect against high currents and do not have to be "fast," especally in pre- and post-war transformers in which were set to "blow" in a matter of seconds. Slow! As Bob has indicated, too much speed here is likely to produce a lot of annoying power interruptions -- false positives, if you will. Other than that, "fast" fuses or circuit-breakers certainly won't hurt anything. Some folks feel more comfortable with them, especially with modern transformers..
But for electronic items on the layout, "downstream" from the transformer, to protect as fully as possible against voltage spikes, you need all the speed you can get. That's where the TVS diodes excel.
Thus, fuses and circuit breakers protect against high current; TVS diodes protect against high voltage, also called spikes. These are two different kinds of trouble, and they require two different solutions.
................................
Perhaps folks don't know how or where to search on this forum. There's a box on the right side of this page labled "Search Community" where one can can type in a subject such as "TVS" (quotation marks not needed) and uncover the mother lode. It also leads to another option with more "filters" for refined searches. The only remaining problem is to separate the wheat from the chaff....
In my Reply above, I pointed out that I run only the "G" gauge (Gauge One) and Collect old Lionel.
The "G" Gauge operates on 20 volts DC. My Power Supply is a 13 Amp "Switching Power Supply" that contains a "Crowbar" circuit and has no transformer. A "Crowbar Circuit" will shut you down in mille seconds on a sudden change in power demand. AC power supplies present a problem as they are too slow to react. In this case, Spike protection is best installed between the AC engine pickups and the DC PC Boards and can motors in the engine.
NOTE: For working inside a locomotive, a Static Mat and Cuff Kit can be bought at Radio Shack for about $25.
Locomotive on "Static Mat" with PS2 Upgrade Kit Installed
In all of my Post War transformers, I have replaced the circuit breakers with automotive type resetting breakers. I got the blade type fuse holders, soldered them in place of the old Lionel type breakers and inserted the automotive type. This was recommended by Bob Nelson too.
That's the one. Thanks for finding and reposting it.
I see what you mean about the last paragraph. I should have said something like, "Using fuses or fast circuit breakers instead of or in addition to slower conventional thermal circuit breakers is an alternative to using TVSs."
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month