O-Hump Yards

[Anonymous]

Dave v and Woodsy,
Woodsy's million bucks is safe. Almost NO two cars will roll down a hump at the same speed.

I was trying to simulate the "arresters" with electro magnets because I'd noticed how magnetic uncouplers "grabbed" cars in motion.

Occasionally I'd time the "pulse" just right and achieve the desired effect but that was as good as it got. (See earlier post about replacing couplers and even trucks)

Today I'd use a photo detector to know when a car came down the hump. That would trigger a burst of few-millisecond pulses to a row of electromagnets spaced alongside the outside rail.
Spacing, burst length etc would have to be experimented with to adjust for different wheelbases but eventually you'd have something that would decelerate most cars to an acceptable rolling speed. The few non-cooperative cars would have to be put in the "do not hump" section. Also very prototypical!

To get even more prototypical I might use more photo sensors and a junk computer like an old Tandy or such. I'd actually measure car speed and use only enough magnet pulses to slow the cars to the desired speed.
That is how real hump yard arresters work.
I've also wondered about pulse-magnetising the outside rails themselves. Seems it should slow down steel wheels rolling on it. I've not tried that though.

This could all be done on an off-hump lead as these cars will lose very little speed passing through a turn-out or two to get onto the right classification track. And there -is- a -range- of "acceptable speed" for couplers. Worst case woud be a no-close hit and that could be cured when the switcher came after that "cut" of cars. A push of the whole cut against the track-end bumper would close any that got hit too lightly.

I learned in my long ago experiments that lightweight cars needed a few ounces of weight lashed to their car base. I've always cut strips of lead from a roll sold for chimney flashing. (Our kids were taught NOT to chew painted woodwork or put other harmful things into their bodies) You can either size it to fit the whole car platform or in the case of opening boxcar doors etc. tie it down in the ends, out of sight of the doors.
Most of these cars needed weight anyway to avoid de-reailments during backing movements where they have too much weight behind them.

You are right. A working hump would have terriffic operating AND viewing value. Given todays inexpensive electronics, it can be done. And it should be. Maybe by a club who takes their sectional layout out for public viewing. More likely to find the electronic and computer talent as well as the track building etc. in such a group.

I'd drive 1500 miles just to see it working.

Joe

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually the electro magnet idea is very interesting, and could even be used to speed up the cars if they were going to come up way short. This is the kind of thing that makes a mag-lev train go. I believe it is called an impulse motor, but in your application it is a brake. Some amusement park rides work on this principle.

By the way, there really was no need for a new topic, our conversation on the old one was just getting warmed up. As the poster, I believe you can edit the topic title if you felt heat it wasn't quite what you wanted anymore.[swg]

Consider yourself invited, and I'll let you know when I get the first of 2 hump yards on my layout done, maybe some time next year. I'm just starting the benchwork now, but I have a lot of other things to do first.

Here are some photos of some turnouts that have been chopped.



BELOW: 5 turnouts and a diamond compressed for industrial switching.
2 are configured into a crossover.

[Anonymous]

yep, your electronics skills can be better used fixing your train/track controls and sound boards.

but.. a sucker is born every minute.
and maybe one will build a working model hump yard that work well.
i look forward to it.
i also want to see the builder's video of tests and trial & error. should be some funny choo-choo video!

[Anonymous]

Br. Elliot,
Thank You!! I warned you I was a "newbie" and didn't know the protocols or how to post photos or much of anything about this forum business.

Hence my gaffe' - starting a new topic when I didn't need to.

B-T-W you still didn't tell me how to post photos like you just did. Great aid indeed.
Those look like Ross switches to me. Did you just use your dremel tool to cut down the out-bound legs?? We've considered buying a pair of 11 degree opposing switches and trying that for the intermediate points in our few 20 foot long classification tracks.
It would make them optionally two each 8 or 9 foot classification tracks.
In a flat yard that could cut down the trip the switcher has to make.
Our "division" is limited to eleven foot overall train lengths. We are not blessed with a 2000 square foot train room but are lucky enough to have 16 by 52 feet of attic space with only one chimney and vent stack to work around.

I recall the Mall of America layout photos in CTT. WOW!!
Your gracious invitation to come see your working hump yards is herewith accepted. You simply activate by saying when its ready.
The Chairlady of The Board" of the LR&H and I will take a vacation out your way. She has family in the Kalamazoo - Battle Creek area so we can make a real trip of it. Neither has ever been in the Twin Cities either. Passed South of you on a migration West back in the late '60's but that's as close as we ever came.
Entered Minn at Albert Lea as I recall.

Thanks again for taking time to help and advise the LR&H.
Joe

[spankybird]

Hi Joe,

Here is a thread that should help you learn how to post pictures. Just click on it.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13916

Good luck and welcome to the forum [#welcome]

tom

[Big_Boy_4005]

Joe, I left some posting instructions over on the other topic. This is why it might have been better to stick with the one topic, I feel like a ping pong ball[(-D][(-D][(-D][swg]

Joe, you don't want "opposing" switches, though that may be their orientation. A crossover is made up of both the same "hand". A right crossover is 2 right hand switches, and a left the opposite.

Those are salvaged from the mall, but they are Right Of Way, and as far as I know that company is no longer in business. They were a lower cost alternative at the time to Ross or Curtis, but the workmanship was probably the reason for that. The difference is obvious when you see them up close. I have some serious repair work to do on some of those.

Here is a wideshot of the layout taken at the same time I took the pics of the switches, earlier today. The first hump yard will be on the lower level, above where all of those cars are sitting, and the second level, on the peninsula that is almost up, just to the right.

[Anonymous]

joe,
i say post whatever you want to post wherever you want to post it and i will too.[;)]
if i'm not mistaken the actual "Forum Administrator" said (in another post)

-- There's no real "administrator" of the CTT forum. I'm the editor of CTT, but I am not the chief guy in charge of this forum. Instead, the forum is a shared responsibility between the CTT editorial staff and another Kalmbach Publishing Co.

-- No one has the title of "moderator" either. We expect everyone to be respectful and moderate themselves.

In y opinion some of us could do a little less "these are the rules i made up" and "grammer correctin' " and type/talk about your trains.

thanks.

[FJ and G]

Joe,

Your suggestion is the best I've heard thus far reg. hump yards. Other ideas that have been bandied about are: puffs of air along the tracks from an aircompressor to move the cars along; little motors installed in each rolling stock that propell them along and to a stop, motor would be simple forward only; and a tail-hook like device between the rails that pulls the cars along and then disengages.

dave vergun

[Anonymous]

Elliot:

I've not heard the term "impulse motor;" I have heard the term "induction motor."

For best effect, you may find that installing a permanent magnet on the underside of the car & placing the electromagnets under the track will work better that putting the electromagnets next to the track & using the wheels. This will also allow the system to work with cars that have plastic wheels.

Lastly, where on earth did you find a warehouse for your layout, Elliot???

Tony

[FJ and G]

There are other places where trains operate on gravity.

When I lived in San Pedro, Calif., I used to watch the Harbor RR kick coal cars down a gravity ramp. Something of this nature could be a bit more practical for those who don't have a warehouse (like Elliot?)

dav

[john lea]

Humps, Pre 70's they were used 24/7. There was a hump and at the top a switchman pulled a pin on the car it rolled down a hill, a tower operator switched it to the right track. Then a "retarter operator" slowed it down. Then at the bottom of the "Bowl" another switchman put "skates" under a wheel to help stop the car and keep it from going out into the other yard or cars. They humped around 3,000 cars on a good day.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey guys, that's not a warehouse, that's my house. I designed and built it with a large basement in mind (that's a one track mind).[;)] All of the living space is on the main floor, and the trainroom is "only" less than half of the basement. 4450 square feet upstairs, and a basement to match, but then it sits on a 2.5 acre lot just far enough away from the city.

Tony, now I'm not sure if I used the correct term there. What I was refering to is a sequencial firing of electromagnets to propel something. I believe that a form of this technology is used in particle accelerators used in atomic research, but has a more novel application in amusement park rides.

Woodsy, I'm simply suggesting that we all try to keep the number of new topics down. I'm not trying to be bossy. Beside I was trying to explain to Joe how to post photos, that's why the ping pong ball remark.

If everyone here posted just one new topic per day, and there are 20 topics per page, how far down the list would a topic get pushed. Page 5, maybe deeper.

The problem with this forum is that it is not designed the way the OGR forum is. We only have one folder to work with, and it has no rhyme or reason. When the dust settles from this transition, it may be possible to get another folder, or maybe we won't need one.

Everyone wants to find their topic on page one, and by using a little "moderation" we can all have a more enjoyable time here. [:)]

[Anonymous]

i musta jumped in between the ping and the pong. my apologies. [*^_^*]
wouldn't be my first. [%-)]

so...
have we found anybody who wants to build a hump yard a let us come over to watch it go??!?!? [:D] [:D]

[john lea]

You guys gave me a good idea, humps, or, saucers yards, ever heard of them? Saucer yards, probably a very good thing for a classifaction yard on your RR. The manifest trains set out the cars for distribuation to various industries. Then the switcher grabs a cut and switches it into the various tracks. Thus, with the magnets and a saucer yard, in model, you can accomplish a same thing as a hump, almost, except for a continous movement. Do you see where I'm going. It's quite a bit of conversation so if you need to or want to know more about how to do a saucer yard, please contact me, thanks.

[Big_Boy_4005]

No problem Woodsy, I was in a hurry when I typed that first one with the ping pong, and had had a rough day and didn't take the time to check my wording. I can see now that it could have been confusing. Now I hope Joe understood it.

Oh, and you are invited too, but I think it will be next year some time.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Dear everyone,
While we are vaguely on the topic, I have a question about Ross Switches: Do I have to buy the switch machines seperately from the turnouts? The turnouts are expensive enough as it is...but they sure look nice [:)].

See you around the forums,
Daniel

[Anonymous]

Elliot,
are you really building a hump yard?
have you been doing tests/trials?
hows it working out?

[Anonymous]

Hey, no harm, no foul!!
This "newbie" doesn't mind at all when someone as helpful as you are tells him a thing or two about how to be a better participant.

I find that folks who most mind being coached usually have the most yet to learn.

I'm just very glad to have "met" a few of you via this marvelous medium.
I already have "top brass" approval of an expedition to the twin cities when Elliot has that hump yard working. And he WILL make it work!
Maybe we can meet you there too Woodsy.

Any of you coming to (or just passing thru) the Seacoast area of N H will at the toll station on I-95, be only 9 minutes from our doorstep.
Let us know you're coming by all means.
Don't know how far along this re-do of the LR&H will be but will happily show off whatever we've got done.

Thanks to Elliot's and "spankybirds" coaching I'm going to go find "shutterfly" and get a few of my digipix there so I CAN post them here. Old dawg but can still learn a new trick or two from time to time. Thanks guys!!

TRAINJUNKY 29-- The switch machines come separately OR factory installed (Ross calls that "Ross-Ready") Installing is a breeze and the DZ-1000 switch motor is a very good unit. But you're right. The completed turnout, Ross Switch and DZ1000 motor IS a bit "pricy".
We've now found a supplier who sells the turn-outs "Ross-Ready" for a price that actually eliminated our practice of "saving a few bucks by installing the motor ourselves".
E-mail me individually for the name of our vendor if you wish a referral.

RE: ELECTROMAGNETS My experiments were back in the late 1970's. I tried TONY'S suggestion of a magnet under the car. No good!!
Two magnets "GRAB" too hard and the darn car didn't just slow down, it flat out stopped!!
The metal car -platforms are too far off the ties to be affected by anything less than a mega-magnet. And it must be down between the rails or it hangs up passing "cow catchers" etc.

So, outside the rails worked best. And it IS prototypical. You can see the outside half of those "RETARDERS" (thanks for the right word John Lea, I couldn't remember it for the life of me when I started this) in hump yards.

I -KNOW- that my old TANDY TRS80 could handle the switching needs as would any of its compatriots from that period. You'd have to re-program yourself to write a programs in BASIC. Then write a simple program for pulse dwell times, calculating car speed from photo cell inputs etc.
But I've NO doubt you could get that computer to control your RETARDERS and leave each car, within a small range of weight differences, rolling along the "bowl track" feeds at an acceptable rate.

That would eliminate smashed couplers & car damage. Only the occasional "failed to close coupler" would have to be dealt with by the "yardstick brakeman" (we use one with a soft cloth wrapper on the car end) or by the switcher when it came after the "cut" of cars.

I notice that because we've been talking about MAGNETS, the Google advertisers on the right of my screen now houses that sell MAGNETS!! WOW what a technology this is!!

I'm wrapped tight around the axle now and we've about finished the LR&H yards in-the-flat, scenicking, ballast and all, or so help me I'd get back on this problem myself. Just writing about it has me all fired up. C'mon guys This MUST be done!!! [:D][:D]

Joe

[Anonymous]

Elliot:

I WISH I had that kind of space for a layout.

What you are referring to is a linear induction motor. Particle accelerators actually don't work on the linear induction principle (I have some familiarity with particle accelerators, having a BS in physics).

Linear induction is also the mechanism used to make maglev trains go. It's very efficient, but takes precise timing to work. Without computers, they wouldn't be possible.

And John:

The permanent magnet mechanism can be made to work, but the timing & duration of the electromagnet's energizing is very important, as you've found.

Tony

Tony

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tony, I stand corrected, thanks.

Woodsy, yes I WILL be building 2 hump yards, the first small one will be located on the far side of the support columns. I just did some work to prepare for the next section of benchwork, coming toward the camera.(See the photo earlier in this topic.) The center support rail is now up between the second and third columns, and will carry the load of the upper deck and the lower deck. Later today, I plan to add the 1 x 4's, and will post a new picture.

Joe, my goal is going to be to keep it as simple as possible, and see how it goes. I'll follow the lead of the prototype, keeping the turnouts on the grade then a slow taper to flat. I doubt that the cars will require much help stopping, but I may use one of my screw drive turnout motors on each track to raise and lower a piece of piano wire, which would serve as a bumper post, to keep the trains from running onto the turnouts at the far end of the yard.

[Anonymous]

Elliot:

Do you think you'll need to add weight to the cars?

Tony

[Anonymous]

ELLIOT!
well then... stop spending so much time at the computer posting & get to work and fini***he hump!!
[;)][8D][:)][:P][;)][bow][{(-_-)}][tup][;)]

i look forward to reading about it.[;)]

also, how steep is the bowl incline?

[FJ and G]

Elliot,

A hump yard in O scale would be a monumental achievement.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I don't want to add weight to the cars, that will just make it harder to get them up the helix. The plan is to work on the rolling characteristics to make them roll smoothly. I don't use post war, so that helps, plus a little plastic compatable oil, and a good hill, and they should fly down.

I tried this at the mall, and it kind of worked. there were future plans to do a lot more with it , but the display closed before I got a chance to really play with it. The initial tests were promising though. That was 11 years ago. Of course any model hump yard will be much smaller than a real one, in terms of number of tracks, and length of track, but then my whole layout is compressed, so why should the hump yard not be.

Well Woodsy, if I work too fast I spend money too fast, I kind of have to pace myself. By being online, I get ideas, share ideas, and get motivation in the process. I really am moving faster than most other people, because I am able to spend a lot of time on it. I an also working on other aspects of the layout between sesions of actual construction.[swg]

The first two photos below were taken two days apart, so you can see the progress.
The last one is of the area where the hump yard will be. Itwill have its receiving yard wrap around the corner at the far end, from right to left, and the hump will be on the left most of the way down, with the classification tracks in the foreground near the columns.