anotherone bites the dust on the other Forum

[Anonymous]

OGR=[censored]

[drjohn691]

The deletion of posts on the OGR forum was nonsense. Rich can have his beloved forum. I also cancelled my OGR subscription and had a refund check sent to me. Too much "lean" towards certain companies and deletions of reasonable and fair posts. Thank God for CTT![}:)]

[spodwo]

QUOTE: Somehow the OGR forum gets dragged here anyway in various posts in the form of "my forum is better than your forum" and bashing.

Which diminishes this forum and more often than most., makes it a place for people to trash consistently about the other forum. It's as if there is nothing better to talk about than OGR here. In short, it appears that CTT [the mighty Kalmbach] supports negative advertising against a smaller competitor by it's lack of monitoring [or caring for that matter].

And you certainly can drag the individual posters here through the mud as noted in numerous posts....

[Anonymous]

What is the motivation for bringing this topic up here? Thanks for keeping us posted about what is going on with the OGR Forum but anyone can go to the OGR forum to see for themselves. Some of us CHOOSE not to. Somehow the OGR forum gets dragged here anyway in various posts in the form of "my forum is better than your forum" and bashing. I'd wi***he words "OGR forum" were put in the automatic eject from this forum. I realize that I can skip over topics so labled, but this stuff is showing up subtly in regular topics as well and detracting from the spirit of the forum. Incredibly, these topics seem to gain the most views.

[Anonymous]

Odd-D,

True..True.

[jkerklo]

Odd-D,

Apologies. My statement in a previous post was not quite clear.

I would have found a subscription increase more acceptable that an outright forum fee. But whether or not I would have renewed my magazine subscription is not considered. I would have concerns, even though I like the magazine.

Even a forum fee for those who did not subscribe to the magazine would have detrimental effects, although it might take longer to take effect.

Generally, I think that any attempt to obtain direct revenue from a web site that supports a company and its products is not likely to succeed. The company should be using the web site to promote its products and gather information useful to product development. If it isn't, then something's wrong.

There are web sites that I have paid for. For example, business information sites. But these have data that I use in my consulting practice and can well justify as a business expense.

There are other ways to gain revenue from a web site, or forum. Magazines are an advertising business. CTT lists google selected advertising, selected by copy content, in the right hand column of their screen. They get paid for it.
I even like the ads; they can be informative. Much more creative than a subscription fee.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Anonymous]

For those who suggest raising the price of a subscription to OGR to pay for posting to the forum, have you an answer for the subscriber who doesn't ever use the forum when he grumbles about paying for YOUR fun? If they are going to charge then charge the ones who use the service. Odd-d

[FJ and G]

Alton,

It seems like you have some sort of issue or vendetta with me. I don't know what your problem is but you are starting to remind me of a tick that I had to pull off my dog the other day.

Also, you seem to derive immense pleasure from tracking my movements around the forum and attacking me. Why don't you take your toys and go on home now.

If you don't know what I mean, go back and look at some of the rubbish you've been writing about me. I hope you don't have some kind of a thing for me.

[alton6]

Now, see what I mean. This (person) even knew I was having some lower back conversations just lately. He's EVERYWHERE!

It would have been nice if he had gotten into my computer earlier, and told me what not to do so that I would now be telling you about this...

[jkerklo]

If so, Joe, I don't think it will work.

I saw a number of "hey i'm now on this forum" posts that said they had just started a subscription to CTT. More magazine subscribers, more advertising revenue. CTT is smiling, big time.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[CSXJOE]

Maybe Rich's plan is to force everyone over here, increase the bandwidth or whatever costs money to run this thing and drive CTT into bankruptcy.

[FJ and G]

Alton,

Maybe it was your back pain meds kicking in.

[jkerklo]

Don't count sheep ... count trains!

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[alton6]

Hey, my online status just stalled. My newly installed Norton 2004 announced it (she?) had dectected an intrusion attempt. Maybe it was David V...

I've not been firewalled until now. So, I guess it works. Go Norton!

[alton6]

John.....Well said! In my second year of struggling at publishing an annual small local business directory years ago, I decided to (A) significantly increase the price of listing, even for renewals, (B) shrink listings, as I could see the big publishers did and (C) drastically increase output and distribution so as to leave few uninformed.

(A) and (C) didn't cooperate. There wasn't a third year edition. We all live and learn.

Carl

[Anonymous]

Didn't OGR make a bundle off the wire they sold?[:-^]

Rich = [censored]

[FJ and G]

"Pease.........and soon he's coming to a computer near you....!

Seriously, people who have more ideas than I do sometimes drive me crazy too.
David's getting older, you know. Maybe he not sleep so good..."

--------------------

Yes, must be a lack of sleep. Maybe I will try counting sheep.

[Anonymous]

No don't be mad. I'm just trying to figure out how you can get everything you post about done. That's all. This is a neat place and I'm learning a lot. I have been getting some good advice for my questions but I can't post all the time. Like right now I'm in the field office on a break and waiting for a delivery so I'm writing this so I will have some time tonight to work on my stuff. I also post at night before I go to bed because it actually helps me sleep. Don't throw me off this site because I asked this question I am just a little curious that's all. I've gotta go now.

[FJ and G]

John,

Agree. OGR always denies this but a lot of what gets deleted seems (has the appearance) of being conflicts of interest with their advertisers. I know I will get beat up for saying that but I just did.

Also, reg. the archives, a lot of good information got deleted. Stuff was never organized into categories such as valuable tips saved to their tips site. Granted, someone would have had to do that work but why pay $18 and then not have someone do that.

For $18 I would want at least a free boxcar mailed to me, along with a T-shirt and cap.

[alton6]

Pease.........and soon he's coming to a computer near you....!

Seriously, people who have more ideas than I do sometimes drive me crazy too. David's getting older, you know. Maybe he not sleep so good...

[jkerklo]

I have been reviewing the topics on OGR's forum fee, but haven't previously posted an opinion. I might be ready. This topic's participants seem to be a little more analytical, than ranting.

OGR is a lot smaller operation than CTT and its parent company. They may need the $18 to stay in business or to support web activity. Unfortunately, if this is true, the hobby is going to lose a very nice magazine.

Most companies consider a web site, and whatever features it supports, a very cost effective way to promote the company and its products, to comunicate with customers, and to gather marketing and technical information. This is best done if customers have a good reason to visit the site regularly, and something like a forum is a great way to encourage regular visits. Charging for a forum defeats this valuable marketing tool.

Base costs for a web site are small. Mine costs me about $12/year for the URL and $6/month, paid yearly, for the host. ORG's traffic is high so their costs would be higher, but compared to other ways to promote and gather information, its very cheap.

If OGR needs additional funds, I can think of better ways to get them. For example, I don't think I would have objected to a couple of dollars increase in the magazine subscription to reply on the forum, if it came with the subscription.

There is something wrong with looking, and learning, for free, but making contributions costs $18. Yet, without a free look, no one would pay the fee, sight unseen. Bit of a quandry.

Some forum contributors make very valuble posts. Their expertise is what subscribers are supposed to be paying for. A free subscription offer may have kept them from jumping to this forum. A masthead of experts could make a subscription forum work. Overhead for experts would be small, since they could be located anywhere. An opportunity?

Layout pictures are nice, but a limit of ten, for $18, is stupid. I can have my own URL for just a bit more, and post hundreds of pictures. There is software available that even makes this easy. Most ISPs offer a few HTML pages for subscribers, free, and even provide easy-to-use software for generating them.
Other sites allow web storage of pictures.

Topics by manufacturers. How much are they paying for the privledge? I have seen some comments by manufacturers. What baloney? Highly skilled at filling four screens, and not saying crap.

$18/year is not a lot of money, but if I multiply it by the number of forums, it is significant. Charging for a forum, in its current form, just won't work. Some forums I only visit occasionally, and could not justify paying a fee, just in case I might be able to contribute, or have a question. I would not be on any forums if I had to pay a fee for the first question or contribution. Mostly, I would have trouble keeping track of what forums I had paid for; I can't even keep track of all the user names and passwords for getting on them, even though I try to use the same ones, mostly.

I would not pay for anything that regularly deleted posts, for any but obscene language or some such, reasons. I haven't seen anything I would want deleted in any of the forums I have looked at. (I can recall some that came close, however. Fortunately, topics that don't get replies move off the index screen quickly.)

What would I pay for?

Paid experts, that could answer any question, accurately.

An archive of questions, complete with edited responses. I note that the same question comes up over and over again. There is not a good way to refer a questioner to previous responses.

An archive of magazine articles. Even though I have almost every OGR and CTT, I don't subscribe to others, and they are sometimes hard to find, have been loaned, etc. References from questions to the archive would save me time.

Accurate, objective, up-to-date, product reviews and comparisons.

Something like e-bay's "rating" on sellers/buyers, but for train products and vendors.

What would you pay for?

I should have posted this on the ORG fourm, but it probably would have been deleted, real quick.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Anonymous]

After being on the other forum,its real clear there are many favorites that post whatever they like and its not deleated,bunch of BS, Many good opinions are always posted, sometimes they are not agreed with but that 's the idea of a forum! By deleating info nothing is gained by its members and after a while members who don't have "favorited status" just plain give up and leave!
I don't need the other forum and its webmaster to enjoy this hobby,as a matter of fact I'm tired of seeing his picture,He's very annoying!

45467MARTIN

[FJ and G]

Brian,

I haven't seen that us vs. them mentality on CTT at all and I agree with everything you have said. We really do agree a lot or are tolerant.

Now, Pease, please tell me what you really think of me!
:-)

[brianel027]

I'm really sorry to see things going the way the are going. I mean, I kind of lost it for the OGRR Forum. That doesn't mean the owners are bad or the folks there are bad.

YES, I think there has been a strong leaning toward the scale-end over there for a very long time. And yes, there were some comments there a long time ago that I took great offense too. BUT that's not really a reflection on the vast majority of folks there - many of whom are over here. And after the initial apprehensive worries here, so far everything's just fine.

I find it ironic how comments that some of you guys made - that weren't intended at all to be inflamatory - ended up being deleted. Meanwhile the weenie comments stay up. By the way, I understand how that in a group of friends, comments can be made that no one is bothered by. Amongst friends, there is understanding. Even an element of allowable kidding around.

But there were times when these comments between friends started looking like a "clique." When you read comments that poke fun at someone on a emotionless computer screen, they quickly lose the element of fun.

All that aside, I figure things will work out somehow. I hope so anyways.

Hey, I see things from my vantage point. Not everyone agrees with me, and that's okay. What I have liked about posting here is a greater level of acceptance. Sure, there some scale guys here. There's also some 027 guys here too, posting actively. I know from being here a while that Elliot (Big_Boy4005) doesn't always see eye-to-eye with me. But he doesn't tell me run scale or get out of the hobby. He doesn't call me names either. And for all our operating differences, I think we do agree on a lot actually.

The hobby needs more people. We want to be tearing down the fences, not putting up new ones. You can stand firmly on one side of that fence, and still smile and wave to the guy on the other side. You can even unlock the gate door and leave it open.

That's how it feels here for me.
And my gate is unlocked and wide open!!

[Anonymous]

Geez man! I looked at the OGR site and you have over 7000 posts that stayed! All in a little over a year! And you say that you had "about a 1/3 of my posts" deleted?! That would put you just about over 10,000 on that site alone! 343 here in less than a year, who knows how many on other sites...Do you have an IV bottle strapped to your arm so you don't have to get up to eat? Do you have a train layout at all? Are you rich and don't have to work? This is scary! I have to work and make money do stuff around my place and eat and sleep and other stuff. I have very little time for a hobby. But when I do it is to relax and work on my hobby. It seems like your internet site here is a full time job. Just curious about how you have all this time for here and stuff. It is very wierd. Don't be mad.

[cnw1995]

Dave, don't feel you have to limit your posts - I enjoy them - they make me think or make me laugh.

[FJ and G]

I look forward to seeing your articles about scratchbuilding.

I'll try to limit my posts to 1 or 2 a day with a lot of replies to yours & others as I don't want to be to obtrusive and make an as* of myself here.

Btw, at one time, about 1/3 of my posts were getting deleted on OGR. So far, none have disappeared from here. It esp. was frustrating to try to reply to someone's post on OGR, only to see it vanish while I was in the middle of replying!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vitabile

David:

The $18 becomes mandatory to post on June 1.

Tony

They won't get a plug nickel of my money. I absolutely refuse to pay for contributing to a forum of any type. Is anyone going to be foolish enough to pay for the EXACT same thing that other forums provide free? Only time will tell, but I have confidence that most of my fellow model railroaders are smart enough not to throw away their money on something that ALL other forums provide free. That other forum provides nothing or offers nothing that warrants a fee. I hope that all other people on that other forum also refuse to pay. The censorship on that other forum also bothers me. If you somehow state an opinion on a post which goes contrary to what the moderator believes is correct, the post is quickly deleted. Sounds like a rather hostile aproach to me.
I now intend to post mini articles on my scratch built structures and things about my layout here on CTT. Seems like a friendlier place to share your hobby.

[FJ and G]

eZak,

What is esp. ridiculous is that subscribers to OGR would have to pay as well. What ever happened to member benefits?

I'm glad that CTT's forum is free and that there are no plans to charge. Heck, why should I pay to give someone advice? Yet, I can lurk for advice for free. Doesn't make sense.

If every site on the internet started charging, it would no longer be a place anyone can afford, with free-flowing ideas.

Also, I'm wondering what exactly the $18 pays for. I never saw the breakdown. I think if you pay that amount, you should at least have that information. But I haven't been visiting there too often so they may have put that out by now.

I don't want to say anything bad about anyone over there. i just don't understand their logic. Why shoot the pooch, as Tom Wolff would say.

[Anonymous]

David:

The $18 becomes mandatory to post on June 1.

Tony