Top 5 postwar engines?

[Deputy]

2020

671

671RR

681

682

Hmmmm...looks like a pattern is forming.

[J. Daddy]

2020

671

671RR

681

682

Hmmmm...looks like a pattern is forming.

yep they are a beaut! Don't  forget the late scale version released - the almighty S-2.

[RockIsland52]

This thread is killing me.  Just when I thought I was finally settling down from the recent F3 and Berk threads, you guys start.  Drool.

Jack

I have started to respond to this thread and then stopped several times because some of my choices for the Top 5 cannot be supported by generally accepted fact or function.  My choices tend to shamelessly fall back into personal preference and bias, whether I have that engine or not.  Favorite versus best........hmmmmmm.  What a dilemma.

Sir James said it best, this is a loaded question, but I am addicted to the thread.  If nothing else, the thread has helped me learn.  Especially when the posters explain their choices and they post pictures.

I even tried to construct a "If price and rarity was no object" approach.  Failed there too.  

Jack

[J. Daddy]

This thread is killing me.  Just when I thought I was finally settling down from the recent F3 and Berk threads, you guys start.  Drool.

Jack

I have started to respond to this thread and then stopped several times because some of my choices for the Top 5 cannot be supported by generally accepted fact or function.  My choices tend to shamelessly fall back into personal preference and bias, whether I have that engine or not.  Favorite versus best........hmmmmmm.  What a dilemma.

Sir James said it best, this is a loaded question, but I am addicted to the thread.  If nothing else, the thread has helped me learn.  Especially when the posters explain their choices and they post pictures.

I even tried to construct a "If price and rarity was no object" approach.  Failed there too.  

Jack

Hey Jack,

Do you have any pictures of those F3's? Sounds like I should add them to my list!

[RockIsland52]

This thread is killing me.  Just when I thought I was finally settling down from the recent F3 and Berk threads, you guys start.  Drool.

Jack

I have started to respond to this thread and then stopped several times because some of my choices for the Top 5 cannot be supported by generally accepted fact or function.  My choices tend to shamelessly fall back into personal preference and bias, whether I have that engine or not.  Favorite versus best........hmmmmmm.  What a dilemma.

Sir James said it best, this is a loaded question, but I am addicted to the thread.  If nothing else, the thread has helped me learn.  Especially when the posters explain their choices and they post pictures.

I even tried to construct a "If price and rarity was no object" approach.  Failed there too.  

Jack

Hey Jack,

Do you have any pictures of those F3's? Sounds like I should add them to my list!

J Daddy.....I'm an F3 wannabe.

OK, you've got me, so I'll stick my toe into this cauldron with just 2 picks, not 5.  I am taking the "price and rarity is no object or part of the consideration" approach.

1.)  F3: If I could only select 1 diesel.......2245 Texas Special AB.

OK, it isn't dual-motored.  Got that out of the way.  But, I like the 2245 Texas Special F3s because of the stunning paint scheme, B unit, and the conversion possibilities to a dual-motored engine set.

Geedub's TS shell restoration thread http://cs.trains.com/forums/1505856/ShowPost.aspx got me going on the TS (again), including his link to his pictures.  A must see for everyone.

Other posters/threads like ogauge regarding the addition of a motor and power truck to a TS dummy B unit.  Or adding a second powered A unit.  These threads and posts got me thinking even more.  Ideal outcome....Powered A Powered B Powered A.  Don't know if a trasformer could get it moving, but the possibilities. WOW!    

Very Close Alternate:  2343 SF F3 AA Warbonnets, what's not to love?  It's got it all....the most F3 detail, dual motors, magnetraction.  One of the most famous and storied in real life.  The GM connection. There's a link with this one to my childhood, wanted one ever since.  Add in a B unit and power it while you are at it.

This is not to say I don't like any of the other F3s, these are just my preferences.

2.) Steamer:  If I could select only one steamer.....the 773 scale Hudson.  I just love what it looks like....detail, the size, and what it does.  From the detail on the boiler to the open cowcatcher, plus arguably the nicest tender Lionel ever built (2426W).  Funny I don't read much from posters about its pulling power.  No matter.

Very close alternate:  726 Berk from 1947-1949 because of the 2-8-4 set up, the sharp Baldwin drivers, and the smoke unit (versus bulb).  It just oozes "powerful."  Even though it didn't have magnetraction.  Cindy Crawford has a mole, but that's ok too.

I have to stop there because I am hyperventilating and agonizing and about to change my mind.  Will fill out my Top 5 Postwar Engines list later while you guys continue to play with my mind.

Jack

[Berk765]

Here is my list of my top 5 favorite postwar steamers. Or my current wish list if you will. Maybe Santy Clause would bring me some?

1.726 Berkshire

2.671/681/682 Turbine

3.736 Berkshire

4.1666 Prairie

5.2055 Hudson

[RockIsland52]

Berk.....regarding #5, I told you to list my 2046 Hudson, not a 2055!

Jack

[PostwarMan07]

Wow! This is really turning into a great thread.  I looked over the posts and so far heres where we stand...

1.   773  Hudson   -    seems like most people love this engine but a lot dont feel its features are not worth the price tag... still #1

2.   The FM trainmasters   -   When you think postwar power you think of these.

3.   2343 santa fe F3s   -   Seems the santa fe and the 2343, 2344, 2345 class of lionel F3s are both most popular and reach a median with these engines.

4.   671 / 2020 turbines   -   The older turbines look to be a lot more popular than those with magnetraction.

5.  726 berkshire and the GG1 are in a tie for 5th.  Seems the pro magnetraction (736) fans have stolen some votes from the berkshire party.

[RockIsland52]

John.....guess I didn't get extra points for including an explanation of my votes, nor was the explanation persuasive with anyone else.  Bribery next.

Jack

[mdainsd]

It has turned into a great thread.

i wonder if the gap between 1 and 2 closes, if the FM is the Jersey Central?

[Lenny the Lion]

1. 773 Hudson, I'll bet no one thought of that one!

2. Twin motor f3's

3. Blue and yellow Virginian

4. 671 turbines

5. NW2 switchers, the blue 624 C&O being my favorite.

[RockIsland52]

1. 773 Hudson, I'll bet no one thought of that one!

2. Twin motor f3's

3. Blue and yellow Virginian

4. 671 turbines

5. NW2 switchers, the blue 624 C&O being my favorite.

Lenny.......Which one?

Jack

[Berk765]

Berk.....regarding #5, I told you to list my 2046 Hudson, not a 2055!

Jack

Whoops!! Sorry. I listed my 2055 Hudson. I have run a 2046 Hudson at a shop before and I did love it though because it looked like the Berkshire. It had the 12 wheel Pennsy style whistling streamlined tender too that I just love.

[RockIsland52]

Berk......Among the plethora of smaller postwar Hudsons, the 2046 has the Berk boiler as does the 2056 and the 646.  If you look in www.postwarlionel.com you can get a very good side view of each, 2046 versus 2055.  Personally, I prefer the 2046's additional side detail.  I selected the 773 in my "Top" list because it is slightly larger, scale, and I like the details.  I'm just not fortunate to own one, yet.

Wish this thread was named:  "Top 5 postwar engines and why?"  It would really vault the knowledge of us rank amateurs who havn't seen or run some of these great choices up close and personal.

Great thread that has wheels.

Jack

[Lenny the Lion]

1. 773 Hudson, I'll bet no one thought of that one!

2. Twin motor f3's

3. Blue and yellow Virginian

4. 671 turbines

5. NW2 switchers, the blue 624 C&O being my favorite.

Lenny.......Which one?

Jack

 

Santa Fe 2343

[Berk765]

Berk......Among the plethora of smaller postwar Hudsons, the 2046 has the Berk boiler as does the 2056 and the 646.  If you look in www.postwarlionel.com you can get a very good side view of each, 2046 versus 2055.  Personally, I prefer the 2046's additional side detail.  I selected the 773 in my "Top" list because it is slightly larger, scale, and I like the details.  I'm just not fortunate to own one, yet.

Wish this thread was named:  "Top 5 postwar engines and why?"  It would really vault the knowledge of us rank amateurs who havn't seen or run some of these great choices up close and personal.

Great thread that has wheels.

Jack

Yeah, I'm definitly an amatuer, the only engines I have on that list was the 1666 and the 2055. I only ran the 2046 once. It cought my eye because I thought it was a Berkshire. I had a Williams 6-8-6 Turbine that was NICE!!!!! But not the original Lionel version.

[jwse30]

Well, I'll have to go with what I know. Of the postwar engines I own, here are my five favorites:

1. 2046 - Mine pulls very well, and looks good on tighter radius track

2. 2025 - Pulls well and looks good.

3. 2020 - pulls so-so, but looks and sounds different than the rest of my steamers 

4. 624 - pulls very well, and the blue paint makes it stand out a bit .

5. 2055 - pulls good, and looks good; the ATSF influence makes it look pretty unique.

To add value to the equation, all but the 2055  were less than $100 each. I bought the 2055 in a set with 3 cars (including 3656 w/ corral) and a 1033 transformer for $200. Best of all,they all came preweathered, with scratches, chips, and dust

 

J White

 

[PostwarMan07]

Jack,  I dont accept bribes of any form but I do like to get gifts.... a set of 2245 texas special F3s would be nice.  If I were able to test them maybe I could add them to the list.

I looked over the posts again (I had a lot of free time this weekend) and added the new lists as well.  Heres an updated list along with the values according to POSTWAR LIONEL TRAINS 1945-1969 by david doyle (2007).

#1     773   hudson                       $1200    this is the 1950 version

#2     2343   santa fe F3s              $500

#3     671   turbine                       $200

#4     726   berkshire                    $475     this is the 1946 version

#5     FM trainmasters                   $800    average of lackawanna and virginian

#6     GG1s                                  $1100  average of all postwar GG1s

#7     2020   turbine                      $225

#8     736   berkshire                     $350

#9     2025  2-6-2/2-6-4                 $125

#10   2055   hudson                      $200

 

When you look at the prices you can see tha the 027 engines have a lot of value as well when other factors are averaged in.  One other thing I did notice with the 671 is that some came with a tender that had a backup light??   If so, is it operational with the e unit?

[Deputy]

I had a 2671 tender with the backup light on a 682 I used to own. Actually, any 2046 or 2671 tender can be equipped with a "backup light kit", and there are quite a few available on Ebay or from parts places. It just involves drilling out the 3 holes on the top back of the tender and gluing in a clear plastic "light bar". Then a simple mount of a light inside the tender. The one I had stayed on all the time. The wiring was strictly inside the tender, so no linkage to the E-unit on the loco. I suppose you probably could wire it into the loco to work with the E-unit. Lionel did that on some of the smaller steam switcher locos where a red light was mounted on the tender. I can tell you right now, the light bar kit or the factory-installed light bar are barely visible unless you turn off every light in the room and run the loco at full speed. The clear plastic light bar is supposed to "conduct" light from the little bulb like a fiber optic filament. Only it doesn't work very well. Certainly not as well as the new locos with lighted tenders. And the amount of light depended on the track current. But what the heck, this was 1950s technology.
If you are buying a 2046 or 2671 tender, I'd think twice about paying big money for one that has the backup light. A lot of them were installed by Lionel dealers as well as private individuals. Nowadays it's probably easier and more effective to use LEDs to light the tender. They would be more visible and not get as hot or draw as much current.

[RockIsland52]

Yuz giz might want to check out some of the postwar retail pricing on some of this stuff provided by Bob Nelson and Mel Hazen in the 2031 Alco thread.  Bird added current retail pricing when adjusted for inflation.  Makes for interesting reading.

John/Postwar......great thread.  Keep it rolling.  I'd like to encourage folks who voted to go back and edit their posts to provide some background for their choices.  If I can be shamelessly biased, so can you.   

Jack

[PostwarMan07]

Thanks for the info on the tender.  Not much use for a reverse light unless theres a front coupler IMO anyway.  Is that tender a 12 wheel or 8 wheel?

Awesome numbers about inflation.  I copied the two posts from bob and bird on inflation.  Here they are:

Posted by Bob Nelson:

I just looked in the 1950 catalog.  The 2343 and 2344 were $43.50.  The 2343C and 2344C B units were $11.95.  The other locomotives that year were 2330 at $37.50, 622 at $25, 736 at $37.50, 6035 at $37.50, 681 at $32.50, and 2036 at $21.50.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Bird:

ere's a fun perspective.

According to one inflation calculator, in 2007 dollars (adjusted for inflation from 1950) those products would cost the following today...

 

2343 & 2344 = $370.91

2343C & 2344C = $101.89

2330 = $319.75

622 = $213.16

736 = $319.75

6035 = $319.75

681 = $277.11

2036 = $182.32

[Deputy]

2046 is eight wheel. 2671 is 12 wheel. 2046 is the more common version.

[RockIsland52]

While perusing the "votes" for the Top 5 Postwar Engines (and I'm still 3 short on my list), I got to wondering if high production numbers should enter into the selection consideration.  High production numbers would suggest a great(er) positive influence on the success of the toy train industry, then and now.

Jack

[PostwarMan07]

If that were the case Id have to say the F3s and Turbines would win in a landslide victory. I wonder how many of each were built total. I know that lionel sold over 10 million milk cars in the late 40s and early 50s. Must be a pretty high number for these as well.

[runtime]

So called market value seems to have as much to do with rarity as desirability based on other factors such as esthetics and performance.

For many of us, I don't think rarity alone influences 'top 5' desirability very much. Some of the nicest engines are not necessarily rare, and therefore not necessarily very expensive(eg. 675,646). Others, presumably also not rare, command higher prices (power? graphics?) (eg SF or NYC F3s). Why does a 736 command a premium over a 646 (same boiler shell, different drivetrain, different motor, both with magnatraction, similar pulling power)?

Doyle lists a rarity factor, but I don't know where he gets it, since I'm not aware of published Lionel production numbers by model.

runtime

[RockIsland52]

I would really like to encourage those that have posted their choices to go back and edit their posts to include the reasons for their choices.  Your opinions might open up a few eyes, mine included, and make for some lively discussion. 

John/Postwar......the 646 Hudson example you brought up ties into my selection of the 773 in my list.  I wasn't selecting the 773 as my #1 choice on the basis of rarity or the prices it commands.  I selected it because the remnants of steam were my first memory of real trains as a kid.  The 773 is a scale Hudson, and I too prefer the detail of the Berk boiler.

Similarly, I picked the 2245 Texas Special AB F3 as my #2 choice overall and my top F3, despite being single motored, over the more detailed dual-motored Warbonnet Santa Fe AA 2343.  I chose it for the red with white paint combo, the scale dimension (over FA ALCcos), and the B unit, aesthetics (as runtime put it) over function/pulling power.  You see a lot of Warbonnets, and they are eye catching as well.  But you don't come across so many of the "in your face" red TS units.  Both nonetheless are worthy from my biased perspective.

I don't own either of my first two choices.  In fact, while the 773 is my first Top 5 choice, my first purchase would be the 726 Berk for the Baldwins, tender, and 2-8-4 drive.  And I already have a Hudson class 2046 I want buried with me.  

The F3 pick of others might very well tie in to a real train that branded itself on their memory growing up, one they rode, one they saw at a train museum.  Or one (toy train engine) they couldn't afford at another place and time.  In private aircraft, I always lusted after a Cessna 310B because Sky King flew one after he traded in the Beechcraft Super 18 (that ought to start a lot of the younger crowd hitting Google).   

I would be extremely reticent to part with any of the engines I do have because I can't replace the memories of my first trains.  Beauty is in the eye (and mind) of the beholder.  So is the Top 5!

Great thread,

Jack

[daan]

1. 2343 Santa Fe F-3.

2. 675/2025, early.

3. 726 Berkshire.

4. 671/2020 turbine.

5. GG-1.

I would swap the GG1 and the turbine, but the F3 (no matter 2343 or 2353) is absolutely the number 1!! Each time I see that F3 it brings a special feeling, it's a beautifull engine!!

The NW 2 switcher engines with die-cast frame are also one of my favourites, so is the lackawanna trainmaster.. All very well fabricated, well detailled even for today and well running, though e-units work better with 60 Hz.

[PostwarMan07]

Jack, I also agree that memories from childhood affect our choices.  Personally, as a kid, I wanted a 2025 looking steam engine and not some new hudson or F3 with all the bells and whistles.  The reason being is that one day as I was looking around in the attic I found my grandpas 2025 that didnt work at the time.  I wanted one of my own.

Later on Items that interested me were the santa fe F3s, New Haven EP5s, 726 Berkshires, and accessories such as the ZW, 128 newstand, and 145 gateman.  I later found out that the first train magazine I ever got (CTT) had all of these on the cover and/or had an article on people getting them for christmas.

The 2025, santa fes, and 726 berkshire were all on my list.  The 773 and FM are just so nice I had to add them.

BTW, Im glad a lot of people have taken a personal approach to this and not just what people have told them are the best engines.  Maybe CTT can make some online poll on this and have the staff add their opinion as well.  Has this ever been done??

[mpzpw3]

Decided not to edit my post, but add to the topic here, with my reasoning:

1. 2343 Santa Fe F-3: Has magna-traction, dual motors, and a matching B-unit. It also holds some sentimental value to me.

2. 675/2025, early: Well proportioned, runs like a Swiss watch when maintained, pulls very well with no magna-traction or traction tires.

3. 726 Berkshire: See 675/2025 comments above.

4. 671/2020 turbine: Iconic postwar Lionel engine, completely new tooling for the postwar-era, pulls well, and looks different than any other postwar steamer. The single drive rod makes a statement when running. I don't know what that statement is, but it looks interesting doing it.

5. GG-1: The compression couldn't have been better done. Die-cast body, nice graphics, and above all, the only electric that looks natural with no overhead power, probably thanks to Lionel marketing at the time.

As I noted previously, I don't have a Berk. or a GG-1. Would like to, though. There are other postwar engines that I do have, but they don't have the same appeal that these do. In my opinion, the 2055 just isn't as smooth as an early 2025, same for the 2026-type engines. I finally aquired a 2056 with 4 passenger cars, and it doesn't fit in the top five list, although possibly number 6? The GP's and Nw's are great, just not on par with the 2343 F-3's for some reason, again, in my opinion, and yes, I would like to have a few of each.

The 773 would be at the top of my list, along with the FM's, except they are a little long for O-31 curves. The compression of the alco's doesn't seem right to me, either. Perhaps my favorite engine is my Dad's old scout engine, because it is where it all started for me. I tried to not let nostalgia play too big of a part in my list.

[lionel2]

1. 726 I have a 1946 and 1947 versions, both look great.

2. 2343 F3 very strong

3. 2321  long and strong

4. 671/2020  smokes like no other

5. 736  good magnetraction