Would like to start an O scale outdoor layout

[kcndrr]

Found your forum, know nothing about "O" scale.
I am currently a "G" scaler. I have an outdoor layout with over 500 feet of track in Central California. I am looking at changing scales to "O" and staying outside. I have no contacts for this gauge in the area and am looking for support and supplier for gauge. I have no knowledge of "O" scale but have seen pictures and like what I see.
Questions;

1. Will "O" scale survive outside in my area?
2. What scale or gauge would be best (O-O27-2 rail-3 rail)).
3.  What manufactures would you suggest?
4. Currently I am battery R/C control, understand "O" scale is more DCC control, what would I need to power system?
5. Understand some systems already have sound and accessory control, is this true for only one manufacture or will they intermix with each other?  

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am planning on pulling up my "G" scale track and hopefully replacing with "O" scale for wider curves, longer trains and more open areas.  

KC Marshall
Oakdale CA 
[e-mail]

[Black Diamond]

   Hello,

          I am by far not an expert.. on O gauge. But I will tell you I dont think the O gauge track will last outside. Due to rain and rust and corrosion. I think the G scale track is brass (I am not sure on this either). I think the G scale is engineered for more outside use then O scale is. The power consumption is eletric. There are a variety of differnt transformers available but again I would not recommend them to be used outside. I have seen some battery powered trainsets...around christmas time, but I think they are G scale also. I would recommend Lionel as a brand. But I would not recommend to try and use them outside. Well you could but, I think you have in mind a more permanet layout, as opposed to setting it up and taking it down for the night and bringing it back in. Not to mention the engines and all that I dont think they would go with water to well. In conclusion O scale and outside, not a pretty picture.

[chuck]

Most O guage track systems are not intended for outdoor use.  There are nickel silver and stainless steel rails available but most of the ties are not UV rated. You may need to do a lot of track maintenance.

You can go with two or three rail systems.  Two rail would be closer to what you are used to but three rail O is generally easier to find.  You can adapt three rail O to two rail by swapping out trucks or at least wheel sets.

There are impressive sound sets available for O scale from a number of vendors BUT the speaker size and power limits on O scale sound amplifiers (usually 1 watt) will probably produce anemic sounds in the great out doors.

You may want to ask yourself why you would want to go with O scale for outdoor use if you are already using G scale.

[Moozuki]

Atlas makes track that is UV treated and can be used outdoors.

[dougdagrump]

Welcome !

The loco's and rolling stock will operate outdoors, but they are not designed for exposure to the elements, sun/rain/etc. Track wise I believe that Atlas "O" nicle/silver or stainless have UV stabilized plastic ties, or Gargraves track are good for outdoor use.

If you should decide to go for it I would suggest going with the "O" scale equipment, the larger loco's will be equipped with the larger/better quality speakers for sounds. With the 2-rail you have your choice of DCC, MTH's DCS or Lionel's TMCC. With 3-rail you will have the same choices as above except for DCC, it is my understanding that the DCC is designed to operate in a DC environment as opposed to AC.

Most any of the scale stuff is good, but like anything you buy you will sometimes encounter a clinker. As mentioned earlier they will require more maintenance than if run indoors, if memory serves correctly the "G" locos have their drive gears inside the motor block whereas the "O" most do not.

One of our posters was experimenting with battery ops/control, but I haven't seen him posting for awhile. Must be getting senile, can't remember his handle here on the forums.

 

[Anonymous]

All Atlas 'O', Gargraves, and ROSS track systems can be used out doors.

Atlas uses Plastic Ties and Nickle/Silver rails

Gargraves and ROSS use real wood ties, not sure what their rail structure is comprised of - but I think it is stainless as it can still be used with Magna-Traction (Atlas track is Nickle/Silver so Magnatraction does not work on their track).

There are loads of sites where people have used O outdoors... I'm not home so I can't provide any links... sorry.

[kcndrr]

I know this would not be your standard O layout; it would be very large and permanent on floating ballast, outdoors in the weather.  Sounds like Gargraves and atlas O track.

My current layout is covering an approx 20 x 50 foot area. And this would pretty much be placed on the current right of ways with modifications for the scale. My hope is to place a two track mainline in the current single track right of ways (apprx 10-12 inches. My current layout has 8'-10' diameter curves.

The power system is what I believe my main issue will be;
What power system with how many amps to use? Is O scale DCC, DC or AC powered?
How do you transmitter controls to the locos, sound, bells, whistles, and accessories?
Is it practical to use electric remote operated turnouts or would that be too problematic?
I currently have 25 turnouts and all are air operated, staying away from the electric power issues.
Hw many amps to power an average O scale loco?
how many cars will an average O scale loco pull (keep in mind I really like the steam era).

I know this is not prototypical, but it is something I like the looks of, there are so many choices in O scale and there are so many accessories available.
Now this may work or may not, but I wish to know more about it and if it might be able to happen.

My current railway is http://www.kcndrr.com/

The locos will be stored indoors and the rolling stock will be stored outdoors in weather resistant storage.  

KC

[dougdagrump]

KC,

"O" 3rail is AC powered 2rail is DC powered, both can be operated equally as well in the great outdoors. One of the things that you mention are the accessories, the Atlas buildings would be fine but the 3rail operating accessories & turnouts would be a major problem as they are not designed for outdoor use. The turnouts can be modified to work but I have no idea as to the cost of converting to pneumatic, or weathertite AC or DC motors and controls.

I have one of the Lionel Lionmaster Challenger, kinda semi-scale for 031 curves, and it will pull 25 to 30 woodside reefers with no problem.

Almost forgot, KC if you make it down to Sandy Eggo let me know. I'll give you a tour of the museum and you can take a good look at the power/control system in use. Click on the link at the bottom of the post.

[lionelsoni]

The guy whose name Doug couldn't remember is David Vergun, who posts as "FJ and G".  He disassembles O27 track and re-lays two rails of it on wooden ties.  He adapts his locomotives with batteries and airplane-type radio control.  Since he's not getting power through the track, he just lets the rails rust.  I haven't seen a post from him in a while either.

[dougdagrump]

The guy whose name Doug couldn't remember is David Vergun, who posts as "FJ and G".  He disassembles O27 track and re-lays two rails of it on wooden ties.  He adapts his locomotives with batteries and airplane-type radio control.  Since he's not getting power through the track, he just lets the rails rust.  I haven't seen a post from him in a while either.

Thanks Bob, old age must be creeping up on me.

[kpolak]

The Woodshire Railroad is a great example.

http://web.mac.com/hankb/wrr/Home.html

Kurt

[Pappy]

Here's a good website:
http://www.btcomm.com/trains/primer/o_gauge_outside/o_gauge_outside.htm

I would think there is no reason not to use O gauge, 2 or 3 rail, outside. You just have to use the same precautions that you used with the G gauge. I know not to use track with wooden ties, plastic only. The wood ties break down too fast.

And another link.
http://www.trainweb.org/oscaleoutdoors/links.html

[kcndrr]

Another question on O scale

Looking at design software to plan the outdoor railroad
which software is suggested for PC design?
Also, since the layout is going outside, is there size limits to the design, my outdoor layout would be approx 24 x 50 feet in overall size for design.\

Looks like track will be Gargraves and Atlas 3 rail with TMCC control.

Wondering because would like to estimate overall track needed to do what I want, which could also influence the overall design 

KC

[dougdagrump]

Lots of people use RRTrax software, not sure what the learning curve for use is like.

[kcndrr]

Another question;
is there a difference between O27 rolling stock and track and O scale rolling stock and track.
Was informed by someone stating that 027 and O are different and O will not run on O27 but O27 will run on O. something to do with wheel flange depth.

Also I cannot seem to find a TMCC power supply anywhere online, are they available or special order?

KC

[dougdagrump]

Another question;
is there a difference between O27 rolling stock and track and O scale rolling stock and track.

KC, The gauge of the two tracks is the same, the difference being the height of the rails(bottom of flange to top of rail) , the tubular size is a bit larger for "O" than "027" and the ties are higher in "O" than "027". Normally "027" rolling stock, also referred to as entry level, are compressed in all dimensions, LxWxH, "semi-scale" mite have one or two dimensions a little compressed, and "scale" has all dimensions accrate. 
Was informed by someone stating that 027 and O are different and O will not run on O27 but O27 will run on O. something to do with wheel flange depth.

That statemant is only partly true, "O" scale will run on 027 track. The problem occurs with most of the locos and cars requiring larger size curves which are available in 027 track. Not sure of how it became labeled as 027, probably due to it's original diameter but it is currently available in fairly wide radius curves so it should not be a problem. Oops, just remembered that sometimes the switch lanterns do cause a few interference issues.

However as it relates to most tubular track they will not work oudoors , except maybe gargraves, due to rusting. Other brands of tubular may work if you do not rely on track power, but they will eventually rust out.

Also I cannot seem to find a TMCC power supply anywhere online, are they available or special order?

If you are planning on going the TMCC route one source of power would be, depending on power requirements, one or two 180W bricks, a TMCC command base and a cab-1. If you plan on running some conventional as well you could add a TPC400, this would enable you to operate conventionally with your cab-1.

Check the Lionel site under "Command Control" and it will give you all the parts & part numbers so you can do some price checking for budget analysis. On the club layout sometimes when the DCS is not being co-operative we use the TPC to operate MTH PS2 locos. You get most of the PS2 features but not all.

KC

[lionelsoni]

A distinction that has not been mentioned is that (in the US) there are O "scale" modelers who use a scale of 1/48 but eschew the toy-train gauge of 1 1/4 inches in favor of 1.176, which they call "Proto48":

http://hgdmrs.tripod.com/hgchord1.htm

 

[kcndrr]

Kind of sounds like G scale, lots of different scale on the same track

Need to see more of whets out there, only looking on eBay does not give good idea of actual stock, scale and size.

Thanks for all the useful information

KC

[dougdagrump]

KC,

Check out www.coilcouplers.com , they are an excellent source of info on Lionel"s TMCC. They also provide some great inter-active tutorials, better than Lionels actually, so you can get a bit of a feel for what it can do.