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Outside 3rd rail

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Outside 3rd rail
Posted by fredswain on Friday, August 29, 2008 9:59 AM
Has anyone ever played with the idea of doing an ouside 3rd rail conversion rather than keeping the standard center rail? I was looking at pictures of Frank Ellison's Delta Lines as he used an outside 3rd rail and I thought it looked pretty neat. Was this once a common setup or did this have to be custom built? I've never seen anyone else do it.
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Posted by chuck on Friday, August 29, 2008 10:17 AM
 fredswain wrote:
Has anyone ever played with the idea of doing an ouside 3rd rail conversion rather than keeping the standard center rail? I was looking at pictures of Frank Ellison's Delta Lines as he used an outside 3rd rail and I thought it looked pretty neat. Was this once a common setup or did this have to be custom built? I've never seen anyone else do it.


I don't know how common it was but I do know that the people who chose to go this route had to make up/modify their own track. I've seen a number of photo's from layouts back in the late 1930's to the early 50's where an outside third rail was used for power. The original 700 E had an optional outside rail shoe for use with scale wheels and an outside third rail.

Outside third rails in O scale have many of the problems that 1:1 third rail operations have when you get to complex switches/crossovers. You will notice that the NYC Grand Central operations uses an outside third rail but that all of the electric locomotives also have small pantographs. This was done to accommodate the probable breaks in continuity that would happen when the locomotive had to cross a double slip or some other large complicated switch. There were sections of overhead third rail above these switches/cross overs. Since subways are actually MU'd they have less problems and less need for overhead bridging.
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Posted by Jago on Wednesday, September 3, 2008 3:31 PM
My Local (UK) commuter line is outside 3rd rail originally installed by the old L&Y Rly subsequently the LMS and then BR now Merseyrail. Sliding shoe pickup nothing overhead. Never seen outside 3R modelled but it would certainly be 3R with a difference
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Posted by overall on Wednesday, September 3, 2008 3:42 PM

CTT had an article on such a layout not too long ago, within the last year or so. You might check into it.I think it would be a huge amount of work to convert to an outside third rail. It would also seem to be trouble prone.

George

 

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Posted by rtraincollector on Wednesday, September 3, 2008 4:37 PM
I've seen outside thrid rail engines come up on ebay . Its rare but have seen 2 or 3 in the past 4 or 5 years. Seems there always a steamer so I'm thinking lionel or some company did try it for a short period.

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Posted by chuck on Wednesday, September 3, 2008 7:57 PM
Lionel offered the 700 as a kit (700K) and it included support for center rail or outside rail pickup.  The "kit" was actually several kits that when combined built up to a complete operating locomotive.
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Posted by cnw1995 on Thursday, September 4, 2008 1:41 PM
Like Jago's commuter line, the Chicago Transit Authority 'El' also has a third rail.

CTT's sister publication Model Railroader has some great articles highlighting what might be the most 'recent' layouts in our scale using out-side third rail power - John Armstrong's Canadaigua (sp) Southern. 

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Posted by jefelectric on Thursday, September 4, 2008 9:23 PM
Outside third rail was used by O Scale modelers back in the 30s to 50s.  It is not a substitute for inside third rail.  The reason most of the locos were steamers is that back when it was popular, there were very few diesels.  I guess you could do it, but I have to ask, why would you want to?
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Posted by fredswain on Thursday, September 4, 2008 11:47 PM

Why would I want to? For the same reason that I'm building a desktop steam engine out of copper and brass plumbing parts. Because I can!

Actually I wasn't planning on doing it. I was just asking although the idea is appealing only because no one else wants to do it. That in itself is usually reason enough for me. The irony of no one wanting to do it and having many people question it lies in the fact that if someone did do it today, those same people who questioned it would probably think it was actually pretty neat.

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Posted by Jago on Friday, September 5, 2008 7:31 AM
I hope you do go ahead and follow this through, its always an inspiration to see people think outside the box and bring a project to fruition.
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Posted by lynbrookyankee on Friday, September 5, 2008 7:48 AM
Some years back I went to a train club open house in Brooklyn and their o guage layout was done with outside 3rd rail. While the track looked more realistic without the center rail, I thought the outside pick up shoe on engine took away from the look (maybe because I am used to the traditional 3 rail set up). They also had trolley with overhead line - seemed like trolley was always coming off & needed to be reset.
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Posted by fredswain on Friday, September 5, 2008 9:22 AM
It is kind of ironic to have 3 rail people worry about realism in regards to an outside rail. IF I ever did this or even attempted to, it wouldn't be on a large garage sized layout. It would be on a 3' X 6-1/2' hollow core door. I'm already laying my own track and building my own switches based on O-27 rail. Why not just go one step farther?
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Posted by phillyreading on Friday, September 5, 2008 9:39 AM

 Jago wrote:
My Local (UK) commuter line is outside 3rd rail originally installed by the old L&Y Rly subsequently the LMS and then BR now Merseyrail. Sliding shoe pickup nothing overhead. Never seen outside 3R modelled but it would certainly be 3R with a difference

Even the Reading railroad used the outside third rail for several miles of track, I remember seeing some tracks near Bellevue Road and route 61 on the north side of Reading PA. Conrail took over most of the Reading tracks and did away with the outside third rail.

Lee F.

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Posted by fredswain on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 1:19 AM
I've found the NMRA standards for outside rail track if anyone is interested in seeing how to do it. I gather that no one really is but I'm just throwing it out there.
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Posted by chuck on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:43 AM

 fredswain wrote:
I've found the NMRA standards for outside rail track if anyone is interested in seeing how to do it. I gather that no one really is but I'm just throwing it out there.

OK, throw it a little farther so we can see itSmile [:)]

Thanks!

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Posted by ogauge on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:01 PM
When I look at old pictures of outside third rail layouts, I think they look more realistic than current highrail layouts with gargraves for example.  In my eye, the outer third rail is usually in line with the edge of the ties and so doesn't distract the eyes as does the center rail.  Its just my opinion, others will vary!
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Posted by fredswain on Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:24 AM
I'll get the outside rail NMRA standards scanned when I can. I've got a hurricane barreling down on me right now so I'm trying to get stuff moved and secured.
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Posted by Mr Ron on Saturday, July 24, 2010 5:29 PM

I believe the small overhead pantograph was there for use in tunnels only, using 3rd rail when running in the open. Pennsy/LIRR did the same in tunnels under the East river

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Posted by DMUinCT on Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:13 AM

   In the real world, "Outside Third Rail" DC power was the system of choice for America's subways. It was also was used in 1900 for "Heavy Rail" access to New York City, to Penn Station and to Grand Central Terminal.  It is sill used today to Grand Central, Penn Station has had "Overhead AC Catenary" added.   In the old days, a steam locomotive might very well be moving in "Third Rail" territory outside the city, just look out when you swing down from the cab.

  It was in 1896 that the "New York New Haven and Hartford" went to "Center Third Rail" on a Boston branch line extending some 11 1/2 miles.   Next to get "Center Third Rail" was the branch lines radiating out of Hartford CT. A total of 32 route miles.  The 3 rail commuter power cars looked more like "Intererbans" pulling trailing non-powered cars.

  A young J. Lionel Cowen must have felt that "Center Third Rail" was the system of the future. It does live on in "O Gauge".

He was wrong, the State of Connecticut, in 1905, required the "Center Third Rail" track be fenced or removed and steam powered trains returned to the commuter lines.  The New Haven had already turned to a High Voltage AC Catenary system for the New York to Stamford section of their Main Line. (later extended to New Haven and now to Boston)

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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, July 25, 2010 7:52 PM

Center third rail is prototypical in Bordeaux:  http://citytransport.info/Bod.htm

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Posted by rtraincollector on Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:00 PM

lionelsoni

Center third rail is prototypical in Bordeaux:  http://citytransport.info/Bod.htm

cool proves there are 3 rail lines out there so we are proto correct Big Smile

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Posted by fredswain on Monday, July 26, 2010 12:30 AM
It is interesting to see this thread revived. When I first started it nearly 2 years ago it was after seeing pictures of Frank Ellison's Delta Lines and I was curious about trying it. Today I am the moderator for the Friends of the Delta Lines Yahoo group and own a few outside 3rd rail engines. I bought the remnants of an OTR layout that was built in the 30's and the engines were from a different layout from the late 40's. I am hand laying the track using old code 172 rail. I have also bought a couple of dozen old Athern outside 3rd rail pickups for use in conversions. It's funny how things have changed in that time.
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Posted by challenger3980 on Monday, July 26, 2010 12:54 AM

Fred,

  Please don't take this wrong, what are the Advantages to outside third rail? It seems like a LOT of extra work in track laying, maintanence, conversions, etc. without any benefit that I can understand.

Doug

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Posted by fredswain on Monday, July 26, 2010 9:28 AM

The benefit is that it interests me. From a practicality standpoint it isn't as easy to do as conventional 3 rail or even 2 rail anymore as no one offers anything for it any longer. However I have always had a fascination with it so I decided to go that route for a small switching layout. It wasn't about practicality but rather just something I wanted to try. There is still a use for it if someone really wants to pursue subway type of modeling that uses it.

However, to me having an outside 3rd rail is less visually offensive (don't take that term wrong) than having one on the inside. I am using old techniques with a pretty large outside rail that was a standard in the 30's and 40's so it does stand out. I am combining it with newer modeling techniques and standards though so mine is a sort of fusion of old and new even though I could use all modern techniques and make it look more real than I am. Later on at some point code 100 rail for the outside became the standard. The NMRA track gauge today actually still has the outside rail location on it. With a code 100 outside rail blackened, it is hardly noticable at all and if you really go to the trouble of having some detailed trackwork (mine is all hand laid), your attention is diverted away from it.

The nice thing about having an outside pickup shoe is that all rails, frogs, etc are all negative polarity. You don't need to worry about a pickup roller crossing over a rail and shorting out. However you do potentially have gaps in the outside rail at switches. There are ways around this where you don't need to though. You always have gaps at grade crossings or other track crossings though but if done properly it isn't a problem. For certain things, the outside rail can be completely disguised such as at loading docks. If done well you can integrate the outside rail into the edge of a dock and never see it.

I have a couple of dozen old Athern outside rail pickups that I have acquired and it only requires finding a way to mount them and then running the wire from the pickup roller to it. You do have to take some care though that it doesn't short out against a frame and that you have sufficient clearance. The old engines I have had custom made pickups on them.

Outside rail actually doesn't have to be that difficult to do. Most people assume that you need to use hand laid track but this isn't true. Although the way I am doing it and the old guidelines call for an extended tie every few inches as a support for the outside rail, this isn't necessary and can be buried right in your scenery. Gargraves at one time made outside rail sectional track and probably still could. You could run any 3 rail equipped piece this way. If you wanted a more scale look and had scale wheels then you could run Atlas 2 rail track and then just add an outside rail. Many people used to solder the outside rail to screws that were being used as supports but you can still buy outside rail chairs that allow rail to just slide into them with no soldering. My old chairs that I have salvaged work in such a manner and there is no soldering required.

My other project is stud rail that replaces the center rail with a stud system. It is definitely a currently viable alternative and can look pretty darned real. There is more than one way to do things and I have always liked doing what others don't. I think outside rail could still be viable for some people today but the knowledge of how to do it is nearly gone and many are under the assumption that it is too difficult and time consuming. It is definitely harder to do than use existing track that everything is made to work with but it isn't rocket science and can look quite nice.

Here is a (less than perfect) picture of a couple of my sidings. I am using old code 172 brass rail and an old salvaged brass outside rail so the yellow of those stands out but I could have very well used a different rail in different sizes and hidden them better. These sidings are currently being rebuilt as they now have tie plate detail as well. Scenery is also not yet in place in this picture.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44365983@N08/4605777958/in/photostream/

Here is a picture of one of my engines sitting on it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44365983@N08/4605165331/in/photostream/

Here's another blurry closeup. This is of the back of an old Lobaugh gondola. I took these pictures before I really knew how to use my camera but you get the idea.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44365983@N08/4605778566/

I like outside rail. I am the only person that I know who has it and I'm good with that. 

 

 

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Posted by challenger3980 on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:05 AM

Hi Fred,

  I am 44, and grew up in the pacific North West, so even though prototype third rail is something that I am aware of, I have never seen any in real life. To me, the outside rail is more noticable than center rail, but I sure wont say anything but WOW, about your track laying skills, your track looks GREAT.

 Do your locomotives have power pick up shoes on both sides?, or is the track operated in a directional method?

Thanks,

Doug

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Posted by fredswain on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:27 AM

Thanks. I am actually redoing those sidings right now to extend them a bit. They were originally just display tracks but now are integrated into a small operating layout. I am also adding tie plates which requires pulling up the rails and respiking them. It is tedious but the results look really good. I start with Midwest scale lumber basswood ties. I prefer them to the white pine ties from Fast Tracks or Mt. Albert although the longer ties are white pine. One by one I rough them up with a rasp and then go over them quickly with a smoother file just to get rid of the fuzzy stuff hanging off. Then I stain them with a stain pen one by one. Sometimes I'll soak a few ties in an alcohol/ink wash to get some base color in them before staining. On these I may rough them up before or after they have soaked up a bit of a wash. On other ties I start with a lighter American Oak stain and then go back over it later with Dark Walnut. On most ties I use straight dark walnut. On some of the ink washed ties I'll go back over them with varying stains. It is a lot of work to get inconsistency but to me uniformity doesn't look real. I am also about to rip up the ballast in those pictures and replace it with something finer. If you think this looks good, you should see my stud rail!

After it is all detailed, the outside rail really doesn't stand out that bad. Those pictures were meant to highlight the third rail but if you see it from the side in a complete scenic surrounding, it blends in pretty well. It isn't invisible by any means but some people may not even realize that it is still 3 rail track but may think it is a guardrail. The pickup shoes are actually just a 1 piece pickup that attaches underneath the engine. If I remember, tonight or tomorrow I'll try to get a picture of a couple of different styles. It is very simple and easily adaptable to any engine. Even my Polar Express train that only runs in a circle under the Christmas tree is going to either be converted to stud rail or outside 3rd rail. I just like to be different!

As far as how it operates, it is still 3 rail and works the same. The 3rd rail is just in a different location but nothing electrically changes. That is until you let me get ahold of it! I am running DCC. Since this layout is a small switching layout that only switches cars between 3 sidings and a mainline with only 1 engine, DCC is probably even overkill but I already had it from my n-scale layout. I could have easily used a conventional AC transformer and worked it just like any other 3 rail conventional setup or even used DC and done it the same way. There is nothing special about it. Standard 3 rail, stud rail, and outside 3rd rail are all electrically the exact same thing.

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Posted by challenger3980 on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 7:51 PM

Hi  Again Fred,

  You have definitely EARNED that Great looking track, the HARD way. I will be interested in seeing it when you have the tie plates and finer ballast done. There are those out there that think that I am insane for finding ballasting track at the club RELAXING, they would probably find you permanently certifiable and beyond hope of recovery, after reading your tie preperation method, but it does look Great.

  I guess that I didn't phrase my question on operating outside third rail very well. Do you use pick-up shoes on just one side of the locomotive or both? If say your outside rail is on the North side of the track, and you only have a pick up shoe on the engineer's side(right side) then your locomotive must always be faced West regardless of direction of travel. I know  that many, if not most or all, pure electric prototype locomotives were dual ended, I imagine for this very reason, but what about your model Steam locomotives? Would they always need to be faced West? Is your track directionally oriented, with Westbound outside rail to the North,  and Eastbound outside rails to the South? or do you have shoes on both sides of your locomotives?

Thanks Again, I am curious about your outside rail project, but am Definitely just going to be an interested observer, ain't NO WAY that I am goin thereBig Smile, but then again, if someone had told me in 2003 or 2004, that I would be this involved in 3 Rail O Gauge, I would have LAUGHED at them, Long and Hard, Never say Never.

Doug

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Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 9:15 PM

I have a correction to my description of the 700E-258 outside-third-rail pickup that I described in the other outside-third-rail topic.  It appears that it is not mounted lengthwise as I thought, but transversely, with one pickup shoe on each side of the locomotive.  The shoe protrudes between the drivers and should be very unobtrusive.  This eliminates any problem with which side of the track to put the third rail.  Either side would work; and I suspect that it would be a good idea to use both sides wherever possible.  Since there are two mounting points, you could easily put two complete assemblies on the locomotive, to have two shoes on each side.

It seems that the 701 0-6-0 switcher and the 701T tender also had provision for outside-third-rail pickups (701-26).

Bob Nelson

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Posted by dougdagrump on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:20 PM

If memory serves me correctly the annual Christmas display by Cincinnati Gas & Electric was done in "outside 3rd rail". Not sure if the current display is or not.

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Posted by fredswain on Thursday, July 29, 2010 9:37 AM

I have a couple of 700E outside rail pickups and a 763E chassis which is very similar. I can show you exactly where and how they mount. Those pickups are nice as they are stamped steel that is spring loaded on each side.

The outside rail pickups are one long piece that extends all the way across the engine and protrudes from each side. They are sprung for flexibility so that they stay pushed down against the outside rail. Some are larger than others. From end to end they are 2-1/2" long but could be up to 3" long total. I see no reason to go this wide though. By comparison a standard railroad tie should be 2-1/4" wide. They just attach underneath the engine in any way that the installer sees fit and the power wire attaches to it. It is a very simple device. I didn't have a chance to get a picture of them yet.

It isn't always possible to keep the outside rail on the same side of the tracks depending on where you are without having a very large gap. On my switches is a prime example and in places the same track will have the outside rail change sides. Since the pickups extend out both sides, this isn't an issue nor is it an issue to turn the engine around. It would be very difficult to design a system where the outside rail is only on 1 side and where a pickup shoe is only on one side. That would be very limited to something like a Christmas tree loop where the train only runs in one direction.

The Cincinnati layout still exists and you can find videos of it on youtube if you do a search for Duke Energy train display or some variations wiith Duke Energy in it. That layout was first started in 1938 and has been set up every year since. They have never bothered to change it to 2 rail. The rail code is taller than today's standard size and the ties are still a different size from prototypical. Their outside rail is a bit more tedious to install as they did it like John Armstrong did his. They use screws attached next to the track and they solder the outside rail onto the tops of all fo them. Mine are easy. A track spike goes through the chair (outside rail support) and holds it directly down to a longer tie. The outside rail slides into the slot on top and you crimp it on with pliers. It is very easy with no soldering. The Duke display also runs current modern equipment so someone somewhere is converting modern equipment to outside rail use. The Bay Ridge Model Railroad club in Brooklyn still has an outside rail layout. As far as I know these are the last 2 big ones left with the Duke Energy one being the worlds largest portable O scale layout and only setup for a month a year. There are probably a few small outside rail layouts around but most probably done by traction/subway modelers. It's too bad. It really is a neat thing to see.

One thing about my track to know is that I could have made it far more realistic than I am. I have tried to blend some old and new materials and techniques together but have not tried to make it completely modern. It would be 2 rail if that was the goal. I could have used a smaller rail code and a much smaller outside rail and hidden it much better but I wanted to use old materials instead as I wanted to do it the way it used to be done even if that means a little visual offense.

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