Bob Keller
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Yep...it's just turned into another "I hate MTH and love Lionel" thread. Not a big surprise. People are gonna believe what they want and nothing is going to change their minds. I swear if MTH gave away free locos and free everything, someone somewhere would gripe about the color of the boxes they come in
I'm just glad MTH and the others are there to keep the competition going.
Virginian Railroad
dougdagrump wrote: Get a grip guys !They are only toys.
Get a grip guys !
They are only toys.
I AGREE. THIS HORSE HAS LONG SINCE BEEN BEATEN TO DEATH.
JACK
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Pass the Purple KoolAid !
It's starting to sound like another forum here.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
www.sd3r.org
Proud New Member Of The NRA
And again....MTH WINS the suit.
Not exactly.
The suit is still open but inactive. Take a look at the ads for the QSI 3000 system that was announced prior to the announcement of PS-2. QSI was awarded a patent for the doppler shift affect. Not a patent pending, an actual patent. The feature list for the 3000 reads eriely like what would eventually be touted as features for PS-2.
Why should I believe QSI's version over MTH's?
You are free to believe whatever you like. You are free to edit information to suit your version of reality. There are those who base their oppinions on facts and those whose "facts" are based on oppinions.
chuck wrote: MTH had a disagreement with QSI and the two parted ways.I guess that's one way to put it.http://web.archive.org/web/20021209172159/qsindustries.com/MTHQSILawsuit+(1F3).htm
MTH had a disagreement with QSI and the two parted ways.
I guess that's one way to put it.
http://web.archive.org/web/20021209172159/qsindustries.com/MTHQSILawsuit+(1F3).htm
It takes two to make a lawsuit. Why should I believe QSI's version over MTH's? And again....MTH WINS the suit.
BTW....MTH did not design the Proto 1 sound board. QSI designed it.
The boards were designed/engineered by QSI to MTH's specifications. The boards were also manufactured by a third party. A number of issues re the PS-1 system were brought to MTH's attention by QSI and they(MTH) always elected to stick with the original design. This was a regular topic on the old QSI bulletin board system. The principals of QSI would participate in the bbs and there are still charts outlining the differences between the various versions of QSI's products and upgrade paths that were available to customers not completely satisfied with how PS-1 worked. I don't know if any of these discussions are still up in the archiv.org site or not.
SPFan wrote: Deputy wrote:SPFan: LOL...yeah, everyone wanted a free Proto 2 upgrade after they found out Proto 2 came out. That would have sent MTH straight into bankruptcy real quick. I never saw Lionel issue free locos when theirs had problems. Never saw any free postwar FM Trainmaster shells being given away after the mounting screws cracked the shells. So you don't want me to peek over at Lionel and other company's problems, but only bash MTH. Sorry....but that ain't gonna happen. MTH doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is in open competition with Lionel and other makers, whether you like it or not. You might want to check your reading comprehension. I didn't say don't bring up issues with Lionel or anyone else on the forum. Just not on this thread. I'll be happy to throw in my two cents as well since I don't have any favorites and have owned and repaired products from all manufacturers.As for the Proto 1 fiasco, consider if a car manufacturer designed an engine that died when the battery failed and the only fix was to replace the motor at the owners expense. "Oh, we have a better one now and it will only cost you $2,000. Can't install it yourself? Well we have service centers that will do it for another $1,000." How long would that car company stay in business? We may be finding out right now.Pete
Deputy wrote:SPFan: LOL...yeah, everyone wanted a free Proto 2 upgrade after they found out Proto 2 came out. That would have sent MTH straight into bankruptcy real quick. I never saw Lionel issue free locos when theirs had problems. Never saw any free postwar FM Trainmaster shells being given away after the mounting screws cracked the shells. So you don't want me to peek over at Lionel and other company's problems, but only bash MTH. Sorry....but that ain't gonna happen. MTH doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is in open competition with Lionel and other makers, whether you like it or not.
You might want to read all of the thread before criticizing my reading skills. Just about everyone who posted in this thread mentioned or compared Lionel to MTH. So you are gonna have to go after a whole lot of people besides me.
If a car manufacturer made a defective engine, would he give you a new free car? I don't think so. And MTH has a very inexpensive fix for the Proto 1 locos that can easily be installed by the most unskilled toy train owner. BTW....charging the battery prior to use completely prevents any issues from occuring. And another BTW....MTH did not design the Proto 1 sound board. QSI designed it. Proto 2 was designed by MTH. MTH had a disagreement with QSI and the two parted ways.
This whole "Proto 1 fiasco" has been blown way out of proportion by the anti-MTH folks. MTH came out with a repair kit for $25 that would repair ANY Proto 1 loco that had chip problems. The kit is useable over and over if you own more than one Proto 1 loco. Giving away a free new locomotive was simply not logical or practical.
This whole Proto 1 discussion has been beat to death on every toy train forum. Here's a link to a good discussion back in 2007:http://cs.trains.com/forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1074868
Again....if anyone has a Proto 1 loco that they absolutely hate and want to get rid of, I will gladly take it off your hands.
And the part number and descritpion for the MTH reset kit for Proto 1 locos is 50-1023 Proto-Sound Reset Kit Fixes Proto1 with 3 Clanks at Startup Dep
The issues with MTH far exceed the O gauge arena and go well beyond problems with Lionel. There are a large number of people involved in HO/N/G who are less than fans of MTH because of behavior associated with DCS.
I suppose there are a few people who actually hate MTH. Most of it is friendly ribbing from each camp I suspect. Lionel or the big L as it is known in some circles has always been the 800 pound gorilla in toy trains. They have a rich history and a good reputation for the most part for quality and collectable trains. I can't speak for their modern trains because I only own a couple of them. I was dissapointed with them during the MPC era but at least that period kept the company alive until better trains came along.
I have always liked the scale look though so MTH appealed to me before Lionel got serious about making scale looking trains. In the mean time I got involved with DCS and I like it very much. I did'nt want to start all over again so I have stuck with MTH. I know there are ways you can run TMCC and DCS with the same handheld using the MTH system but not the other way around using the Lionel system. I tried it but did not have good results. I suspect there are other issues about my layout that need fixing before I can do this.
In this electronic age there is always a horror story now and then from either camp. Whatever your favorite system is, go for it and have a good time. Ray
SPMan
Sir james 1: No idea which tender you are talking about. None of mine are warped and I have quite a few MTH steam locos.
SPFan: LOL...yeah, everyone wanted a free Proto 2 upgrade after they found out Proto 2 came out. That would have sent MTH straight into bankruptcy real quick. I never saw Lionel issue free locos when theirs had problems. Never saw any free postwar FM Trainmaster shells being given away after the mounting screws cracked the shells. So you don't want me to peek over at Lionel and other company's problems, but only bash MTH. Sorry....but that ain't gonna happen. MTH doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is in open competition with Lionel and other makers, whether you like it or not. The bottom line is the free market and consumer choice are going to decide whether MTH is successful or not. So far they look like they are doing pretty good. I don't see MTH jumping in and out of bankruptcy.
trestrainfan: I hope I don't get banned for answering the first question:
#1 My "library" of catalogs and magazines is located in the "throne room". If you can't figure out what that means, PM me and I'll get more graphic. At the time I am looking at a magazine there is NO WAY I can get up and walk over to my computer.
#2 The point is I DON'T have to go through all that internet and catalog searching with MTH. I can just look immediately for 20- and KNOW it's to scale (with the exception of Chuck's observances).
#3. I don't know what magazines you look at, but OGR has ads that go all the way back to wind-up trains.
You Lionel folks may enjoy doing all this research trying to figure out if a piece is scale or not. Somehow I doubt it's an issue for many Lionel buyers because I don't think a lot of them or as many of them buy scale as much as MTH people do.Me, I'd rather just look at the MTH 20- prefix and then buy or not buy the dang thing. I'm too old and too fat to jump through hoops.
#4 Since I moved to NM two years ago my train store days are pretty much over. There are none. So I use the internet for buying. Again...a lot easier to look for the 20- code than to keep digging through catalogs and websites. And the good news is most everything that Lionel MAY have made in scale, has been released in scale by MTH. All this big anticipation and hand-wringing about when the "Big Boy" is going to be released by Lionel makes MTH fans chuckle. MTH released the scale Big Boy over over 10 years ago!!!Dep
I'm a huge fan of MTH. I personally never had problems with calling them for info or anything else for that matter. I never really dealt with Lionel because I don't own any. For the longest time I didn't play with trains because everything (to me) that Lionel put out looked liked a toy more than an actual train.
The first train I bought that made me want to get back into trains was the Premier BigBoy from MTH. It just blew me away when I ran it along with DCS at the hobby shop I work at partime. I tried both DCS and TMCC and to me DCS was just alot better than the TMCC because you don't have to remember what certain buttons do. And the fact that DCS can be upgraded for free via the net was a great selling point for me. When MTH started bringing out more scale trains I think it pushed Lionel to do the same thins and we as the hobbiests benfitted from this in getting some great trains.
As for the lawsuit, if you came up with a great idea and someone stole it you would be upset too. Was the forty million fair. I can't say, but it would be interesting to know what the agreement betwen MTH and Lionel is. I think what Neil Young did with TMCC to get all of this sarted was really good for the hobby and started a whole new way to play with your trains. And a great idea brings even greater ideas which is what we see today in the hobby.
Legacey personally does nothing for me, it just doesn't impress me. So I will stick with my DCS. But I will say this some of the new Lionel Legacy Engines look really good and I just might consider purchasing one. To me the BigBoy looks nice but I just don't think it sounds right. Thats my opion.
One thing that bothers me about Lionel is Jerry Calabrese . Sorry if I didn't spell his name right. I wasn't impresed with his interview in OGR. I didn't like what he said at the end of it about a hobbiest would only build what they want. This coming from a guy who was hired to help bail out Lionel who probably never played with a train in his life.
So in my conclusion of all of this, I'm still a huge MTH fan but a little competition only helps the consumer in having great items to pick from. And you are always going to have brand loyal people out there who no matter how good the other guys product is its still junk. So I say buy what you like don't let anyone else's opion make your decision to buy or not to buy something. One more thing everyone is going to have different expereinces with any company you deal with but just because one person had a bad experience dosen't mean you will have that same experience.
JUST HAVE FUN PLAYING WITH YOUR TRAINS AND ENJOY HOW MANY GREAT THINGS HAVE OUT IN THE RECENT YEARS.
Ralph
Deputy wrote: trestrainfan wrote: Deputy wrote: My only real beef with Lionel is a rather minor one...I still haven't figured out the secret code that indentifies scale trains from non-scale. I know about the "PS-" thing. But what about locos?? A shame they don't use the KISS principle that MTH uses and use a simple prefix in the number system to identify everything.BTW...I do own some postwar Lionel in the form of S-2 turbines. Dep Just look in the catalog. There are categories for traditional O and standard O. Lionel has catalogs back through 2000 on their website.Easier said than done...#1 If I am looking in a toy train magazine I normally don't sit at the computer. #2 I have no way of knowing what year a product might be from looking at the number, so I'd have to search through multiple catalogs released twice a year to try and find the item. #3 The catalogs only go back to 2000. Scale pieces were also built before 2000.#4 I normally don't lug a computer along when I am at a train store. No thanks. I can flip open a train magazine and in any MTH ad I can immediately spot the scale items by the 20- prefix. Ditto for being in a train store. Just look at the numbers on the box. Can't get any easier than that. No catalogs, computers, or flipping of pages necessary. Dep
trestrainfan wrote: Deputy wrote: My only real beef with Lionel is a rather minor one...I still haven't figured out the secret code that indentifies scale trains from non-scale. I know about the "PS-" thing. But what about locos?? A shame they don't use the KISS principle that MTH uses and use a simple prefix in the number system to identify everything.BTW...I do own some postwar Lionel in the form of S-2 turbines. Dep Just look in the catalog. There are categories for traditional O and standard O. Lionel has catalogs back through 2000 on their website.
Deputy wrote: My only real beef with Lionel is a rather minor one...I still haven't figured out the secret code that indentifies scale trains from non-scale. I know about the "PS-" thing. But what about locos?? A shame they don't use the KISS principle that MTH uses and use a simple prefix in the number system to identify everything.BTW...I do own some postwar Lionel in the form of S-2 turbines. Dep
Just look in the catalog. There are categories for traditional O and standard O. Lionel has catalogs back through 2000 on their website.
Dep
I concede the MTH system is easier (although I didn't know 20 represented scale, I don't have MTH other than a few Christmas cars. ;) ). The point I was trying to make is that it isn't very difficult to find out information about Lionel equipment.
#1 If I am looking in a toy train magazine I normally don't sit at the computer.
If you are interested in buying something, how difficult is it to walk over to look at your computer? You don't seem to have a problem sitting at your computer and posting. ;)
#2 I have no way of knowing what year a product might be from looking at the number, so I'd have to search through multiple catalogs released twice a year to try and find the item.
Use the product finder on the lionel website. Type in the product code. It gives you info about the equipment, such as standard or traditional, and lists the catalog where you can find more information. Grante, it only goes back to 2000.
#3 The catalogs only go back to 2000. Scale pieces were also built before 2000.
If you are looking at a magazine, it is not very likely you are going to see equipment listed that was made before 2000. If you are in a train store, ask one of the employees if it is standard or traditional.
#4 I normally don't lug a computer along when I am at a train store.
Again, ask one of the employees if it is standard or traditional. Most of them don't bite.
THe MTH system is easier to readily identify if an item is scale. But, you really don't have to be very resourceful to find out similar information about Lionel trains.
Deputy wrote: SPFan wrote:Before the lawsuits, Mike angered a lot of customers by not standing behind the Proto 1 systems when they failed due to dead batteries. Very poor design that should have been rectified. PeteActually, it was "rectified" with Proto 2. And if anyone has a scale Proto 1 loco that isn't working, I'll gladly take it off their hands. MTH makes a neat little kit to fix the problem, and with a battery replacement device, it becomes 100% reliable. Of course, Lionel would never make a poor design and not stand behind it. Wait...I seem to remember a certain Lionel transformer that people had recently posted hundreds of complaints about...
SPFan wrote:Before the lawsuits, Mike angered a lot of customers by not standing behind the Proto 1 systems when they failed due to dead batteries. Very poor design that should have been rectified. Pete
Actually, it was "rectified" with Proto 2. And if anyone has a scale Proto 1 loco that isn't working, I'll gladly take it off their hands. MTH makes a neat little kit to fix the problem, and with a battery replacement device, it becomes 100% reliable. Of course, Lionel would never make a poor design and not stand behind it. Wait...I seem to remember a certain Lionel transformer that people had recently posted hundreds of complaints about...
lionroar88 wrote:As for the hatred.Mife Wolf - the founder and owner of MTH trains (Mike's Train House) got his start in model railroading by working for Williams Trains I believe. Williams got their start by selling knockoffs of Lionel's venerable PostWar engines. He was selling Williams trains out of his house and was one of, if not, the largest Williams dealers.
Go over to thde OGR forum and more like MTH than Lionel. SOmewhat different audiances.
I am a Lionel guy, always have been, but I'm getting tired of all the back-and-forth between the manufacturers. There is precious little I want from any of them anymore, to be frank. I find myself displaying and running my postwar Lionel stuff more and more. And as for all the new tech gadgets, the more whiz-bang features they put in the trains the more there is to go wrong, IMO. No command control for me.
As for Mike Wolf, he reminds me a lot of Joshua Lionel Cowen. Mr. Cowen was no sweetie pie when it came to the competition, either! Self-made men typically are hard-driven and uncompromising. If they weren't, they wouldn't have become successful "self-made men," would they?
rtraincollector wrote:Personally I felt the same about MTH. It still seems to me that MTH is trying to get that to run there equipment you will have to have there system and for me that I think will hurt them in the long run as it will come to you either have to have 2 systems and seperate lines or be able to run one type in conventional. I maybe wrong here but to me from listening to different ones on line here a few have both but most have TMCC or legacey not mth dc system. Its coming to a point that something is going to have to give to where lionel and mth is going to have to work together on this for one system with both giving some info up to make a single great system for all and I hope not but it may come to where lionel may have an upper hand in this as they probally ahve more systems out there than mth now don't get me wrong I'm sure there are a whole lot of mth out there also or they wouldn't be still making more and improvements to iit. I just hope someday the 2 can get along to where we can have one system to run both type with all the functions of both systems.
I had to buy Lionel TMCC equipment to allow me to use Lionel TMCC locos on my MTH DCS system. So Lionel still makes money on their TMCC stuff if an MTH owner wants to use Lionel's locos. And I was under the impression the new Lionel Legacy control system was not going to be useable by the MTH DCS system. So the fact is everyone who wants to run both will have to buy both complete systems. I prefer DCS because it uses a more accurate control of the speed of the train. Right now, neither Lionel system will control MTH stuff. But MTH will control the old TMCC. So technically, some folks may end up with three systems purchased before this mess is over. As for MTH and Lionel coming to a compromise...don't hold your breath.
Pennsylvania Station wrote: phillyreading wrote: Just for the record, Lionel helped put K-Line out of business by suing them a few years ago.Lee F.I suggest you get your facts straight by reading the following article:Lawsuit derails Hillsborough model train maker Lionel claims in its lawsuit that K-Line paid a Lionel employee to provide it with trade secrets developed by Lionel.The suit alleges that K-Line subsequently used those trade secrets in designing its own products, which were cheaper than the Lionel products because K-Line hadn't incurred the same level of development expenses. The technology in question is used to control the speed of the trains, to produce sound effects and to provide a power source for model systems. K-Line and Lionel nearly resolved the trade secrets lawsuit in mid-August, with Lionel issuing a press release announcing the two sides had reached a settlement. But a subsequent spat over the wording of K-Line's release derailed the settlement, and Lionel decided to continue with its litigation. On Aug. 22, the court administering Lionel's bankruptcy issued a temporary restraining order prohibiting K-Line from manufacturing or selling any K-Line products that contain Lionel technology. K-Line filed for bankruptcy the next day.
phillyreading wrote: Just for the record, Lionel helped put K-Line out of business by suing them a few years ago.Lee F.
Just for the record, Lionel helped put K-Line out of business by suing them a few years ago.
Lee F.
I suggest you get your facts straight by reading the following article:
Lawsuit derails Hillsborough model train maker
Lionel claims in its lawsuit that K-Line paid a Lionel employee to provide it with trade secrets developed by Lionel.The suit alleges that K-Line subsequently used those trade secrets in designing its own products, which were cheaper than the Lionel products because K-Line hadn't incurred the same level of development expenses. The technology in question is used to control the speed of the trains, to produce sound effects and to provide a power source for model systems. K-Line and Lionel nearly resolved the trade secrets lawsuit in mid-August, with Lionel issuing a press release announcing the two sides had reached a settlement. But a subsequent spat over the wording of K-Line's release derailed the settlement, and Lionel decided to continue with its litigation. On Aug. 22, the court administering Lionel's bankruptcy issued a temporary restraining order prohibiting K-Line from manufacturing or selling any K-Line products that contain Lionel technology. K-Line filed for bankruptcy the next day.
The suit alleges that K-Line subsequently used those trade secrets in designing its own products, which were cheaper than the Lionel products because K-Line hadn't incurred the same level of development expenses.
The technology in question is used to control the speed of the trains, to produce sound effects and to provide a power source for model systems.
K-Line and Lionel nearly resolved the trade secrets lawsuit in mid-August, with Lionel issuing a press release announcing the two sides had reached a settlement. But a subsequent spat over the wording of K-Line's release derailed the settlement, and Lionel decided to continue with its litigation.
On Aug. 22, the court administering Lionel's bankruptcy issued a temporary restraining order prohibiting K-Line from manufacturing or selling any K-Line products that contain Lionel technology. K-Line filed for bankruptcy the next day.
Personally I felt the same about MTH. It still seems to me that MTH is trying to get that to run there equipment you will have to have there system and for me that I think will hurt them in the long run as it will come to you either have to have 2 systems and seperate lines or be able to run one type in conventional. I maybe wrong here but to me from listening to different ones on line here a few have both but most have TMCC or legacey not mth dc system. Its coming to a point that something is going to have to give to where lionel and mth is going to have to work together on this for one system with both giving some info up to make a single great system for all and I hope not but it may come to where lionel may have an upper hand in this as they probally ahve more systems out there than mth now don't get me wrong I'm sure there are a whole lot of mth out there also or they wouldn't be still making more and improvements to iit. I just hope someday the 2 can get along to where we can have one system to run both type with all the functions of both systems.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
Chief,
I have had some couplers that popped open and it was very annoying. I wish that I had known about using a rubber band to keep them closed before I reached for the super glue. I like their products and customer service, but QC definitely needs improvement. Last fall, I was running the chrome Sante Fe set when a wheel on the observation car backed off of the splines on the axle. This was due to the fact that there are removable skirts on the bottom of the car. These skirts limit the travel of the truck on 031 curves that it was advertised to run on, which forced the wheel off of the splines. Had to replace entire truck and remove the skirts. Shouldn't happen on a $500+ set.
Deputy wrote:Thanks Chuck. So it kinda "depends" on what piece of rolling stock we are talking about. While the cabooses are pretty close in size (Lionel non-scale cabooses are noticeably smaller than scale), the detail level on scale MTH cabooses is a bit higher. I am always looking for Proto 1 locos to pick up on a good deal.
I will say, I bought several NS Railking cabooses little over two years ago. Scale in size and so much detail, I would have thought Premier. They almost equaled Atlas in details. Now their couplers will stay closed as they are at the end of the train. Anyone who has not experienced MTH couplers poping open must have short or very light weight trains.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month