Fred, that's certainly a loaded question. The well-documented lawsuit (which you could go back and research on the train forums) certainly polarized people, and certainly didn't not help the image of the hobby especially to outsiders. I think hatred is a strong word... it's really a matter of choice.
Dealers are a different ballpark than the consumer, and there are a number of variables that affect a dealer's decision including: product availability and allocation, pre-order amounts (both quantity and dollar amount), wholesale availability, product backup and service/repair arrangements, return policies, product updates - and the list goes on. For every dealer who feels like he got some kind of raw deal from MTH, there's another who could say he got a raw deal from Lionel, or Williams or others.
Blowout pricing certainly annoys small dealers. They pre-order products at normal pricing to be sold at normal pricing and then all of a sudden a select few large mailorder dealers are selling the same product at a discount price to consumers that beats the small dealer's wholesale price. Which means that item either sits on the dealer's shelf until the blowouts are gone (which can take months) or the dealer sells his items at a loss. That's one small example, and Lionel and Williams have been guilty of that too.
From a consumer viewpoint, I think there are some real diehard MTH fans out there.... you see that in the train magazines. MTH has aimed their product line more towards the scale end, and they do have variety (espeically of locomotives) that is unmatched in 3-rail trains.
For me personally, they make very few undersized 027 or traditionally sized trains outside of their Rugged Rails line, which lags behind other companies. From the very beginning, MTH made known their intentions they were not making undersized, smaller trains and their advertising made good point of this in comparison ads with Lionel products.
BUT some of us like those smaller products. And some of us DO NOT like the additional electronics in our trains. Now MTH does make some smaller products: some of the Railking Rolling stock items like tank cars and flat cars are very close to the Lionel conterparts. And the Rugged Rails cars are even better in this department. I have a few Rugged Rails cars and do like them, and would have happily bought more. But MTH has put little effort into this product line with scant few new products whereas companies have done otherwise.
So for me, it's not hatred at all. It's simply a matter that MTH chooses to make product I am not interested in. Others like RMT, Lionel, and K-Line made smaller-than-full-scale products I liked. Some of the older Railking locos were very nice and I liked the modern styles and paint schemes... BUT I WILL NOT buy any loco with added electronics that I will only rip out and throw away. When they make those same locos without the added electronics, and price them accordingly, my story may change... may I say because I already have plenty of trains and very few of them are MTH.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Lionel is the venerable O gauge name and many folks blame the MTH lawsuit for their bankruptcy. Personally, I have some of both - I just buy what appeals to me.
Enjoy
Paul
n1vets333 wrote: I know some have said that MTH is responsible for al the lawsuits in the hobby but I also think if it weren't for them the other companies like Lionel wouldn't feel the heat of competeition and find improvement of their products as important as it is right now. With the MTH products continuously running and looking better it forces the other companies to keep improving thier products to stay up to par. If you ask me, they have only been a godaddiion to the hoby. I f on love their products, I recently bought one of their premier f7 units and plan on buying my next engine by MTH as well.
Bob Keller
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
"MTH demonstrated that there was a larger market for more prototypical trains than had been previously guessed."
Once again, in fairness, I must agree with Bob's caveat here. Even those who have nothing but contempt for Mike Wolf's style of doing things, such as myself, recognize his extraordinary contributions to the industry and hobby as Bob says. His competition clearly caused others, particularly Lionel, to improve their quality, constrain their prices and become even more innovative. Sometimes this is overstated, by those who fail to remember that even before Mike Wolf came on the scene, Lionel was experimenting with prewar reproductions, had started development of TMCC and Railsounds and other such paradigm shifting approaches.
But clearly Mike Wolf's energy, competitive nature and creativity pushed Lionel much more than would have occurred otherwise, and opened the door for Atlas, in particular, by promoting the hi-rail part of the hobby. So whatever unflattering things one can say about Mike Wolf and MTH, and I have mentioned a few, he and MTH deserve a lot of credit for growing the hobby, providing products that wouldn't have existed otherwise and that many love, and generally pushing the envelope overall.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Amazing to find thoughtful, reasoned posts on this topic.
Bob makes a good point here: "The more time between the end of the litigation and the current catalog of your favorite brand will be good for everyone." Personally, even with these issues, MTH has been good for the hobby and I like their stuff.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
I own both Lionel and MTH. I agree MTH concentrates more on scale which limits the number of their locomotives (steamers) that I can operate. Their Premier Line rolling stock and passenger sets have a level of detail that can leave Lionel in the dust.
I still love Lionel, but I think they have some quality issues. I have seen one of their brand new steam switchers, fresh out of the box, refuse to smoke and the sound system just made a loud buzzing noise. And that was a nearly $500 locomotive.
Between the long litigation expenses and the current recession, I guess both manufacturers have cut some corners.
"Regardless, MTH demonstrated that there was a larger market for more prototypical trains than had been previously guessed. When I started at CTT I asked why the new product coverage had been so limited and was told "Guys aren't that interested in the new stuff." But then I was hired specifically to do the product coverage, so that was certainly changing and that was 1996."
Bob makes an interesting point and it illustrates how much the hobby has changed in just over the past decade. The market for scale prototypical trains may have been larger than previously guessed at that time a decade ago, but that market is not as large nor as profitable as everyone seems to think it is either. MDK K-Line went down that prototypical track and found out the hard way.
One thing for certain: as some hobbiests turned their interests and dollars to accurate, advanced, scale sized trains, prices on used common postwar and especially MPC Lionel products have come way down from a decade ago.
I can honestly say because of MTH (and the technology/scale advances at Lionel too), I own far more postwar and MPC Lionel products than I suspected I would when I first re-entered the hobby. So while those electronically advanced scale products are of zero interest to me, I've certainly benefitted from them.
I have only one MTH-Rail King car that I bought on E-Bay (NIB with s&h less than half its list $) and was skeptical about the great "deal". As it turned out, it is a real gem.
With that experience, I sort of made a 'wish' list and ventured to three, not-so-near-by hobby shops. The MTH products shown were out-numbered @ 3 to 1 by Lionel. I am an O27 traditional guy. The buildings seemed a bit larger than Lionel and there seemed to be less O27 size rolling stock on display. The prices seemed to be either the same or slightly higher than the Lionel. One dealer that I spoke to suggested that his 'profit' from MTH in these hard economic times really made him decide to concentrate on Lionel.
My 'wish' list was not filled on that trip. I'll continue to look at MTH products as I see them but, in my particular case, Lionel, for now, has the edge. Thanks for asking.
I like some of MTH products, mainly their steam locomotives and rolling stock, never had any problem with the couplers on MTH. I have no regrets about buying any MTH product and will buy more as time allows. I have heard too much bad publicity about MTH Realtrax to attemp buying it.
As for Lionel I have very little loyalty for that company because they don't back up their product warrenty at times. Also Lionel's newer switches in tubular track(not Fastrac, I can't afford it)are the worst I have seen in over 14 years. Bought a brand new GP-7 from Lionel about 12 years ago and it would only pull four quad hoppers, even when powered by a ZW transformer.
Just for the record, Lionel helped put K-Line out of business by suing them a few years ago.
I personally think that Williams made a very high quality product for the money that you paid for them. The only thing is that Williams never put command control in any of their engines, they kept it simple. The other thing about Williams is that they are not well known outside of Classic Toy Train members.
Lee F.
"No childhood should be without a train!"
Im a Lionel guy, have been since the late fifties. the rest are new-comers IMHO.
I have had only one interaction with MTH and that was at our large show. The sales rep at the show was increadably rude and condesending. I was in the booth to see what was offered and perhaps expand my collection. It wont happen now.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
www.sd3r.org
Proud New Member Of The NRA
Jon
So many roads, so little time.
I actually got "back in the hobby" twice. Once in the early 80s with mainly Lionel (General Mills....yuck!) and some Williams (FM Trainmaster) and K-Line. Then again in 2006 when I moved to NM after retirement.The majority of my current stuff is MTH. I'm really not interested in the ins and outs of who started what in the toy train turf wars. I like that MTH makes scale stuff. And I go right to the locos and rolling stock that start with "20-" when I look at a new catalog or shop online. I also like DCS and it's ability to update via computer. I've done multiple updates with no problems whatsoever. I've see some people complain about the recent MTH DCS update and how it had to be done over. Well I'm glad MTH is staying on top of things with DCS and if I have to do it over every week it's no big deal. It sure beats sending in chips and hardware to be updated. Yeah yeah I know...Lionel said it would "just be that one time". But prior to that they said it would NEVER be necessary. I've also had no problems with MTH track, connectors or couplers, but I'm not running a 20 foot long consist of 5 pound cars either For my permanent track setup I may go with the Gargraves/Ross combo that jonadel mentions. Just becasue I like the looks of it. My only real beef with Lionel is a rather minor one...I still haven't figured out the secret code that indentifies scale trains from non-scale. I know about the "PS-" thing. But what about locos?? A shame they don't use the KISS principle that MTH uses and use a simple prefix in the number system to identify everything.BTW...I do own some postwar Lionel in the form of S-2 turbines. Dep
Virginian Railroad
MTH uses and use a simple prefix in the number system to identify everything.
This is only true for locomotives and only works one way. Premier locomotives are scale but the rolling stock is another matter. RailKing is usually undersized (except for some 1800's material that may be oversized). Some Railking subway sets are scale. Atlas O is always scale, even the streamlined passenger cars.
Why buyers have loyalty to one brand or another is personal. Why dealers have "issues" is often more complicated. Some feel they were burned by policy decisions made by their importer/suppliers. A lot of MTH's problems with their dealer network began with the way PS-2/DCS was announced/introduced. The announcement by Lionel of licensing TMCC to Atlas, K-Line, Weaver and Sunset 3rd Rail appears to have pushed up the announcement of PS-2/DCS. The initial announcement was after the release of the first catalog for 2000. Dealers placed orders and then DCS/PS-2 was announced in the followup catalog along with the lack of support/upgrade for PS-1 equipment. The dealers were stuck with product in the pipeline that they then had issues selling because their customers no longer wanted the "older" PS-1 product. When you couple this with the battery problems that happened about the same time and MTH's poor initial resonse and the delays with release of the DCS control equipment (Note the PS-2 loco's were delayed only a few months) you have a recipe for discontent. Lionel suffered some of the same with the original Odyssey motor and some teething problems with Legacy.
Other sore points for dealers (and this is not limited to a specific vendor) have to do with ordering policies, finance terms, or ancillary issues (operating layout, store front requirements, pricing). Warranty repairs (and issues of compensation for same) has become another sore point when coupled to lack of parts and the complexity of modern "toy" trains. Bottom line is if a dealer feels he's been "wronged" he's usually not going to be quiet about it.
BTW, there are a few dealers who can't seem to get along with anyone. I've often wondered why these guys are even bothering to open the store in the morning
chuck wrote: MTH uses and use a simple prefix in the number system to identify everything.This is only true for locomotives and only works one way. Premier locomotives are scale but the rolling stock is another matter. RailKing is usually undersized (except for some 1800's material that may be oversized). Some Railking subway sets are scale. Atlas O is always scale, even the streamlined passenger cars.
That's odd. All my MTH locos and rolling stock that are marked with a 20- prefix are also described as "scale" on the box. Railking is numbered 30- and is NOT scale, except for some diesel locos that are also described as Railking Scale. As a matter of fact, every description in an MTH catalog of Premier (20-) rolling stock describes it as "scale". And some of my favorite locos are Proto 1 locos that I got at a super good price because of those "battery problems". I just replaced the battery with a BCR battery eliminator from J and W and presto...future problems solved.
Dep
Scale premier streamlined passenger cars measure out to 72 feet long. The prototypes are 80-85 feet long. The car carriers are also slightly short. Most of the cabooses are actually the same irregardless of the packaging. A customer once asked this about a pair of cabooses he spotted on the shelf at a shop. aka "What's the diff between these two?" Correct answer was the color of the box and the price tag.
The initial repsonse from MTH (letters/press releases) was that the "battery problem" was primarily a user IQ issue. WHile this is partialy true it is not a smart reply from a PR/customer service stand point. It took a while before it was relaized that there were a) a lot of bad batteries out there and b) there were a number of PS-1 loco's with chip issues that could lead to lock ups if these chips used with bad batteries. There was an eventual compromise solution but the way this initially was handled left a bad taste in a lot of customer and dealers mouths. The BCR is a fine product and a good solution to the entire issue of a required battery to make the train opperate properly.
Well, cause I don't like MTH, why else?
MTH is the devil's work!!!!
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