OGR Website RIP

[cwburfle]

I will not be participating. I could see limiting access to OGR subscribers, but I cannot see charging a fee just to use the board.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Welcome back to the other side of the tracks guys. Its been a little quiet around here lately!

The truth is, I subscribe to both magazines, and am a member of both websites, but for a nimber of reasons have been much more comfortable over here. The decision to charge for the OGR forum, may very well be the death of it, and those that choose to pay will find the conversation much less fun and interesting without the voices of those who don't.

[spankybird]

Good morning all,

I have read the OGR form over the years, just joined this year. I notice the question of Newbies and are they willing to pay $18.00 for one question – one answer. Will they pay that or look else ware. I think new blood is the life that keep the form going. I’m still new here. I joined last year, but didn’t post until this year. I don’t know if I would have paid $18.00 to do that.

Time will tell.

tom

[Anonymous]

Just bid the OGR Forum adios. I participated for about four years ...mostly just checked the topics every now and then to see if there was something that could help me. When I'd post a question I seldom got any replies. Seemed to be more of a clique than anything else.......but that's just me.... Bottom line is, I would not pay 18 bucks on top of a magazine subscription. I still subscribe to OGR along with Model Railroader and CTT and I'll continue to take all three until the OGR subscription runs out ...then I'll probably let it drop. John Harding

[brianel027]

Without doubt the OGR Forum gets more action than over here. More members, and members who are very active posters. There has been discussion over there for sometime about this fee thing happening.

But along with member Alan Miller I am profoundly bothered by the name calling, under the so-called premise of having fun. Many of the scale guys on the OGR Forum have become more fussy, more demanding and more picky than any HO modeler I have ever met. The term "weenie" fits these O scale guys far better! I read the recent posting over there on the whole "weenie" topic and found it disgusting. How guys that can be so smart on topics of train technology and control can act or say things that are so stupid, narrow-minded and ignorant is beyond me.!!

That and I strongly feel the hobby should be more INCLUSIVE, not EXCLUSIVE!
Whether you choose "traditional" trains or scale, whether you run TMCC or DCS, or don't use digital control at all, whether you're a tinplater or a hirailer, whether you just buy Lionel, or K-Line or MTH - OR have no brand loyalty. EVERYONE should be made to feel like they are part of the hobby. Put downs and insults on modelers who make different choices don't help the hobby.

Granted, the opinions of a few individuals don't represent the whole of the hobby. And even with the active group of members over there, they still do not represent the "whole" of this hobby. I know many modelers, 027 guys who don't buy scale or control, who are too busy to be posting on a train forum everyday. They have kids, jobs and constraints on their time that comes with all that.

I respect much of the knowledge that guys over there (as well as over here) have on different aspects of the hobby. MTH has acknowledged that members of the OGR Forum have been essential to working through problems with DCS. Which is terrific. What isn't terrific is the predominant attitude that if you don't use "control" and don't model in perfect prototypical "scale" then you don't know how to run trains.

Trains have been non-command and non-scale for nearly 90 years and the hobby has made it this far. The new technological and scale advances obviously open new doors and have brought in new blood to the hobby. But I have as much fun with my trains without any of these advances.

I don't knock those who choose scale or command control. Why some of those folks feel it necessary to knock those who don't is the exact and only reason I stopped posting over on the other Forum, money or not.

[Bob Keller]

We certainly welcome any newcomers (to the hobby or our website).

We've been on-line since 1996 providing monthly product news updates.

We're the only toy train magazine posting on-line videos of many of the locomotives we test for the magazine.

We post additional editorial content (where appropriate) to supplement what's in the magazine.

We have a free monthly newsletter that will clue you in to any breaking news stories.

We have on-line PDF files for each year of publication and a PDF file to help you find which issue of CTT a specific locomotive or product was reviewed in.

And of course we have a forum.

And while I'd hate to go out on a limb and say we'd never charge for accessing the website – I'm not aware of any movement to do so. Kelly Shaw and I do most of the grunt work for the web and it isn't a significant drain on our magazine time.

Thanks to the folks already participating on our forum, and welcome to those just looking around!

[eZAK]

I think OGR may be making a fatal error.

I myself and alot of others are taking a wait and see stance as lurking there will still be free for now.
If enough members refuse to pay, the value of the site will drop.

Here is what you get for $18;
Web hosting of pictures. (this can be easily found on the web for free)

Good advice & solution to problems. (With a little effort this also can be done for free through the web and other forums) (Hopefully this one)

Possible inter-action with the toy train importers. (This will only work if their answers are truthful and to the point. No side stepping)

On another note; If you are coming over from the 'other forum' Please try to use your same sign in name so that I and others can identify with you.

Pat Zak

[Anonymous]

" ....members who are very active posters"

I've enjoyed and appreciated what I consider to be the more "open" and "courteous" discussions found here.

I do have to say that I'd enjoyed many of the discussions and topics from quite a number of the posters on OGR. As well as all the helpful tips and suggestions. However I found that came at a stiff price to begin with. Over "there" a post about smoke fluid alternatives, quality control problems, poor customer service or modern day toy train prices will get your topic deleted pronto. And in the few cases that it does not the cantankerous types start berating your level of involvment, what they thinkg your income bracket is or the "hidden agenda/reasoning" behind your stance.

IMO that problem will only increase as those paying to join "the club" will now feel even more entitled to behvae that way.

[Anonymous]

I lurk on both boards. I find the information here to be more technical and more helpful.

My lurking days at OGR will end when the fee begins. By the way. I ONLY subscribe to CTT !

Jeff

[Anonymous]

I was one of OGR's more perdominant posters. I think they shot them self in the foot with this move.....


Chris-The Train Kid.

[JFermani]

I've been a member of the OGR forum since 2000 and only have 300-400 posts. In no way is $18 worth it for a few posts a year. A lot of people on that forum do not have high posts so I would be surprised if a lot of them pay. Only a few posters have high counts. Maybe this can become the next premier fourm. I've been a member here for awhile but I think my participation will be increasing. I already pay for the internet, I do not want to have to pay to access a forum. My budget won't allow it. Anyway, glad to see some familiar faces from the other side of the tracks. [:D]

I am looking forward to see what happens in June. In the meantime - Lets talk trains here!

[Anonymous]

Hi guys,

Thanks for coming to this forum. As my co-worker Bob Keller mentioned above, everyone is welcome. We've never had to censor anything on the CTT forum or kick anyone off the CTT forum, but the usual rules about appropriate language and being civil to each other apply. If you have any specific questions about CTT, you can send me an email directly at [e-mail].

Sincerely,
Neil Besougloff
editor, CTT

[MartyE]

I think the RIP is a bit early. Although the issue of charging for posting abilities may prove me wrong. I'll probably spend the $18 and see what I get for my dollar and decide after the first year if it was worth it. Already having Lionel in a special web session is a positive sign.

That being said though, I have already joined the this and other forums so I can keep in touch with the friends that decided to move on. I respect their reasons regrdless of what they are.

So I shall keep in touch my friends. This is a blessing in disquise as I have found 2 other forums to belong too as well. I already knew and belong to this one for a while.

And if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Keller used to be part of the Compuserve TrainNet Forum. Good to see he has done so well for himself.

MartyE

[Anonymous]

You may have a big jump in posters in the next couple of months since a lot of the OGR people are not staying on board with the fee charge. I didn't like the tone of some who said that $18.00 was "chump change", indicating that everybody could just jump right in a pay the fee no questions asked. Let's see: I subscribe to OGR, CTT, Garden Railways; belong to two garden railway clubs, LGB club, etc., etc. - and I'm RETIRED!!! The buck has to stop someplace. MLS started charging a fee for their website and LSOL got me a few years ago with a fee. So, by now $18.00 is not "chump change" - it's a pain in the rear.[:(]

[FJ and G]

I will be coming over here and visiting a few other forums (I go to Model Railroader's forum for scenery and track tips, posting under FJ&G, despite being a 3-railer myself). I'd like to continue meeting some of the ex-OGR crowd, wherever they might be as it once upon a time was the best forum to visit. But all good things must end.

Dave Vergun

[FJ and G]

I feel a lot better now. I just did my final post on OGR, wishing everyone the best. On to some new forums now.

Dave Vergun

[JFermani]

Dave,

Glad to see you moved over. I always liked your posts on OGR and look forward to reading more over here.

Joe

[Anonymous]

I said goodbye to the OGR forum a while ago, too. Nice to see familiar names on-board here. Even though I don't like the term "toy train" (right, Neil?), I can live with it.

[Anonymous]

Well I just made my first post here, I feel that forums are not forums unless there is free access. I think the people make a forum what it is. I am into Scale but like pre-war Lionel also so you will not get any flak from me if you are into those great trains of our youth, or your Dads youth[:)]. JIM

[Anonymous]

I have just come over from the "other Furom" website and will now look forward to interacting and posting on this website forum. [8D]

[nblum]

Nothing against the OGRR Forum (where I am simply NEIL), which I've benefited from and enjoyed, but it has always been possible to discuss the trials and tribulations of this turbulent industry over here (CTT), but not over there (OGRR). There are potentially extraordinary changes taking place in this industry and hobby (some you've heard about and a few not).

As hobbiests or amateur toy train historians and philosophers :), those who are interested in these issues should be able to have a civil discussion of what's going on in the three rail world, IMO. If this is the place where that can be done, more power to CTT and this forum.

I've always been a big fan of CTT since their first issue many years ago now. I hope to see this forum become an even busier and more dynamic place than before. Welcome to the OGRR refugees ;). I hope OGRR Forum continues to do well also with its new business model. But the potential for large numbers and free discussion, and friendliness to newbies is greater now here, IMO.

[Craignor]

Folks,

Hi guys, I too have just come over from the OGR Forum.

I subscribe to both CTT and OGR.

I like to run Scale, Semi-Scale, Pre-War, Modern, Toy, Command Control, DCS, TMCC, Proto 1, Conventional, Traction, you name it!

If its O-Gauge, I am going to like it.[:)]

I just finished my basement and built a new 8x16 layout. Here is a photo.

[GPJ68]

Hello, my name is GPJ, and I was an OGR'aholic......

It's kinda cool actually, leaving that "other" forum and finding so many familar names now here. While I'm not exactly a prolific poster, I do read quite a few and tend to go on a posting "binge" every now and then. And since I fall into the "Toy Train" category more-so than a "Rivet Counter", I'm guessing I'll fit in a little better here as well.

And an early "Thanks!!" to CTT for providing a free access forum for train enthusiasts to meet and discuss all the goings-on in the hobby.

[tsu sam]

I signed up here a little while ago, I think, and looks like I will be checking in more regularly. I did so because of the tie in to the other mags associated with CTT. I have just renewed my subscribtion to CTT, and had finally signed up for an OGR subscribtion. Now I am supposed to pay for OGR forum too. To be honest, the Kalmbach websites are way more informative than OGR's website (not talking about the forums), and they are free! Doesn't bother me to be seen ona toy site, cause I do it for fun, not to get twisted up over someone elses approach, though I love the brass steam engines and accuracy. I'm into ATSF, Frisco, Katy, steam and diesel. Also love the small scenic railroads (Branson Scenic, North Arkansas & Missouri, Arkansa &Oklahoma, etc) and class II local rails. Anyway, Hello.

[Anonymous]

Hi Guys,
I have come over as well. I have subscribed to CTT for a lot longer than OGR. It is not because I can't afford the 18 bucks, I just feel that if you support the magazine, you should get some return. I will probably drop OGR over this issue, as one magazine on toy trains is enough for me. Not to butter up our new hosts, but I actually prefer CTT better anyway.

[chorst01]

As I said over there, some consideration needs to be given those who subscribe to the mag. I subscribe to CTT also and find it an excellent contribution to the literature of model railroading. Hopefully the management of CTT will be more enlightened than over at OGR.

-chh

[johnnyc]

OGR forum is not dead yet , jus kinda smells funny . [swg] johnnyc

[Anonymous]

I BELONG TO BOTH FORUMS BUT AFTER JUNE 1 I WILL ONLY BE A MEMBER OF THIS ONE

[Phil1361]

Wow! All I can say is Wow!

This whole thing hasn't hit home yet. The OGR forum was such a big part of my life. I mean I would check it every day at home and then again when I'm at work. It is going to be weird not to post there anymore.

Hey Chris the train Kid it's good to see you over here.

Happy Railroading
Phil (Hudson J1e)

[Anonymous]

Hi guys! This is my first post also and I'm glad we have an alternative to the OGR Forum. As of late they have become repetitive and boring and perhaps just a little too scale focused for a traditional toy train operator like me. I use Lionel's TMCC and I enjoy both talking about new traditional sized trains and Lionel Postwar. [:D]

[waltrapp]

Some of you know that I've been on both forums for a long time. I post on both (my most recent post on this forum was about 3 weeks ago - about K-Line switches vs. Lionel O27 ones but I have answered a few questions too for others).

I don't like the bashing of the OGR forum that you ex-members are doing. I read the same negative comments here from the same people as I did over there. It seems like certain disgruntles want to bash and bash. Just post here and forget about venting and bad-mouthing.

I'm not sure what I'll do in regard to OGR. I'm not interested in posting albums and avatars and participating in Acela chats, but I do post and learn much on that forum. If you didn't know, they have a forum exclusive for TMCC and another for DCS. MTH POINTS TO THE OGR FORUM FROM THEIR PROTOSOUND 2 SITE!!!!! That's how good that site is. And many of the 'answerers' on that forum are in direct and daily contact with the DEVELOPERS of MTH. Not too shabby.

So if you object to the fee (which I too am against BTW) don't use that to try to point out how crappy the OGR forum is. That's really not fair.

I realize I'm sticking my neck out a bit here by saying these things. I don't plan on being the defender of the cause in any way. I just don't think the bashing going on here was fair.

I will continue to post here as I have been doing since almost its inception. What I decide to do over there I don't know. I do know that I enjoy the OGR gathering at York - where else can a regular joe like me get the big-time players (reps from the various train companies, Brady e.g.) in the game to talk directly to you and answer your questions?

- undecided Walt

[Anonymous]

I am undecided whether to dump the OGR forum or not. I subscribe to both OGR and CTT magazines. I am puzzled why a subscriber to the magazine would also have to shellout to post to the forum. I don't see the added value right now., but am willing to look and see after June 1. Meanwhile, I will put the CTT forum on my favorites list.

Thats my [2c]!

Dave

[MartyE]

I agree with Walt. The OGR forum is very good. It does have it's issues as all do or eventually will. They are going through a big chnage with the introduction of the fee. Like I said earlier I will sign up for one year and see what I get. It's a personal decision that folks have to make as far as $$$ vs value.

I would be wrong to say that the wealth of information gained there was invaluable and still is. I hope to gain as much here as well. I think folks obviously have strong feelings about this and eventually it will simmer down.

[bowlerp]

I have only 2-3 posts on this board, and 700+ on the OGR board over several years - a modest amount. I haven't decided whether I will pay. I do agree that there is much material that is irrelevant to me personally, but I just move on and look for another topic. When it gets personal - I leave.

It is incredible to me that an individual not personally acquainted with another will deign to openly criticize and excoriate a fellow enthusiast. It is all quite distastful and arrogant behavior and not helpful to the hobby. On the other hand, many people are extremely helpful and bend over backwards to post information to answer someone's technical questions. That spirit of helpfulness and cooperation is what makes the hobby rewarding on that level.

My personal feeling about OGR is that perhaps Rich is trying to regain a piece of his life and reduce the amount of time he must commit to that Forum. It has become a monster to manage. I certainly understand those feelings, as well as the real concerns about the cost of running the Forum in ca***erms for servers, memory, bandwidth, etc. The Forum certainly has been a great help to the new owners of OGR to establi***hemselves with their reader base. I hope they can continue to connect with us.

I enjoy both magazines by subscription, and the hobby is richer for having the two of them.

[Anonymous]

When the fee subject was first raised last year, I was against it as a matter of principle. As a group, we have to keep the use of the internet free. Paying a fee for access encourages others to charge one. I'm pleased to see CTT evolving by offering more for the non-tradionalist. Perhaps this forum can evolve into the forum of choice for all O-gaugers.

[Anonymous]

Hello everybody. Greetings from Coastal Carolina It's great to see some familiar names from the other forum.. I've been a member here for a while now. I've also posted on the Model Railroader forum. Lots of levels to comment in over here. If you're into trains, model and the real deal, this is heaven. John Harding

[Anonymous]

I started posting on this board, but moved to the OGR board because I got a higher number of responses to my topics, including Frank Ellison and postwar repair questions (see my posts about the 182 crane on both forums). I found it interesting that some felt that this forum was THE one to get helpful postwar info; I found the reverse to be true, initially.
However, seeing CW (whom I am still beholden to) and eZAK and Allan Miller, in additon to the icon Brianel, and a myriad of others (including odd-d), leads me to think that perhaps this forum will now be the 'happening' place.
My concern is not the charge, but whether the cameraderie is good, the exchange of ideas helpful and friendly, and whether Mr. Keller can keep it from degenerating into a name-calling, 'my-trains-are-better-than-your-trains' free-for-all.

[Anonymous]

JimTT,

Nice picture. Is that from your layout? I like scale or more realism too, but I have lots of post-war stuff that blends in nicely. This looks like a good forum, so I bet we'll have more and more OGR immigrants landing here over the next few weeks.

[eZAK]

[#welcome]

It is a pleasure to see some familar names here.[^]

nblum (aka;Neil) I surprized you didn't stay and pay everyones way. [;)] [(-D]

Just Kidding! [swg]

Pat Zak

[Anonymous]

Hey, I forgot I was a member here. I wonder how many posts I've made?

I paid OGR my $18 to give them a chance to prove themselves right. Seems only fair since I enjoyed their forum for so many years. But if they don't, I've wasted more money on less...

Let's see now, OGR, Atlas, and Model Train Journal. Where will everyone end up? Gotta cover all the bases!

RR_4_FUN

[Anonymous]

Hello everybody. I, too, am a "refugee" from the OGR site. I joined there on
the recommendation of a friend. I've had a subscription with OGR since the
"Scale O Railroading" days, but the subscription, too, shall end. (See my rea-
sons why in the OGR site. I did not bash and I learned a lot the short time I
was there. The comaraderie was not there.

I have had a subscription with CTT since the very first issue. (Actually the 2nd)
My late father showed me issue #1 and I signed up right after.

I am a 3rd generation toy/model train guy. I have spent 50 years actively being
involved with the hobby (even thru GIRLS/WIVES!) without a break. Tried a few
different scales, but never ditched the O Gauge stuff. Still have the ORIGINAL
trains from my grandfather, great-uncle, and my father. I have two sons one of
whom shows an interest (mildly) in the hobby, and three grandchildren who
also LOVE the stuff! Many other contemporary members of my family are also
O Gauge train hobbyists.

Am retired, fixed income, finally getting out things that I purchased specifically
years/decades ago when I could afford them and enjoying them now.

Hope to learn and also maybe even share information regarding this wonder-
ful pastime.

Thanks.

[Phil1361]

Well, it isn't dead yet. I hate to say it but I see a slow and agonizing cancer coming on. First, June 1st they will lose 1/2 to maybe even 2/3 of their membership. Then during that first year a good portion of those people will see that other forums (such as this one) have gotten much better and realize, "Why should I pay for it here when I can go to a better forum for free?" Eventually what you will have is a small clique of hobbiests who will stay together. New people won't join due to the fee. And the worst part about it is they are even going to lose subscriptions over this. I will keep mine as it is still a good magazine. And that's how it will stay unless OGR shuts it down or changes policy.

Of course I could be wrong. If I could predict stuff I would be rich by now!

I've noticed that a lot people have said I'll pay since I have been using their forum for years. Well, remember when Myron J. Bigger was at the helm? They had the OGR Forum tank car which the profits for that were to pay for the forum expenses. Why don't they just run one of those per year? I bought one the tank cars in support of the forum. Not only did I support the forum but I got a nice tank car too. But the best thing about that was the guys who couldn't afford it did not HAVE TO BUY IT!

Happy Railroading
Phil (Hudson J1e)

[Kooljock1]

But will we have to burn our OGR Forum shirts after June 1st???

Jon [8D]

[FJ and G]

I just just lurked over at the OGR website and the cry is out that we are bashing them on this website.

How childish! So far, I haven't read anyone badmouthing them at all. Just wishing them the best.

I do think that Rich & company really killed a good thing, however. That is the most "bashing" I will say.

[Anonymous]

I too think that the RIP may be premature. No one knows for sure what will happen to the OGR forum until the thing works itself out to the end, whatever that may be, bitter or otherwise.

May I also point out that the name calling thing works both ways. That is, the folks on the OGR forum shouldn't be calling anyone names, and neither should the folks on this forum. Frankly, I do not consider myself part of any "clique" on the OGR forum, and I have already paid for my subscription & will remain active there. I find the insinuation that those who decide to pay the subscription fee & continue to use the forum offensive. Whether or not I renew my subscription will, of course, depend up on how things turn out.

Tony

[NH_Chris]

Change is constant, and not always for the better. I think the OGR website is a victim of its' own success. Something not mentioned (often) in these discussions is the $$$ it must be costing OGR for the software, bandwidth, etc.

I also regret the bashing, which is not pretty for anyone involved.

Geez, now I have two forums to follow...

NH Chris

[Anonymous]

Another OGR refugee here, I didn't post much there because I never really felt like I belonged. I don't have a huge layout and I don't run thousand dollar engines so I felt out of place. After looking around here this place just feels better. BTW CTT I just sent in a check for my subscription to show my gratitude for this forum.

[thor CNJ]

What's this nonsense about thousand-dollar engines? I run Marx, and most of mine cost less than $25! [:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Hi, I am here also. I had never been on a forum other than OGR even though I subcribe to both magizines as well as Garden railways.

I hope it works out for everyone on both sides of the fence.

Don

[nitroboy]

I will be a new member here. Won't pay $18 for a site that I mostly just read.

Dave

[cnw1995]

I wish I knew where Thor found his wonderful Marx (and $25 engines). ;) The New Marx is pretty expensive.

[thor CNJ]

I found some of my Marx here:

http://www.trainmarket.com

Keep in mind that mine is all original pre-1975, and it is much cheaper in cost than the new Marx.

[Anonymous]

I have not been one who makes alot of posts on forum's, so I can't see paying for something I don't use that much. In looking at the forums and seeing posts numbering in the thousands,I wonder how these people find time work or even run their trains? I subscribe to both magazine's and enjoy both. Best of luck to OGR pay per view fourm.

Keith

[cnw1995]

Thank you, Thor! I am interested in that era as well. I love their color and their operating accessories.

[Buck216]

Hi to all soon to be OGR lurkers, like myself. I am just Buck on OGR and while a member here for a while this is my first post. I don't quite get OGR's logic on the fee, but I don't own a magazine or a forum so my imput is not even worth $0.02. I truly wish OGR the best of luck with its new venture. Is this the age of a super train forum, who knows? As I stated at OGR, I have never paid to use a forum and do not intend to start now, enought said.

[Anonymous]

As a OGR forum member, I'm on the fence about the $18.00. I can understand that if you can afford $1200 for a scale locomotive, what's $18.00? OTOH why pay for advice that can be gathered for free elsewhere? I think charging may take some of the fun out of it, but I'll wait and see.

I've been a subscriber to CTT for the past year, and I find the magazine to be very helpful. I am in the process of finishing a 031 version of the Coal Trestle layout featured in the last 4 issues. I find the magazine to be very informative and helpful. OGR is a great magazine as well, but my wife got me a subscription to CTT[:D]. Plus CTT gives you two more issues.

Glad to be here on the "other" side of the tracks[:)].

[okiechoochoo]

I just read the ogr forum myself. I don't go there often as I wasn't aware of the 18 fee until today. I won't be paying it so I will be coming here. I saw all those posts about the bashing here also. I read every post here and I didn't see any bashing. This will no doubt be a nicer place.

[Anonymous]

Welcome OGR folks. I am an on again/off again hobbysit who just finished the worlds best shelf layout and am hooked big time. I run my dad pre war sets (3) as well as a variety of postwar and modern stuff. I am looking to buy the TMCC equipment since the remote control works well with the 7 foot shelf. Happy to have all the great minds in one place!

[Trainman52]

I'm here too !! It isn't the $18.00. There are many forums on the Net that are free. Those users who want "deluxe" features such as posting photos should be the ones who pay the premium for additional storage space on a server.

[Anonymous]

Hi all, this is Will from the OGR Forum. I have been registered here for a few years, but never posted.

Walt, I understand your jumping to the OGR Forum's defense, but I really haven't see a lot of bashing going on, at least in this thread. If people are a little angry, that's understandable. After all, its the members that have made that Forum what it is and it belongs to them as much as anyone, in spirit any way. I saw the thread you started over there, and wish you hadn't. It can only start a war.

As for the assessment that its not a place where a totally free discussion can go on about some of the very things that are important to us, I'm afraid I agree.

Hey, I just saw my registration date and post count! I've been here three years and 1 post! That means I've got seniority on all you guys so watch out![:p][}:)]

Seriously, I registered at Trains.com along time ago, but have never visited the forum. OGR was like family to me. And I think that's why so many people are peeved. Otherwise they'd just disappear quietly. I really think Rich is making a mistake and may not have explored all the options. Look at all the ads here.

[Anonymous]

Hi

me new to this forum, I liked the OGR forum because the things I created I was will to share for FREE. Now this $18 pay to contribute is just stupid.

Looky OGR is basically two guys Rich Melvin and Jim Barrett;
with the forum they have 4000 readers and a few hundred contributors that they did not have to pay;

They advertised the forum to in the magazine and to advertisers the forum was another outlet for their product promotions;

Just ask them to print OGR articles in the forum instead of the teasers and of course they wont; that they cab get money for


Alan Nelson

[Anonymous]

Hell, with all the little Cliques they have on that forum, it's no wonder they are charging. When I was on there, if I said anything against the "flow" of what the "regulars" thought, I was rudely told to shut up. No kidding. I have let my subscription to the magazine lapse because of that too because Melvin refused to tell the clique members to be civil. Now they can have their own private site and listen to one another spout BS that only they themselves believe. LONG LIVE CTT and TOY trains!!

[jonadel]

It's good to have choices and I'm looking forward to this board and what it will provide for all of us. I've been a long time subscriber of both magazines and have enjoyed the special "uniqueness" of both products. I haven't decided for sure as to what I will do on June 1, maybe just lurk.

Jon

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Harding

Just bid the OGR Forum adios. I participated for about four years ...mostly just checked the topics every now and then to see if there was something that could help me. When I'd post a question I seldom got any replies. Seemed to be more of a clique than anything else.......but that's just me.... Bottom line is, I would not pay 18 bucks on top of a magazine subscription. I still subscribe to OGR along with Model Railroader and CTT and I'll continue to take all three until the OGR subscription runs out ...then I'll probably let it drop. John Harding

Funny--I just noticed this post ealier....Guess it wasn't just me!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

I feel a lot better now. I just did my final post on OGR, wishing everyone the best. On to some new forums now.

Dave Vergun

Welcome David. And thank you for your story that you did on my wife Wilma some time ago! Welcome to CTT. I never considered you part of the "Santa Fe Jim" Click.

[Anonymous]

I think it is unfortunate that OGR is going to charge for its forum. I think it will shrink the range of participants, myself included, I didn't post that often but it was nice being able to step in every once in a while, give advice, or praise someone's efforts. I am not going to pay a yearly fee to do that. I will continue to monitor it but fear it may turn into a rather sterile place.

[Anonymous]

I can only hope that you CLIQUE guys from OGR don't try that stuff here. If you start the name calling and all and I have to not let my son be a part of this form Neil is going to hear from me personally and I think he'll be a little more responsive than Rich Melvin was.

[Anonymous]

Well I will be trying out this forum, will not be paying the $18.00 for the ability to post on the OGR forum. I was not a major poster on the OGR, about 900 postings over 4 years.

Bill T.
Seattle & Yakima RR

[Anonymous]

Hi Guys!

I couldn't get in as Chugman, so I had to use Chugman1. I am curious who is the original Chugman on this forum? Good to see so many familiar names.

[Anonymous]

Easy there Jack, no need to get your panties in a bunch yet. The Clique guys are staying put. I won't hesitate to contact Neil if you rub me the wrong way also.

[Anonymous]

I signed up for this forum quite a while ago, and have never posted. I have paid my $18 over on the OGR forum, since I believe that it is a good forum. I overlook any name calling (HO as "weenies', etc). It doesn't bother me. But, that is just me. I have enjoyed reading from the OGR forum, and have learned a lot. I enjoy this website for the articles (I subscribe to CTT, but not OGR). I really hope that the people that come over here, from there do so in a graceful maner, and don't sling any more names or other slander. Both are good forums.

[Dr. John]

I'm new to this forum and a veteran of the OGR forum. I am undecided on paying the $18.00 fee. I have enjoyed the other forum and have no animosity toward anyone on it. Hopefully, I will enjoy this forum and learn as much.

[brianel027]

Thanks Amtrak Jack.

Whoa! The action here lately is unbelieveable. Almost makes me wish for last week when it was just me and Spankybird, or me and Big_Boy4005 or about 6 or 7 other combinations!

Well seriously, this has been a wonderful site over the past 5 months to talk about 027 NON-SCALE trains and not be ridiculed. It's great to admit to reading the Model Railroader without being called some name (used all too much at the OGRR Forum) and that's not because I lack a sense of humor or am too sensitive... it's because I REPSECT ALL SCALES!

I've seen some amazing layouts in all different scales. I've seen neat layouts on a 4'x8' board as well as ones that fill the basement. And prior to the member/posting surge of the past few days, the tone here has been outstandingly civil. Even when we disagree, it's with understanding someone's viewpoint and tastes.

There were alot of posts with questions around the holiday on starter sets, and getting out/cleaning up the old trains... what set to buy... how to set it up. Those of us here at that time: Lionelsoni, Sask Tinplater, Big_Boy4005, Amtrak Jack, myself and maybe a few others I forgotten did our best to make those people feel eveybit as much a part of the hobby as some of the pros.

This is an exciting time here. I hope the tone of respect for ALL aspects of this hobby shall continue. Many of you guys from the OGRR Forum are intelligent guys who know your trains. There's wonderful opportunities here.

I don't think the OGRR Forum is dead yet. Obviously there's changes happening, and the dust will settle eventually. Hopefully folks will see that both Forums offer something to the hobby. Just as both Classic Toy Trains and O Gauge Railroading magazines do!! I look forward to both magazines. They both focus on slightly different things which is great.

I'm sure at some point, there will be some heated issues. We had one here a couple weeks ago on FasTrack. But everyone spoke their piece with no mudslinging. Many novices check out this forum first. We have a responsibility and an great opportunity to help this hobby grow. Remember, it starts with the kids.... the dream grows from there. And most of us are still kids at heart, even if our trains have grown-up in scale and detail.

Cheers and welcome everyone!

[KeithL]

I've been a member of the OGR Forum since December 2000, with about 100 posts, and a member of this forum since February 2001, with a handful of posts. I won't be paying $18 to continue participating in the OGR Forum--I wouldn't pay anything to participate in any online forum.

The OGR Forum has been a great source of information, but it was definitely more fun in the early days, when it was more open to a range of interests. I think that the OGR Forum, like OGR Magazine, is increasingly converging on O SCALE railroading (albeit with a 3rd rail) as opposed to O GAUGE railroading. This is a much narrower and more serious focus.

CTT is more open: hi-rail O gauge, "toy" O gauge of both modern and classic vintage, as well as other gauges of trains. For me, this is a more interesting and FUN approach. Actually, I dropped my OGR subscription and now only pick it up in the three months that CTT, to which I still subscribe, doesn't come out.

I look forward to participating in this forum more.

Keith

[Anonymous]

I really like the CTT magazine and am a long time subscriber. But as regards this forum---good luck guys. With an ornery badger attitude like Amtrak Jack's you will need it . CTT and Neil B. will soon find out why moderation("censorship") is necessary.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brianel027

Thanks Amtrak Jack.

Whoa! The action here lately is unbelieveable. Almost makes me wish for last week when it was just me and Spankybird, or me and Big_Boy4005 or about 6 or 7 other combinations!

Well seriously, this has been a wonderful site over the past 5 months to talk about 027 NON-SCALE trains and not be ridiculed. It's great to admit to reading the Model Railroader without being called some name (used all too much at the OGRR Forum) and that's not because I lack a sense of humor or am too sensitive... it's because I REPSECT ALL SCALES!

I've seen some amazing layouts in all different scales. I've seen neat layouts on a 4'x8' board as well as ones that fill the basement. And prior to the member/posting surge of the past few days, the tone here has been outstandingly civil. Even when we disagree, it's with understanding someone's viewpoint and tastes.

There were alot of posts with questions around the holiday on starter sets, and getting out/cleaning up the old trains... what set to buy... how to set it up. Those of us here at that time: Lionelsoni, Sask Tinplater, Big_Boy4005, Amtrak Jack, myself and maybe a few others I forgotten did our best to make those people feel eveybit as much a part of the hobby as some of the pros.

This is an exciting time here. I hope the tone of respect for ALL aspects of this hobby shall continue. Many of you guys from the OGRR Forum are intelligent guys who know your trains. There's wonderful opportunities here.

I don't think the OGRR Forum is dead yet. Obviously there's changes happening, and the dust will settle eventually. Hopefully folks will see that both Forums offer something to the hobby. Just as both Classic Toy Trains and O Gauge Railroading magazines do!! I look forward to both magazines. They both focus on slightly different things which is great.

I'm sure at some point, there will be some heated issues. We had one here a couple weeks ago on FasTrack. But everyone spoke their piece with no mudslinging. Many novices check out this forum first. We have a responsibility and an great opportunity to help this hobby grow. Remember, it starts with the kids.... the dream grows from there. And most of us are still kids at heart, even if our trains have grown-up in scale and detail.

Cheers and welcome everyone!

Brianel
I have a feeling you may wish for last week more than once.
Keith

[dk99358]

Well I'm here too now. Never did post much on the OGR forum but paying for the few I did make really rubs me wrong. No other problems just moving on.

Take care,

Dale

[maddognc]

Maddog will check in here too, but will stay involved in the OGR forum. Happy chatting guys.

Mark

[Anonymous]

Wow! It's great to see so many familiar names here.

Ed

(formerly MICHAEDX)

[Anonymous]

Greetings All,

I also am shifting from the other site. While I enjoyed it and did occasionally post a message, I actually posted only 50-60 times a year. Just isn't worth paying $18 for that. I suppose I'll lurk there a bit and maybe even post one or two more times until they shut us non-payers off in June. But I'm hoping that this site will become my first choice.

Dave

[penn station]

Hi guys,

I wanted to grab my username over here. Ironically, it was the anti-bashing topic at OGR that led me to check this out.

Cam

[brianel027]

Well I hope not Keithrd... I'm trying to be a little more of an optimist in my old age. Hey, I know we all want different things from the companies... we all have different takes on what should be done... we all have different product likes and dislikes.

For example, I don't buy a whole lot of MTH stuff (mostly for size issues) but I still have immense respect for what Mike Wolf has done for the hobby as a whole.

And yeah, our beloved Amtrak Jack can come off a little ornery - but I've been reading his posts here - he doesn't mince words - but he cares about the hobby and does his homework on stuff... our FasTrack topic from a few weeks ago is a fine example.

Like I said before, good can come of this if folks want that to happen. [:)] And regardless of some of the readjustment tensions, there's been good over at the OGR Forum too. You guys all know MTH has acknowledged the help and insight with DCS that they got from the OGR Forum. So hopefully folks will figure where they want to post. There's no pressure from anyone here.

But again, there has been a tone of respect here for tinplaters, semi-scalers, and 027 modelers that was sometimes lacking at the other Forum. At least that's what has been perceived by some, whether it was intended or not.
Jack's tone above was defensive, but well meaning... I know he wants the tone of respect to continue.

No reason why it can't or why it shouldn't.

Many of you OGR guys are smart guys who are knowledgeable on different aspects of the hobby. There's a wealth of information available with folks here... and that's what it's about.

And what better advertisement for the hobby or any train forum than to have a newcomer, or a modeler with a train problem thank us for getting them off to a good start. [^]

[Anonymous]

I just signed up over here. Cancelled my subscription to OGR today. Been a member of their forum since 2001. But I'm done over there now! Just wanted to say hello.
Barry

[MartyE]

I think once evryone settles in all will be fine. It's a big change for everyone and will take a bit for everyone to get used to. I just hope everyone will give it a little time to achieve an equalibrium.

[brianel027]

That's what I'm hoping for too Marty. And this hobby is too much fun and these trains so special to all involved for us to not let it happen!

[spankybird]

Hi All,

I just wanted to add my two cents. I like Brian run 027 tube track. Some of my trains go back to 1947 from what my dad bought us kids.

Remember, all our trains are TOYS. Unless they are hauling real freight, going from city to city, paying your bills, they are TOYS, no matter how many rivets they have.

I love to run my trains and play with them like I did when I was 10 or 12 years old.

This is just my opinion of our Model Toy Trains.

tom

[Anonymous]

Hello. I've just stopped by to check this forum out. I vaguely remembered it was here, but I had never bothered to register. I subscribe to both magazines, and just re-upped with CTT after having had it lapse for a couple of years. As far as forums, I started out on the AOL Boards in the mid-90's, and tried rec.model.ralroads (which can be an "insult-a-thon") before settling in with the TTML and the OGR Forum. I also follow some of the Yahoo lists, relating to Hornby Trains, Marx Trains, Plasticville and similar "toy boards". I run TMCC and have some of the modern, scale stuff, but I am not a "hi-railer" to the extent of many others. Give me some pre-war tinplate and tin lithographed buildings, and I'm as happy as many others are with scale fidelity. I haven't decided what I'll do regarding the new tack of OGR, and I hope that perhaps some of its new policy may be reviewed before June 1. I'm just glad I've found another place to post, and hope that my posting time doesn't double. See ya! J. J.

[Anonymous]

Amtrak Jack,

I was not aware of any cliques over at OGR, and I know I always tried to answer a newcomer's question as did many others. In fact I would make a point of looking for threads with zero replies, and if possible, answering the question.

I don't think naming names of those you thought of as clique members is very productive or considerate.

Will

[Anonymous]

I think that I have resolved the two Chugman User Names? I see quite a few OGR members here. It will be interesting to see how well received some of the Hi-Railers are here? I started reading the topic warning the CTT members that the dreaded Hi-Railers were coming. I do not believe that is a very widespread feeling, but only time will tell. Most people are very flexible in this hobby and tolerant of each others views, I know that I am.

[Anonymous]

Another emigre from the OGR forum. I've gained a W, another Brian obviously beat me to it! Too soon to say goodbye to OGR, although the prospect of a fee certainly made me think about quitting
I must admit to being slightly disenchanted with the new management. Rather big brotherish in some ways, and I only managed a thousand or so posts over the years, which diminished in number recently due to this attitude.
What was worse, at least to me, was the reverent acknowledgement by some, of what came down from on high, without consideration for any other viewpoint.
The lamp oil debacle was a good instance, and the article in the magazine on the same subject finally did it.
Whatever one prefers is a personal decision be it good or bad, and should be left as such.
It is not surprising to see so many move on, and whether this will influence OGR remains to be seen.

[Phil1361]

Tony Vitabile:

If you were referring to my use of the word "clique" and this offended you I want to sincerely apologize. I did not mean it in a bad way. I simply meant eventually there would be small group of people left. I didn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that these people were bad people. I thought the word clique meant a small group of people. I'll have to look it up. :) Anyway I hope you accept my apologies.

Happy Railroading
Phil

[Anonymous]

I have been using the website to access the webcams and did not even realize there was a Forum here until the fee was announced on OGR and I paid attention to the alternatives that were discussed. The bickering and non-train topics have almost caused me to quit the OGR Forum several times. So the $18 for posting is not to my liking. I will view both Forums now and see which one I would like to participate.

[Anonymous]

What was the Lamp oil debacle? I asked once in a new thread, and it was promptly deleted. I searched and could not find the original thread, or what was the problem

[drjohn691]

My problem with OGR is the following:
Censorship of reasonable posts. For example, I made a kind mention of this forum in a reply on OGR and it was removed ASAP!
Infomercials by people with vested interests in companies disguised as "reviews". Guess what, always glowingly positive. I liked the organization better under the previous owner. Friendly attitude is gone.

[Anonymous]

Little John. The lamp oil thing was a long drawn out discussion on the virtues of lamp oil -v- smoke fluid. OGR management was vehemently against, closed the subject and published article decrying lamp oil in the magazine.
I hope this forum is more considerate.

[Anonymous]

PHil1361:

It's not so much the term as the tone that some have used, and it wasn't you in particular. But thanks for the apology, it is appreciated.

There seem to be a number of people who are truly upset at the prospect of having to pay for a service. As I've said in several posts on the OGR forum, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think the reactions of some are unreasonable, but that's just my opinion.

And the eventual status of the OGR forum is a long way from being decided.

Personally, I've found the OGR forum a friendly place and have had good times there. I'm sorry that some feel they have been treated unfairly, for whatever reason. A lot of the people I've met are nice & go out of their way to help others. And while I have found some people have a habbit of using a certain term to describe those that model in other scales, I personally don't agree. I just ignore those posts; disagreeing with them is not likely to change their behavior, anyway.

It would be best, I feel, for people to calm down & stop the name calling. We're all adults. I'm sure we can all act like adults, too.

Tony

[drjohn691]

Cancelled my OGR subscription today. It's not the money, it's the bad attitude I detest. I miss when Myron owned the magazine. Much better time.

[Anonymous]

Dr John, when you mentioned people with vested interests disguised as reviews. Wouldnt be talking about toy trains 1 would ya??

[Bluecometk]

Hello, Im just checking in to see how this is all unfolding. I have been a lurker on both this forum and the OGR forum for some time now. This is going to be interesting.

Bluecometk.

[Anonymous]

Hi. Just stopped by to say I am new to this forum, but not the magazine. I only occasionaly posted on the OGR site, and will probably do the same here now. I'm not going to pay the freight over there since I only had a little over 100 posts in 3 years. Hopefully, this board will be a great place to lurk and learn. (G)

[Anonymous]

Hi Folks
Another defector

[Anonymous]

Howdy y'all, the rebel just advanced northwestward from Ohio to Wisconsin.

[Anonymous]

Long live CTT!

Thanks for welcoming us here.

Us OGR refugees, will need a a little time to get used to things in this corner of the net, but we're grateful and ready to contribute.

[Anonymous]

I'm ready to let this whole thing go. But I am just wondering why Rich says there is no market for ads? This place is crawing with ads.

Maybe the rates are miniscule, I don't know.

Anyway now I have to check 4 O gauge forums. I need a life.[xx(]

[RI Jim]

Hey Guys, I'm yet another refugee. Glad to see a lot of familiar names over here. I was known as Jim S over on the OGR forum. IMHO, I wouldn't count the OGR forum out quite yet as I am taking a wait and see approach. The idea of paying a few bucks a year to use the OGR forum doesn't bother me so much as the fact the I've been an OGR subscriber for over 15 years and now I'm expected to pay for somehting I feel I should be getting as part of the subscription price. Just my two cents. Oh by the way, I've also subscribed to CTT from the very first issue and enjoy both magazines very much.

[spodwo]

No place for ads on the other site? This site represents how many magazines? Kalmbach is a LOT bigger than one magazine...the cost of this site is defrayed by several magazines not just one. You focus on this being CTT - it is Kalmbach and a much bigger outfit.

[Anonymous]

I'm with RI Jim. I find it very interesting and not just a little short sighted that OGR apparently sees little, if any, value add from the forum to its magazine business. Despite the seemingly endless opportunities the forum presents to the magazine......Management has dictated the forum must pay its own way via fees on top of the annual subscription price. OGR charges 39 bucks and change for 7 issues a year. Add on the 18 dollar fee for the forum and you're shelling out just over 57 bucks a year for ogr alone. Everyone has to set their own walk away point and that crossed the line with me. I'm out. Glad to be a member here. Look forward to many enjoyable hours of talking about trains. John Harding

[Anonymous]

Hello Neil Besougloff and the group. This is my first posting so I guess that I am board too. And as a non-subscriber due to family budget restrictions (I wi***o buy my wife a year of People magazine before I buy for myself) I can certainly hope that in the next few years I will be able to buy into a O scale magazine. I have red both "that other magazine" and CTT (back issues) and I have a preference for CTT. Needless to say that I am quite upset at the $18 bording fee at "that other magazine's" forum, and I like the attitude of the CTT crew. My only request is to keep this forum free, and don't spend money on new bells and whistles to run the forum operating fees up too high that it no longer fall under the line item ... general operating budget. I hope to have much happiness at this forum.

[Anonymous]

While I have participated in both forums CTT will be my first and only choice. This forum is as good as any other model RR forum and better than most.
I absolutely refuse to pay OGR a single cent for posting good information on structure building and for sharing my work with others. In essence, many members as myself are providing free articles for the OGR forum and they are being asked to pay for this? Of course there is the occasional question but most of the time this has been answered by another forum member.
I guess OGR feels that members should pay for helping other members and for reading their advertising. Just watch the subscription rate and forum membership increase over here come June. While I have nothing negative to say about the competitive magazines format and content, I will say that charging for a forum membership will cost OGR dearly. IMO, a penny wise and dollar foolish move..

[Anonymous]

Be warned, the following is mostly speculation on my part. I in no way speak for OGR.

I wouldn't say that the OGR management doesn't see value added to the magazine from the forum. Rich Melvin's comment was that the subscriber database & the forum user database are currently incompatible. Now, I don't believe that Rich is an IT guy, and no one has probably offered to find or figured out a way to get the two databases set up so they can interchange data.

That's not to say that if they find a way the OGR staff won't give subscribers a break.

Here's a fact:

As a result of a user suggestion, they've created a "Suggestion Box" forum where people can comment about the forum & the pricing fees. Lots of alternative ideas for the pricing structure, such as free text posting & pay for other services, have been suggested. The OGR management has indicated they're listening.

They haven't promised anything, but at least they're listening. And who knows? Maybe they'll be changing the payment structure.

Tony

[FJ and G]

Wow, the list of defectors from OGR to CTT keeps getting longer. Sad for OGR but that's what happens when you shoot the pooch.

[Anonymous]

I for one will not go back no matter what they do. Seems like they change their minds on a weekly basis over there as to how they want to run the forum. Some of their "senior" members had some pretty nasty things to say about those of us who left. A pity really, I will have nothing to do with their magazine or forum from now on!

[FJ and G]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Razoo. That was one senior (or is it senile) moment too many for me. Anyway, i kinda like it here. Seems like a friendly place.

Dave Vergun

[Anonymous]

WOW, I'm the ONLY Member on board and I leave it on all the time anyway because I'm on Broadband and can switch Instantaniuosly between sites.

[Anonymous]

I was tired of the censorship by Melvin & Co. anyway; they just gave me 18 more reasons to leave;

Things I shared for FREE on the OGR forum

1) a modification to LIFT Bridge so that ALL cars could fit under;
2) pit mounted Lionel turntable;
3) Modified Pitt-Mark Catenary system using Pittman poles and Marklin wire catenary (before MTH botched the idea)
4) Modified Cloud stencils and how to use them with the right sky color;
5) Clearance Car that also showed track radius;
6) Uses of Lionels circuit breakers with MTH TIU;
7) creating custom realistic roadways with simple cardboard using graphic tapes to as a mask to make roadway lines;
8) sidewalks
9) cheap but realistic chain-link fencing using mesh from the grocery store
packaging;
10) making geezer bridges (photo layout not shared yet)
and many more...


And I have more that will never be seen in the OGR forum..


Alan

[Anonymous]

This is my third forum membership. I have belonged to OGR for two years and loved every minute of it.

I believe the pendulum has been given a hard jerk to the left and, in the next two and a half months, will return slowly towards the center, but maybe not all the way. There have been some excellent suggestions posted over there, suggestions that are being considered by the management. They are intelligent people and, I sincerely hope, can see the disaster that their present course is leading them towards.

I can afford the money, but cannot see paying for just a few posts a month. Time will tell. I will not act in anger or haste. A lot of things can happen in 10 weeks.

In the mean time, let's all just enjoy running trains and let the dust settle where it might. Maybe things are not as bad as they seem.

I enjoy both magazines. I will not cancel one in spite and loose the enjoyment it brings to me.

Tony, from the Lorton Auto Train area.

[Anonymous]

I'm here too! No $18.00 forums for me! Looks like we're gonna have one big party![:D]

Joe

[cwhtrains]

I registered here as well. What I find interesting is that the OGR site is free until June 1st, yet if you signed up now your membership was good only for one year from your payment date, so why are all those people signing up now, rather then wait until June?

As for me, I was tired of the selective censorship and the grand adulation of selected people or companies to the detriment of other people or companies.

[nblum]

CWH,

As you know from prior contact :) I agree with you that some very peculiar restrictions were placed upon what could be discussed and what not on the OGRR Forum. For example, when MTH recently sent threatening letters to various HO and N gauge manufacturers of DCC equipment, as well as O gauge three rail firms, all discussion of that major event was squelched on the OGRR Forum ,but discussions took place here on the CTT Forum.

Likewise discussion of the recent MTH suit against Broadway Limited and QSI was verboten on the OGRR Forum, while CTT actually had a brief article noting the event. At least CTT's practicing journalism by covering some of the biggest news in the industry, even if they have to write cautiously since all these companies are advertisers.

There are some other eyebrow raising events I hear about through the grapevine that will no doubt see the light of day eventually. At least these events and actions ultimately will be discussed here as appropriate. This may be a pivotal moment in the history of the hobby and the industry, and it seems bizarre and counter productive if the consumers who pay everyone's salary, at least indirectly, cannot discuss the issues.

[Anonymous]

Too much censorship over on OGR. Say anything negative about MTH and you're banished to you know where.

[Anonymous]

censorship ???

call it what it was DONT TREAD ON OGR's ADVERTISERS

I'm sure that CTT isn't any less tolerant..LOL

But if you really want to bug Rich Melvin and his gang...

Boycott OGR's advertisers!!!... only the bad ones of course!

Editorial should not control the business office or the other way around! This is true of any respectable magazine or newspaper not so with OGR

Alan

[Anonymous]

They say ads don't work and the only ads that I ever saw at OGR were for hundreds of feet of wiring. You're right Rich, we don't want 300 feet of wiring. The few that still need wiring will just buy it anywhere locally.

Show us an ad by Lionel, MTH, Williams, Atlas, or by any reputable mail order house offering some specials and we'll be clicking and buying.

Rich says that the databases of subscribers and that of the forum live separately. Here's a quick service for your subscribers: send them an email, ask them what their forum name is, give them a password and let them use the forum. Magazine subscribers often commit to OGR for multiple years and this is the way you pay them back? The forums have always been free and they should always remain free. There are a lot of people over at the OGR forum that rewarded OGR for the forum by subscribing to the magazine. Guess what? Many of them will now thank CTT by subscribing to their magazine instead.

The only good thing about the OGR forum is the members. If anybody should get the $18 a year it's the members. After all the experienced members are the ones that help the other ones. Rich just wants to collect on it.

As soon as all of the experienced members come over to CTT, will OGR have anything to offer?

[Anonymous]

nblum,

You're right about the censorship problem at OGR. It's also applied selectively; I've been hit with it myself, only to see a similar post by someone else stay up. The tone of the site is a lot like radio back in the "Freedom of Information" days, prior to 1988. Controversy had to be avoided at all costs in those days, and it appears that the same attitude prevails at OGR. I think this bothers me as much as, if not more than, the fee.

[Anonymous]

Well, this is a nice party. I'll pay the fee over there on May 30. NOTHINGS FREE. I've made some freinds over there. Problem is, I'm not interested in posting layout pictures, chat rooms, avatars(and shrinking thereof). No time. Probably no time for 2 forums either. But I got to thinking about all the knowledge I've gained. Talk to an O gauger who isn't Forumized and you'll see what I mean. I've long given up getting mad and canceling subscriptions and telling people off because we disagree. Rich rules the place over there. I've been on other unregulated forums where folks post in other peoples names, and generally post just to cause trouble. O well, we'll all sit back and watch things unfold. Chuck

[Anonymous]

I started this thread and oh, how I wish i could end it.

[Anonymous]

Talk about censorship! Rich just deleated the thread in his suggestion box that says the CTT forum is growing with former OGR members. I guess Rich doesn't want your friends to know where to find you. [X-)]

[Anonymous]

Joe, you're not correct. There are three threads there, including the one you started. One about how "busy" (the poster's sarcasm) it was over here went over the flame line, and it is indeed gone.

Leave it be, guys. Enjoy this place as long as it's free.

[drjohn691]

Bull,
I posted a nice polite thread reply about how the answer to a question could be found on this forum. Bang, he singled it out and deleted it. That is the TRUTH and a FACT! WRONG! Can you imagine Jim Weaver over at Atlas O being that bold as to do that. NEVER. They have integrity.
Removed the OGR links from my computer and called Friday to cancel my subscription. Voting with my wallet fellows.
Let' s just enjoy the CTT forum. A nice bunch of people and a nice magazine. Support them in any way you can.

[Anonymous]

Rick H.

You're way off base! Threads and posts have been deleted right and left. What are the paying customers going to say when they get their threads and posts deleted????

[Anonymous]

Rick, Rich has been deleated any reference to this Forum and that many OGR members can be found there. Let's try a little experiment. I'll post something about the growing number of OGR Forum members here on CTT and let's see how long it lasts.

[drjohn691]

It will be gone within the hour. Mine was.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Wow guys, that is really sad that Rich feels so threatened by this forum as to delete all references to it. Maybe he will learn something from all of this. Nothing EVER gets deleted here!!! Even if Rich was to post it.[swg]

[Anonymous]

OK, here's my last post on this topic, for what that's worth.

There is a thread over there called "where are you going to" by cbojanower that was posted Saturday and has 14 replies as of this morning (some of which are "so run away, you babies!" replies).

I realize that some threads about this have been deleted. The thing is, they all say the same thing. How many thread does any forum (including this one) need about the same subject?

Whatever. I'm just here to learn and to help people when I can. I hope we can all drop this debate.

P.S. "Polska", not only were your threads there deleted, but you hold the all-time record for most having the most different accounts deleted, and bragged about it. Try posting about toy trains, you might have better luck here.

[cbojanower]

I'm actually pleasently surprised it has stayed up this long, (My post about where are you going to) it was not meant to be an affront to anyone but a few have seem to have taken it that way.

But so far I do like some of the sites (inc this one) that I have been referred to.

[CSXJOE]

My opinion is that the OGR Forum takes up a lot of Rich's time to moderate. By charging the $18.00, enough members will leave making the forum almost worthless. Now Rich can shut it down gracefully and save face without having to pull the plug and tick everyone off.

[Anonymous]

I too am from the "other-side." It looks like Bob Marley's words may be appropriate, "exodus movement of the people." I am also on the fence with respect to paying $ 18.00 for a forum membership. I look at it as an expensive proposition:
I am paying how much for the subscription $ 32.00? If I add the fee that's a wooping $50.00. hmmmmm.[?]

[Anonymous]

I'm not in agreement with OGR Website RIP. It's a good Forum and has certainly earned a place for itself on the Internet. However, I'm of the opinion that any cost to run-operate-maintain their Forum should be borne by OGR and not from the Forum membership. Forum costs are simply the costs of OGR doing business. Especially since the Forum is really self centered around OGR and actually serves as an advertising "hook" to attract more subscribers.

It's my opinion that their Forum has suffered in part because many of the long time Forum members are so emotionally attached to the Forum and have drank the kool-aid for so long that they have become lobotomized zombies, marching in lock-step with one another, coming down hard on anyone who have contrarian views. To me this projects an image of an "Old Boys Club." and has an intimidating effect on newcomers.

Another annoying distraction is that when ever a member of management posts a thread the lobotomized zombies quickly begin posting and genuflecting in unison to reinforce the thread.

Arbitrarily applied censorship is also a big turn off. Having one's thoughtful threads deleted just because the Forum is not a Democracy just won't work in todays world.

Add to the above an $18 membership fee to become an active member just adds another ingredient into their recipe for disaster.

This is a great Forum as is the Atlas Forum; you are invited to visit ModelTrainJournal.com it also hosts an non-affiliated free 3-rail o-gauge forum that you may enjoy becoming part of.

http://www.modeltrainjournal.com/phpBB2/

[FJ and G]

Well said, Bill, I post occasionally on your forum as well and can vouch for it being a good place to visit with a lot of freedoms.

Dave Vergun

[Anonymous]

That was TERRIBLE how the OGR form treated Marty Donaldson last night. Shame!

[Anonymous]

Bill, my feelings exactly. I could almost stomach the attitude over there when it was free, but paying 18 bucks on top of the 39 dollars and change for the magazine....was just more than I could take. John Harding .

[Phil1361]

A couple of people on this thread have mentioned ads. Here is Mr.Melivins take on ads copied directly from OGR:

____________________________________________________________________
"There is no market for ads on this forum or almost anywhere else on the web for that matter. The bloom is long gone off that internet rose. It is only the MEGA-sites that can make any money selling ads.

The problem is the response rates, or should I say the LACK of response. In a direct snail-mail campaign, response rates of 1.5% are considered OK and 2% is terrific! Those percentages reflect actual SALES from the mailing involved. Internet ads on sites like ours generate response rates in the .01% range for click-throughs. That means that .01% of visitors will click on the ad to look at the offer. Of those, only a tiny fraction of a percent of people who click-through will actually BUY something. In the early days of the web this kind of advertising worked because it was a novelty. It is no longer a novelty and in fact most people consider ads an intrusion on their browsing experience.

That's why the only ads you see here are our own. We put them up to expose some of our products to web visitors, but actual sales as a direct result of those ads is virtually non-existent.

Rich Melvin, Publisher
O Gauge Railroading magazine"
___________________________________________________________________

I personally don't buy it. How does he know if someone sees an ad and picks up the phone or the next chance he gets goes down to the local hobby shop and buys the item?

And why wouldn't Lionel, Atlas, MTH and Weaver and the smaller companies NOT want to advertise there? A lot of people will still see the ads! Does every ad have to make a direct sale to be successful?

For the people who wanted this thread to die I apologize.

[Anonymous]

Look $18 is not alot. But I won't pay to post my FREE advice to benefit Rich's magazine of which I have no stake.

But I will post my new ideas, thoughts gizmos, modification, advice here.


I lurked there and someone was looking for ideas on making clouds;
I have a stencil solution that I modified from an article in Mod RR that I have used on numerious layouts and even my son's bedroom, but I'll be "darned" if I'll post help there!!!

pay your $18 but you won't get me.

Alan

[Anonymous]

Alan,

No one wants what you call "advise"

Maybe you can ask beofre you post forum members pictures without there consent.

[Anonymous]

Before anyone throws stuff at me...please read the WHOLE rant?

Glad to see that a few others are "voting with their wallets". I thought I
was the only one for a while.

I guess the next thing that OGR will require will be for an existing forum
member to "sponsor" a new applicant and then a "committee" will be
formed to investigate and vote on the applicant. Sort of like an "Internet
Country Club"?

In all fairness, It seems that what was once an enjoyable past-time of
children and some adults (Remember those old toy train catalogs?) has
now become an Industrial Complex run by elitist marketers who are more
interested in making obscene profits by minting "collectors' editions" than
promoting the hobby. How on earth can you expect a child to become inter-
ested in a "hobby" that costs in the thousands of dollars-per-item and is
made up of "valuable collectors' items" that they can't play with for fear of
breakage?

At least a few companies like K-Line and ,yeah, even MTH ofer some items
that are affordable to youngsters (and oldsters who aren't members of the
Fortune 500). Scale modelling is a natural outgrowth of playing with toy
trains and is a wonderfull adult pasttime, but the hobby as a whole will only
continue if it is attractive and affordable to young people and newbies who
are still working to pay for such frills as food, shelter, utilities, medical, etc.

By the same token, once the newbies have gone and committed their $$$
to the hobby, they should be shown some respect by those already in it.
Many new posters on the OGR site have been ridiculed, sneered at, and
just plain ignored because they didn't choose to go into hock for the latest
and greatest techno-gadget, or their locos lack 0.275 rivets, or because
they run their father's trains on the original tubular track.

I have found that CTT, the magazine, treats ALL of the hobby pretty much
equally. They have over the years given honest evaluations of equipment
and methods of miniature train operation, construction, maintenance, and
products on the market. This is what is needed to keep the hobby alive!
The CTT site seems to reflect the same ideals, whereas the OGR site
was more of a "look at me" site, an "I know more stuff than you" site, and
a mutual-admiration-society for certain suppliers, advertisers, and manu-
facturers. Don't believe so? Try posting a differing opinion on that site and
see how long it stays up.

There are some posters over there that post with such smugness and such
volume that one wonders, a) if they truly have any train layouts because they
spend such gawd-awful amounts of time on the 'Net posting , b) if they are
members of OGR magazine's staff posting material for editorial purposes,
or c) if they are, indeed, manufacturers or their staff posting to use the "Net as
another marketing tool.

It seems that sometime in the 1980's toys and other childhood items ceased
being toys and common everyday things and suddenly became "rare" "valuable"
"collectors' editions" that should only be purchased for their "investment potential"
or their "correctness in representing the prototype".

Well, folks, NOT AT MY PLACE! At my house it's still a hobby! You can RUN my
381E dragging a long freight over a metal bridge and through PreWar #223
switches and over #20 and #20X diamonds! You can also run my #318 with
a set of #300-series passenger cars that someone had (very nicely) made into
a "Baby Blue Comet" set. You can go over to my O Gauge layout and run an
original #256 dragging a set of #700-series passenger cars. Or even an ALL
ORIGINAL Ives #3252 (even original wiring and rollers) pulling a set of #60-
series passenger cars! These were meant to be run! To be PLAYED with!
To be ENJOYED! Not bought/sold for their "Value". Wanna run my #763 and
it's #2600-series "Madison" cars. Yeah, I know, it isn't "truly scale"! I guess
I can't hang with the "real train guys".

But ya know what? I'M HAVING FUN! We ALL need to lighten up, be friendlier,
promote the HOBBY (NOT the "Commerce/Market") and get along!

Leave the snobs and elitists over on the other site, stop griping, start helping
each other and LET'S RUN THOSE TRAINS! Old Josh made 'em to be RUN!

Sorry about all the ranting...I'll get back in my box now.

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Oh by the way...Before anyone smacks me and says that I'm "anti-scale"
or something to that effect. I want to mention that I'm an assistant curator
to a museum exhibit that incorporates a 1000+ sq.ft. HO layout that is an
exact representation of the region that I live in right down to using the
EXACT PAINT (from the SAME CAN) on our scale miniature buildings that
is on the real ones. Equipment has been reproduced from original blue-
prints of locos, rolling stock, buildings, etc. Tech support is in the form of
many original (though fast decreasing in number) inhabitants of the area.
I enjoy this facet of the hobby equally as well as the "toy" part. I also credit
my interest in the scale end as beginning with the toys of my youth.

[Anonymous]

I don't believe that we should use this forum only as a vehicle to criticize another competitive magazines forum. If you don't like their new policy ( and I certainly don't ) just do as I intend to do, leave and -post here on CTT. They won't get a plum nickel of my money for my contributions. Problem solved. CTT's now the one!!

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to say I'm still on the fence about the OGR site[%-)] but I agree with many of you that this could be the end of it with the charge[xx(].I think much new blood that the hobby so desperatly needs will be turned away because of that deal[:(].I think its a great forum and i am a registered member over there but I really think alot members there will see a downturn after june 1 but I could be wrong.I belive in strengthening the hobby by promoting it like for example a couple of months ago I had back surgery and the week before the surgery I stoped by to see my old physical therapist.I got to talking with her secretary and low and behold her father had given her son his old lionel train set [:0]but the transformer was no good and they had not set up the trains[:(].Well yesterday my 6 yr old daughter and I were out working on the layout and came across one of her old set boxes and in it was a brand new 40 or 50 watt trans former unused so we went down there and dropped it off [:)]to her she almost went into tears she wanted to pay us for it but we would have none of that![^]To me thats premoting the hobby now her son can get his grandfathers train up and running and thats great [:p]heck my daughter has already started saving to give her as yet unborn cousin her first lionel set for just being her cousin[angel].But I really think the charge will hurt more than help.[V]

[Anonymous]

I agree with ChesBchRy thes so called collectors item's were ment to be played with not stuck behind glass and to many of us have forgoten that if you want to look at stuff behind glass go to the stinkin museum!I've got a fwe peices that are not as old or as valuable as others would still rate collectability but they run around our layout when ever we want and oh yea those hot wheels I used to collect that are still in the package untouched and untarnished and numbered in the hundreds.Well the ones I didnt give to the Marines for toys for tots are on our layout and we don't care if it looks goofy or not.[;)]

Now I'll get back on my Caboose and Hi ball! [:p]

[Anonymous]

Yes I think the OGR plan is to shut the forum down by forcing us to pay $18. They don't want to bother with it. Everyone will soon come here.

pax[:)]

[Anonymous]

get lost you twinkie monster

[Anonymous]

Chrissie.

Go play with your toys boy.