Toy Train Room Lighting

[Mickey D's]

I am in the process of redoing my train room. I want to make sure I use the proper lighting. I know fluorescent lighting is not good and will fade the paint on my trains. Any suggestions on what would be the best lighting?

[johnandjulie13]

Hello Mickey:

First off, .  Glad to have you aboard.

I have my layout in an unfinished basement and have been dealing with lighting issues myself.  I recently added a couple of flourescent fixtures and they really improved the lighting.  Previously I was using incandescent and halogen.  Without the flourescent fixtures, the lumen output was insufficient and the coloring was too yellow.  I would like to know how susceptible to damage the trains are from flourescent light.  What will happen when incandescents can no longer be purchased?

I would also like to hear some suggestions.

Regards,

John

[envfocus]

First, welcome to the forum.  You are not alone on this question.  At the end of this, I've placed a link to an earlier thread discussing this.  For me, I use ceiling mounted flourescent bulbs to light up my table layout.   In my opinion, the floursescent bulb will only be a problem if you expose your train all day to a bulb that's within a foot or two of your train.  Its no different than leaving your train out in the sun everyday.  It will fade over time.  So, my train room is dark unless I'm in there running them.  The only time I think this really should be a concern is for ceiling mounted layouts; otherwise, I don't consider it a problem under normal conditions.  Here is the link to an earlier thread.

Lighting

[johnandjulie13]

Hello Envfocus:

Thank you for the link.  I missed that thread first time through.  After reading it (and the supplied links) I am much less worried about UV damage from my flourescents.  However, if I were ever to make a display case for my trains, they would not be illuminated by flourescent lights.

Regards,

John

[Pete in W'brg]

My previous (windowless) train room used flourescent lighting for years. My  postwar Lionel collection was displayed on floor to ceiling shelving.  Neither the trains nor the 500+ sqft layout suffered any color degradation.

Just my experience.

[Mickey D's]

Thanks for the information on the floursecent lighting. If I find a better form of lighting I will let you know.

 

Thanks Again,

 Mike

[Mickey D's]

Hi,

 

I think floursecent lighting gives off the best light. i just don't want to ruin my trains. Thanks for your information.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[garyseven]

I know many people love them or hate them, but I am a big fan of incandescent Reveal bulbs. Nice white light with a touch of blue.

http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/products/reveal_main.htm

[ChiefEagles]

Might want to try these from Lowes.  They work great.

Did not cost a lot and are minis so no heat.

[tfcii]

Has anyone had the opportunity to ask a physicist how florescent lighting might damage the paint of toy models?  Personally, I cannot think of any way that this could happen unless the models were too close to the lights and the heat from the lights could cause damage.  But I cannot see how it would be otherwise possible for damage to occur.  Any input is appreciated.  I have had florescent lighting above my layout for 12 years and I don't know of any damage to the models.

[marxalot]

Welcome tfcii. If you have a train layout under fluorescent light for 12 years and do not see any damage then we don't need no stinkin' physicist do we? Just kidding. Fluorescent lamps produce more ultra violet light than incandescents. Now whether that will ever fade anything depends on just what is exposed to it and for how long. From what has been posted previously it doesn't appear that trains or the building have been affected. Let's remember these lamps are not on 24/7 too. I have noticed some fading of photographic backgrouds but they might have faded with just normal exposure to any light source. There are filters out there if you want to spend the time & money to install. There is a lot of information on the web about the affects of fluorescent lighting on different materials. We wouldn't want the Mona Lisa sitting under a bare lamps strip light! But a Marx 333? Blast away old lamp blast away.

later..................

 

[traindaddy1]

Hi!  Just a question (maybe I missed it): Is your "train room" a dedicated room or is it a multi-purpose room --like an unused bedroom--that you are using as your train room? 

Here's my 

I would think that the choice of lighting would coincide with the enviornmental ultimate usage of the room. There has certainly been much written about flourescent lighting and I am no expert on the subject but, unless the light is hanging directly over the layout like my old-time pool table, I would not be too concerned.  I would guess that consideration should be given to the actual amount of time the lights are on while running the trains and the availability of light from other sources like a floor lamp or natural light through a window.  

I have street lights on my layout and there are lights in my buildings.  For me, too bright lights above and around the layout, takes away from my layout lighting effects. 

and all the best!

[MarkAngler]

My experiences with normal ceiling-mounted fluorescent lights is that they fade photographs, I don't know about trains.  I am in the early stages of making a train room/office and based on my experience, I was not going to use fluorescent lights.  Based on what I'm reading here, maybe that is an unnecessary precaution.

 

 

[phillyreading]

You can buy shop light fluorenscent fixtures and use soft cool white F40CW bulbs or you can use track lighting with the new fluorenscent screw-in bulbs. If there is a window in the room you may not need as much lighting for whole room.

Lee F.

[edw]

If you have a train layout under fluorescent light for 12 years and do not see any damage then we don't need no stinkin' physicist do we? 

Hey, as a physicist, I resemble that remark!

As others have already pointed out, the degree of damage fluorescent lighting can cause depends on several variables, such as, the intensity of the light source, (how close it is to the trains), and the total exposure time to the light source. It also depends to a great extent, on the molecular formulation of the paint or plastic used in the trains.

Fluorescent lighting emits UV radiation which is at the left end of the visible light band. And, as you move farther to the left on the electromagnetic spectrum, the frequency of the radiation increases.

Having a higher frequency means that fluorescent light, in general, excites the surface molecules of the paint and plastic to a greater degree than a lower frequency incandescent light would. This, in turn, can accelerate the chemical reactions that result in oxidation and fading.  

As you say, noticeable fading of paper and photographs can occur even when using household fluorescent lighting. And, there is no doubt that the same physical process described above is also at work on our trains. However, that does not mean that the consequences will necessarily be the same, since the degree of damage is also a function of the strength of the molecular bonds in the material. And to complicate things even further, since the chemical formulation of the paints and plastics has changed over the decades, the effect of UV exposure will not necessarily be uniform across the board, and can even vary from car to car.

Since, everyone's layout, lighting, and degree of exposure are different, anecdotal accounts that some have used fluorescent lighting for many years without noticing any damage are not surprising. On the other hand, it may be a case of that well known phenomenon where we tend not to notice subtle changes that accumulate slowly over time. (I swear my face hasn't changed a bit in the last thirty years).

Edit: I realized after posting, that my characterization of higher frequency being to the left of the electromagnetic spectrum may be opposite to how many view it. My designation is taken from an old chart I've used for many years. To clarify: when moving from the infrared toward ultraviolet, the frequency of the radiation "increases".

[Jumijo]

Our train room has very poor lighting. I'd like to install some track lighting, so we can position the lights to highlight different areas of the layout.

Jim 

[phillyreading]

Jim,

When you add tract lighting you can use wiremold(a form of conduit, more expensive than regular conduit but nicer)and fasten it to the walls or ceiling, looks better that pvc or emt conduit for indoor use only. If you do use wiremold make sure to measure correctly because a small section, about half inch, goes into the box.

Lee F.

[RockIsland52]

Lee,

In my basement I used a product like you describe called Romex (sp?) cable.  Unlike BX or conduit, it is wire run through a larger plastic sheath.  Very flexible and can be tucked up into rafters and other inconspicuous places easily, out of sight.

Jack

[cooltech]

My train room had, (going to be renovated), two sets of flourescent, two bulbs each, one set directly over the layout, about 4' above, for about 9yrs. I never noticed discloration on any trains. Of course sets varied form time to time but the army transport set was practically a mainstay. Also, You can look into 'natural' light flourescent bulbs, ( As a dental lab technician I used these to produce as natural as possible proper lighting for dental prothesis. This helped with color coordination of teeth). If I remember correctly, harmful uv waves were not a factor and the bonus is they don't fatigue your eyes! Hope this is helpful.

As mentioned prev., The lights are on only when I'm using the sets.

cooltech

 

[Jumijo]

We currently have natural light bulbs in the train room. The bulbs are blueish in color and remove the yellowness associated with regular bulbs from photos taken down there.

Jim 

[lionelsoni]

Jack, Romex is the now-bankrupt Rome Cable Corporation's brand of nonmetallic-sheathed cable, which is widely used for residential wiring.

This must be supported at most every 4 1/2 feet and within 1 foot of a box.  Any hole in a stud or joist that it passes through must be at least 1 1/4 inches from the surface.  Bends cannot have a radius sharper than 5 times the cable diameter.

 

[RockIsland52]

Thanks, Bob.  When I lived in Chicago proper, the building code required BX or conduit for residential wiring.  Romex cable was a no no.  I could never figure out why.  Is it the concept that insulated wire sheathed in metal was a safer approach from a fire safety perspective?

Romex was legal in Ohio when I lived there and it is legal in MA.  Plastic electrical boxes are legal in MA too, not in Chicago.

Perhaps the politicians decided Mrs. O'Leary's cow might have chewed through the Romex in the barn, starting the Great Chicago Fire.

Jack 

[robscaboose]

When I built my house in Terre Haute IN, several years ago, we put over 3,000 ft of Romex in the house.  But the code will not allow for Romex to be put in condut as it is sufficently protected & placing it in condut could cause an excessive build up of heat.

Rob 

 

[johnandjulie13]

Perhaps the politicians decided Mrs. O'Leary's cow might have chewed through the Romex in the barn, starting the Great Chicago Fire.

Jack 

Just about every major building code requirement in Chicago (and by extension, the rest of Illinois) can be attributed to the influence of trade unions.  The power and influence construction unions have in Illinois would be very surprising to contractors in most other parts of the country.

Regards,

John

[phillyreading]

Lee,

In my basement I used a product like you describe called Romex (sp?) cable.  Unlike BX or conduit, it is wire run through a larger plastic sheath.  Very flexible and can be tucked up into rafters and other inconspicuous places easily, out of sight.

Jack

Jack,

What you described used to be called NM cable or nonmetallic sheathed cable back in the 1970's, also good for in wall or actic use according to NEC standards. Also down here in Florida can not use romex or NM cable inside conduit it is against local building code, why not-I don't know.

I mentioned wiremold because it is acceptable to local codes and looks better than wire hanging down the wall.

Lee F.

[marxalot]

Depending on exactly what your local codes allows you can install "Romex" in conduit. Below is the 2005 National Electrical Code requirements on this matter. The 2008 NEC has some more changes but they do not prevent putting NM cable in a conduit. Gad zooks! This is sounding a bit like work!

Article 334 Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable: Types NM, NMC, and NMS

34.15 Exposed Work.
In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
(A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.
(B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.
Where Type NMC cable is installed in shallow chases in masonry, concrete, or adobe, the cable shall be protected against nails or screws by a steel plate at least 1.59 mm ( in.) thick and covered with plaster, adobe, or similar finish.
(C) In Unfinished Basements. Where cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements, it shall be permissible to secure cables not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG conductors directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running boards. NM cable used on a wall of an unfinished basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed conduit or tubing. Conduit or tubing shall utilize a nonmetallic bushing or adapter at the point the cable enters the raceway. Metal conduit and tubings and metal outlet boxes shall be grounded.

[RockIsland52]

Marxalot,

If I had read the National Electric Code requirements first, I would have put away my tools, opened a beer, and called a licensed electrician.

Seriously, I wouldn't have tackled the wiring myself without expert guidance which a close friend provided who took the time to explain not only what to do but why.  He drew the line at the plastic boxes which he personally thought were an unnecessary fire risk.

Every time I flip those light switches, I am still amazed the lights go on!

Thanks for the info.

Jack  

[ChiefEagles]

Hey Rock, up where you live, lights coming on is amazing.

[lionelbob]

I live in N/E Philadelphia, near one of the oldest Lionel Service Center's, S&H Hardware.  The store has everything you need when all other hardware suppliers don't.  He also sells lots of Lionel stuff, and you can't fail to notice that the MIB orange and blue boxes stored on the top shelf, have been turned to a pale pinkish color on the side facing the fluorescent fixture.   So if anything, don't store your boxes too close to fluorescent light.

If it helps, I have a 48" fluorescent fixture over my layout.  Although the contents of the board itself changes, the static display shelves do not.  I can't see any changes to any of our collection, Pre, Post and Modern.

[johnandjulie13]

Hello Lionebob:

Thanks for the feedback.  As Bob Nelson indicated, the farther away the object is from the lightsource, the less UV exposure it will get.  Funny to hear about the Lionel Boxes, I wonder how the car inside is making out?

Regards,

John