Dave Farquhar wrote: Ozzy, don't let him get to you. About the only time LS51Heli ever posts here is to stir up trouble. Although he complains about other people being cranky old uneducated people, he appears to be the crankiest of them all, and his inability to properly use contractions or apostrophes suggests that he isn't as well-educated as he wants people to think either, given that we have lots of people on this forum still in high school who have a far better mastery of the language than he does.
Ozzy, don't let him get to you. About the only time LS51Heli ever posts here is to stir up trouble. Although he complains about other people being cranky old uneducated people, he appears to be the crankiest of them all, and his inability to properly use contractions or apostrophes suggests that he isn't as well-educated as he wants people to think either, given that we have lots of people on this forum still in high school who have a far better mastery of the language than he does.
Well said, Dave.
Regards,
John
Honestly I don't care if the engine is a repro, beaten up, or is now losing value. If I get statisfaction running or displaying it, thats what counts.
Alex
Ogaugeoverlord wrote:Methinks Mr. LS1Heli needs to work on his interpersonal communication skills. You don't need to attack people, simply because you disagree with them, or they disagree with you.This thread is a good example of how a good discussion topic can get messed when people fall into their "My way or the highway" mode.
Well, ozzy certainly did a good job of dishing out on Lionel for doing reproductions of prewar. If you're going to dish it out, be prepared to take it.
Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!
Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.
3railguy wrote: Ogaugeoverlord wrote:Methinks Mr. LS1Heli needs to work on his interpersonal communication skills. You don't need to attack people, simply because you disagree with them, or they disagree with you.This thread is a good example of how a good discussion topic can get messed when people fall into their "My way or the highway" mode.Well, ozzy certainly did a good job of dishing out on Lionel for doing reproductions of prewar. If you're going to dish it out, be prepared to take it.
no, i gave my opinon , i just did not beat around the bush about it.
In my opinion, the original post did come on rather strongly with statements such as ". all because lionel cant come up with any new idea's so they just reissue their own older stuff and put a big a** price tag on them."
Frankly, I still don't see the argument-MTH essentially built their whole business on reproducing prewar Lionel. Remember the Lionel Classics line? Those were all built by Mike Wolf, but sold under the Lionel name. After the big falling out with Lionel around 1990, prewar reproductions were basically the only things coming out of Mike's Train House.
Williams hasn't made any prewar that I know of, but the majority of their trains in production today are copies of postwar Lionel trains. The Golden Memories line makes darn near exact reproductions of postwar sets, and even goes so far as use the original Lionel catalog art in advertising them.
Frankly, I still don't see the issue.
Here's why:
1. Operators can get their chance to open a brand new, mint in box tinplate set that's never before been run without having to break the bank or destroy an historical artifact. Futhermore, operators can enjoy modern conveniences and trouble-free operation without the quirks of the originals. I love my original postwar, but it can sometimes be rather cantankerous. I can only imagine that prewar would be even worse.
2. Collectors are still going to pay premium prices for premium sets in top condition. No amount of reissues are going to change this, as reisssues will never be old.
So in other words, I personally feel that this thread was started with a bunch of unnecessary complaining. Yes, some of the responses have been a bit out of line, but then I also feel the same way about the tone of the original post.
here is some info for you lslheli ,
a quote from "the history of lionel"
" most of the major innovations came from companies that were already manufacturing toy trains at the time of Cowens entry into the world of toy trains."
so to make this simple for you to understand......... cowen copied his stuff from others....
Cowen did possess excellent marketing abilities..... thats why lionel is where its at today.
and do you want me to bring up the fact that lionel copied MTH, ,,,,,,,,,,,,? sound system.....?
i dont really see lionel as being any better then any of the rest of the manufatures.
ben10ben wrote:In my opinion, the original post did come on rather strongly with statements such as ". all because lionel cant come up with any new idea's so they just reissue their own older stuff and put a big a** price tag on them."Frankly, I still don't see the argument-MTH essentially built their whole business on reproducing prewar Lionel. Remember the Lionel Classics line? Those were all built by Mike Wolf, but sold under the Lionel name. After the big falling out with Lionel around 1990, prewar reproductions were basically the only things coming out of Mike's Train House. Williams hasn't made any prewar that I know of, but the majority of their trains in production today are copies of postwar Lionel trains. The Golden Memories line makes darn near exact reproductions of postwar sets, and even goes so far as use the original Lionel catalog art in advertising them. Frankly, I still don't see the issue. Here's why:1. Operators can get their chance to open a brand new, mint in box tinplate set that's never before been run without having to break the bank or destroy an historical artifact. Futhermore, operators can enjoy modern conveniences and trouble-free operation without the quirks of the originals. I love my original postwar, but it can sometimes be rather cantankerous. I can only imagine that prewar would be even worse. 2. Collectors are still going to pay premium prices for premium sets in top condition. No amount of reissues are going to change this, as reisssues will never be old. So in other words, I personally feel that this thread was started with a bunch of unnecessary complaining. Yes, some of the responses have been a bit out of line, but then I also feel the same way about the tone of the original post.
im my post i gave my opinions and stated a few facts. there is nothing you can argue with in that post, unless you want to try to argue that my opinion is wrong, but you will loose, an opinion is an opinion, there is no "wrong",
some are just mad that i did not suger coat my opinion, they are mad that someone would dare speak up and speak their mind and not fall in line with their line of thinking.
ben10ben wrote: Williams hasn't made any prewar that I know of,
Just FYI, Ben, but that's how Jerry got his start, reproducing Lionel prewar, mostly Standard Gauge. One of his employees was a teenager named Mike Wolf. . . .
It's true that I can't argue with your opinion, however questioning the premises on which your opinion is based is perfectly valid, and exactly what many of us have been doing.
Your basic opinion seems to be that Lionel shouldn't be reissuing prewar. That's perfectly fine for you to feel that way, and I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that.
Here's what you state to back this up, however
"how can it be "prewar" but only been made in the last few years"
As has been said, it's not "prewar" it's "Prewar celebration." It's advertised as being commemorative reproductions of some of the rarest, most beautiful, and most rare sets from the prewar era. There's nothing wrong with them advertising it as such.
"why not buy the real thing for 1/2 the price?"
As many of us have been pointing out to you, it would be quite difficult to find anything except low-grade operator quality pieces for anything close to the price of the reproductions. Even in cases of less than operator quality, the difference in price between the original and reproduction is nothing close to half.
"lionel is killing the market for real pre and post war stuff, by rereleasing it is making the value of the real things drop. "
Yes, it may hurt the value of operator quality pieces, because (reasonably priced) reproductions appeal to many of the same sort of people who would be buying operator quality items in the first place.
They can't replace like new or mint pieces, however, and it's foolish to think that the value of these sort of items will be hurt by reproductions.
The Postwar Celebration Series has been out for ten years now, with the first items appearing in the 1998 catalog. Despite this, a mint Congressional set, for example, which has been reproduced by both Lionel and Williams, sells easily for more than it did ten years ago. Actual evidence doesn't indicate that the value of collector quality pieces has been hurt a bit.
Besides that, trains aren't and never have been a smart investment.
"all because lionel cant come up with any new idea's so they just reissue their own older stuff and put a big a** price tag on them."
"erything other was the same stuff that was in the 2007 books, with maybe a new road name added to the line here or there."
I've lost count of the number of new, never before seen things Lionel has come out with in the last 8 years or so.
Yes, it's true that Lionel may not have invested in any(or perhaps very little-I haven't looked that closely yet)new tooling for this catalog. Honestly, a company in bankruptcy on the eve of a recession in the face of the weaking value of the dollar probably can't afford to stake that kind of money in new tooling. The new roadnames appeal to a lot of people, and I know just as many folks who say they would rather see the money spent on coming out with new roadnames on some of the excellent items already available.
"when i buy a perwar lionel, i want a prewar lionel.... not a 2008 copy of a prewar lionel."
I can understand this, as I personally would rather have the original postwar than Williams or PWC models. The reproductions appeal to just as many operators, though, and Lionel obviously wouldn't be making them if they didn't sell.
So, as I said, I don't fault you for having an opinion, however I don't feel that the premises on which you've based that opinion are very valid. No one is forcing you to buy the prewar reproductions, and there are plenty of folks out there who would be happy to buy them.
ben10ben wrote:It's true that I can't argue with your opinion, however questioning the premises on which your opinion is based is perfectly valid, and exactly what many of us have been doing. Your basic opinion seems to be that Lionel shouldn't be reissuing prewar. That's perfectly fine for you to feel that way, and I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that. Here's what you state to back this up, however"how can it be "prewar" but only been made in the last few years"As has been said, it's not "prewar" it's "Prewar celebration." It's advertised as being commemorative reproductions of some of the rarest, most beautiful, and most rare sets from the prewar era. There's nothing wrong with them advertising it as such. "why not buy the real thing for 1/2 the price?"As many of us have been pointing out to you, it would be quite difficult to find anything except low-grade operator quality pieces for anything close to the price of the reproductions. Even in cases of less than operator quality, the difference in price between the original and reproduction is nothing close to half. "lionel is killing the market for real pre and post war stuff, by rereleasing it is making the value of the real things drop. "Yes, it may hurt the value of operator quality pieces, because (reasonably priced) reproductions appeal to many of the same sort of people who would be buying operator quality items in the first place. They can't replace like new or mint pieces, however, and it's foolish to think that the value of these sort of items will be hurt by reproductions. The Postwar Celebration Series has been out for ten years now, with the first items appearing in the 1998 catalog. Despite this, a mint Congressional set, for example, which has been reproduced by both Lionel and Williams, sells easily for more than it did ten years ago. Actual evidence doesn't indicate that the value of collector quality pieces has been hurt a bit. Besides that, trains aren't and never have been a smart investment. "all because lionel cant come up with any new idea's so they just reissue their own older stuff and put a big a** price tag on them.""erything other was the same stuff that was in the 2007 books, with maybe a new road name added to the line here or there."I've lost count of the number of new, never before seen things Lionel has come out with in the last 8 years or so. Yes, it's true that Lionel may not have invested in any(or perhaps very little-I haven't looked that closely yet)new tooling for this catalog. Honestly, a company in bankruptcy on the eve of a recession in the face of the weaking value of the dollar probably can't afford to stake that kind of money in new tooling. The new roadnames appeal to a lot of people, and I know just as many folks who say they would rather see the money spent on coming out with new roadnames on some of the excellent items already available. "when i buy a perwar lionel, i want a prewar lionel.... not a 2008 copy of a prewar lionel."I can understand this, as I personally would rather have the original postwar than Williams or PWC models. The reproductions appeal to just as many operators, though, and Lionel obviously wouldn't be making them if they didn't sell. So, as I said, I don't fault you for having an opinion, however I don't feel that the premises on which you've based that opinion are very valid. No one is forcing you to buy the prewar reproductions, and there are plenty of folks out there who would be happy to buy them.
i would not have as big of a problem with them remaking the pre and post war trains if they would put a different road # on them, lionel , and all the books on lionel, price guides or any other book on lionel go by the road number to identify there engines and rolling stock. but these new issues have the same road number that they was copied from. you use the road number to find out what years its made for one. how is that going to work with the new pre war using the same numbers as the real thing? in a few years when some of the new pre war ends up on ebay how will someone new to the hobby know that dont know a lot about it yet going to know if its a real or copy of a pre war? how will the seller on ebay know if its real or not? there are lots of sellers on ebay that dont know a thing about trains, selling estates and what not.
As I said, the postwar celebration series has been out for ten years now, and there hasn't been any problem with telling them apart, despite using the exact same numbers on the engines.
In the case of the postwar celebration, everything has been quite plainly marked with the PWC logo on the bottom. When sitting on the track, they look the same, but a closer examination reveals the difference.
I can only assume that the prewar celebration pieces will be marked in a similar manner so as to differentiate them, as ten years of making postwar celebration pieces indicates that they will.
Besides that, selling reproductions without clearly marking them as such would be a violation of the TCA rules on reproductions and restorations. If they weren't marked as reproductions, and dealer attempting to sell one at a TCA show would be in big trouble, and I don't think that Lionel wants their dealers or themselves to get on the bad side of the TCA.
ben10ben wrote:As I said, the postwar celebration series has been out for ten years now, and there hasn't been any problem with telling them apart, despite using the exact same numbers on the engines. In the case of the postwar celebration, everything has been quite plainly marked with the PWC logo on the bottom. When sitting on the track, they look the same, but a closer examination reveals the difference. I can only assume that the prewar celebration pieces will be marked in a similar manner so as to differentiate them, as ten years of making postwar celebration pieces indicates that they will.Besides that, selling reproductions without clearly marking them as such would be a violation of the TCA rules on reproductions and restorations. If they weren't marked as reproductions, and dealer attempting to sell one at a TCA show would be in big trouble, and I don't think that Lionel wants their dealers or themselves to get on the bad side of the TCA.
i dont know anything about the TCA, but you dont have to be a member to sell on ebay or any other place outside an TCA show. im not talking about dealers or lhs.
ben10ben wrote:I can only assume that the prewar celebration pieces will be marked in a similar manner so as to differentiate them, as ten years of making postwar celebration pieces indicates that they will.Besides that, selling reproductions without clearly marking them as such would be a violation of the TCA rules on reproductions and restorations. If they weren't marked as reproductions, and dealer attempting to sell one at a TCA show would be in big trouble, and I don't think that Lionel wants their dealers or themselves to get on the bad side of the TCA.
Besides the markings, it's pretty easy to tell a reproduction from an original. It's almost impossible to match the paint exactly, due to age and due to the original being lead-based. I can't speak for Lionel, but MTH usually changes the color, deliberately, to avoid any confusion. Usually there will be other subtle differences. The most obvious difference is in the precision. The printing will be clearer. The couplers are usually a giveaway. An original looks almost like it was made by hand when you compare it to a reproduction. The two couplers on a repro will look exactly alike, with everything nice and straight. The two couplers on the original will be sloppier, because more of the steps that used to be done by hand can be done by machine now.
Telling originals apart from repros sometimes was a problem in the 1960s, but the manufacturers have had more than 40 years now to learn how to keep would-be fraudsters from passing off repros as valuable originals.
Sorry, but I still don't understand the issue.
The Postwar celebration items are quite clearly marked as such on the underside, and there's no reason to think that the prewar celebration models won't follow in a similar manner.
"lionel copied MTH, ,,,,,,,,,,,,? sound system.....?"
Just for record, MTH didn't have a sound system to copy. They contracted with QSI to use a cheapened version of QSI's system which became PS1. PS2 is original to MTH, although QSI has claimed in a lawsuit that MTH illegally expropriated QSI technology to develop that system. So I don't see how anyone can reasonably claim Lionel copied MTH in sound systems. Not to mention that since about Railsounds 2.5, the quality of the sound from Lionel locomotives is audibly superior to anything made in the same era by MTH.
MTH's innovation has primarily been in marketing, not technology, where they have been the follower, not the leader in such areas as command control, sound, couplers, less obtrusive connections between tenders and locos, etc.
The reasons some of us have responded strongly to your criticisms of Lionel are two fold. One, they are factually unsupported by history and the data at hand. Two, you seem to hold MTH to a completely different standard than Lionel, when indeed, MTH has been ripping off Lionel's history and trade dress almost from day one of their existence. So in addition to being wrong on the facts, you appear blind to the double standard you are advocating for the leading manufacturers, which seems both unsporting and merely to favor your preference for MTH .
nblum wrote:"lionel copied MTH, ,,,,,,,,,,,,? sound system.....?"Just for record, MTH didn't have a sound system to copy. They contracted with QSI to use a cheapened version of QSI's system which became PS1. PS2 is original to MTH, although QSI has claimed in a lawsuit that MTH illegally expropriated QSI technology to develop that system. So I don't see how anyone can reasonably claim Lionel copied MTH in sound systems. Not to mention that since about Railsounds 2.5, the quality of the sound from Lionel locomotives is audibly superior to anything made in the same era by MTH. MTH's innovation has primarily been in marketing, not technology, where they have been the follower, not the leader in such areas as command control, sound, couplers, less obtrusive connections between tenders and locos, etc. The reasons some of us have responded strongly to your criticisms of Lionel are two fold. One, they are factually unsupported by history and the data at hand. Two, you seem to hold MTH to a completely different standard than Lionel, when indeed, MTH has been ripping off Lionel's history and trade dress almost from day one of their existence. So in addition to being wrong on the facts, you appear blind to the double standard you are advocating for the leading manufacturers, which seems both unsporting and merely to favor your preference for MTH .
oh,,, so the judge is wrong? the judge lied? last thing i read about it was that lionel lost that case. probably why lionel is jacking up there prices, they got to fork over the money to mth.
fyi, i own a heck of a lot more lionel peices then i do MTH. altho as for the first 2008 books i have 1 engine and 12 peices of rolling stock ordered from mth, and i will be only ordering 1 peice of rolling stock from lionel,
mth has great cars at reasable prices just as detailed as lionel standard O, and in some cases more so. depending on the cars. lionel just did not come out with much new this time, and jacked there prices up on last years cars. some 3 packs of cars , same cars, same tooling, same part #, and same road name the price jumped something like 60.00 more for the 3 pack in 2008 from 2007. (im just going by the catalogs for this )
oh, and like i told another person who replied.... where did i say that i thought it was ok for MTH to copy/reissue lionels their pre war stuff? i dont buy theirs like i dont buy lionels. the only reason i brought up MTH was to give my opinion and experance with there modern engines. and that i prefer MTH engines to lionels, but i love the pre and post war lionel engines... the real thing that is.
The lawsuit had nothing to do with sound systems. In the time period in question no one wanted to copy MTH's sound system.
As far as my understanding goes, it dealt with some highly technical details of the manner which tooling was made and locomotives assembled.
It's also worth noting that the initial ruling(and 40 million dollar payment) was overturned on appeal, and we're all still mostly in the dark regarding the current developments. The latest word is that there's going to be an out of court settlement, but the people who know aren't talking, and it's unlikely that most of us will ever know what the exact terms are.
ben10ben wrote:The lawsuit had nothing to do with sound systems. In the time period in question no one wanted to copy MTH's sound system. As far as my understanding goes, it dealt with some highly technical details of the manner which tooling was made and locomotives assembled. It's also worth noting that the initial ruling(and 40 million dollar payment) was overturned on appeal, and we're all still mostly in the dark regarding the current developments. The latest word is that there's going to be an out of court settlement, but the people who know aren't talking, and it's unlikely that most of us will ever know what the exact terms are.
has MTH sued lionel 2 different times then? everything that i have read online and from what the owners of my 2 lhs mth dealers said is that lionel and there subcontractor in korea stole the sound system, or a peice of their technolgy rather, from MTH, mth came out with the sound system before lionel did, but lionel came out with theirs REALLY soon after MTH, so soon that MTH did not think that lionel came up with theirs on their own, so fast. mth got one of lionels engines and opened it up seen how lionel did there sound system and then sued. yes there is some grey area where did lionel or the sub contractor stole it, or did lionel know that the sub stole it. or did lionels sub buy it from MTH's sub, both subs was in korea, one guy rorking for both subs maybe?
last i read on the lawsuit was lionel did end up loosing in the end, but lionel and mth are still arguing over how much lionel should have to pay.
"you appear blind to the double standard you are advocating for the leading manufacturers, whitch seems both unsporting and merely to favor your preference foe MTH"
gee, that discribes ls1heli to a tee if you swap lionel and MTH around.
I'm surprised at the strong feelings. everyone is entitled to their opinions right or wrong. if you like em, buy em, if you don't, don't. it's pretty simple. we can discuss the merits and demerits of these items but no one is technically wrong. the thing I object to is when someone says stuff like:
"It's quite obvious by your post that you buy junk and nothing but junk"
"are you stupid or on crack?"
"The only prices that the PWC series hurts is the operators junk"
"If, you don't like than don't buy it! Buy the junk!"
"This hobby is a bunch of un-educated old cranky men. This internet has really opened my eyes."
"As we have been seeing the past couple of years, the price of operators pieces and junk has taken a massive hit"
"What happened your parents didn't like you? "
"LMAO! Dude, you have NO idea what your talking about. Quit making a fool out of yourself."
I find this kind of personal crap offensive! there is no need of it. really it should work out great for everyone involved. the guys who like the new old stuff don't have to worry about the guy who only wants originals beating him to the store to get one, and the guy who only wants originals doesn't have to worry about the guy who is looking for new stuff competing in his market. the other guy doesn't matter, as he only collects the very best and derides the
rest of us as having junk. it must be nice being so special. this guy doesn't matter and can be
dismissed out of hand as not worth knowing. I guess this really only threatens the guy who is using the trains as an investment at which point it could as easily be stamnps he collects. of course this is only my opinion but I see both points.
get a new one and run the crap out of it and use your originals sparingly. let the grandkids of tomorrow worry about collecting them when you wear out these re-issues.
my only issue was that it sounds funny, a tin train going around the track with protosounds 2.0.
Scott
37fleetwood wrote:I'm surprised at the strong feelings. everyone is entitled to their opinions right or wrong. if you like em, buy em, if you don't, don't. it's pretty simple. we can discuss the merits and demerits of these items but no one is technically wrong. the thing I object to is when someone says stuff like:"It's quite obvious by your post that you buy junk and nothing but junk""are you stupid or on crack?""The only prices that the PWC series hurts is the operators junk""If, you don't like than don't buy it! Buy the junk!""This hobby is a bunch of un-educated old cranky men. This internet has really opened my eyes.""As we have been seeing the past couple of years, the price of operators pieces and junk has taken a massive hit""What happened your parents didn't like you? ""LMAO! Dude, you have NO idea what your talking about. Quit making a fool out of yourself." I find this kind of personal crap offensive! there is no need of it. really it should work out great for everyone involved. the guys who like the new old stuff don't have to worry about the guy who only wants originals beating him to the store to get one, and the guy who only wants originals doesn't have to worry about the guy who is looking for new stuff competing in his market. the other guy doesn't matter, as he only collects the very best and derides therest of us as having junk. it must be nice being so special. this guy doesn't matter and can bedismissed out of hand as not worth knowing. I guess this really only threatens the guy who is using the trains as an investment at which point it could as easily be stamnps he collects. of course this is only my opinion but I see both points. get a new one and run the crap out of it and use your originals sparingly. let the grandkids of tomorrow worry about collecting them when you wear out these re-issues.my only issue was that it sounds funny, a tin train going around the track with protosounds 2.0. Scott
oh i cant wait to see what their excuse is for saying all them things you quoted.....lol and come to think of it,,,, i dont think i have posted anything nasty or bad about anyone here, or said their stuff is junk, but they question how old i am??????........lol
Deleted stuff I posted (copy below), no need in repeating myself.
Don
dbaker48 wrote:I can't believe this thread !! 5 pages...... and what has been said...... nothing........ Maybe it could be possible to just automatically revert back to page one, instead of creating another page ??
I can't believe this thread !! 5 pages...... and what has been said...... nothing........
Maybe it could be possible to just automatically revert back to page one, instead of creating another page ??
maybe it could work like an 8 track
kinda like a bad episode of Twilight Zone" where you can't get out of it. ok I'm sick of it lets move on before I hurl
Actually the judge in Detroit got kicked pretty hard by the appeals court, both the 3 panel original team and then the full nine judge panel. If you read the rulings carefully, he didn't get very much correct. While the court did not out and out dimiss the case, the guidelines set for a re-trial pretty much torpedoed most of MTH's original "evidence" as unsubstantiated and inadmissable in a retrial. Most of the information regarding what actually happened in Korea is available for free by carefully searching google and archive.org.
The price increases have nothing to do with the trial or the proposed settlement (which hasn't happened yet). The price increase is due to the increased costs in producing the trains in China because of a weakening dollar and the increased energy costs required to produce the items and transport them. The prices for almost everything being poduced overseas is about to skyrocket and it has nothing to do with Lionel or MTH.
"everything that i have read online and from what the owners of my 2 lhs mth dealers said is that lionel and there subcontractor in korea stole the sound system"
Sorry but that's completely incorrect.
The first MTH sound system was a cheapened version of the sound system made by QSI. In fact, if you open an MTH PS-1 engine, you'll that the boards are marked QSI.
Lionel's Railsounds was a completely in-house system, which I believe first came out around 1991-at least two years earlier than the first MTH Protosound locomotives.
As I said also, the first Railsounds was so vastly superior to Protosounds 1 that Lionel would have had no reason to copy it.
When Protosound 2 first started showing up in 2000, Lionel was already so well established in the command control and sound market that they would have had no reason to copy MTH sounds.
There is a completely separate lawsuit alleging that MTH copied proprietary QSI technology for PS-2. This lawsuit has yet to see its day and court, and it may not ever.
last i read on the lawsuit was lionel did end up loosing in the end, but lionel and mth are still arguing over how much lionel should have to pay. "
Don't know where you read this, but as others have written, MTH's initial victory was pretty much totally trashed on appeal. A settlement agreement is pending on both of MTH's legal actions which will no doubt be sealed and thus no one will know who "won" or "lost" if anyone. Many of us in the hobby consider MTH's lawsuits unethical and unjustified, and it is clear these actions have injured both Lionel's and MTH's ability to focus on their products and be profitable. In the end they represent an approach to business that is irresponsible and self-destructive, IMO. If you want to support that sort of company, feel free, but some in the hobby do not buy any MTH products for these reasons.
The original point you made that Lionel is copying its own past is correct, but many of us like these reproductions. If you find MTH rolling stock a better value, that's fine, but I'd guess you're in the minority in the hobby given that Lionel's sales are twice MTH's according to most estimates.
Be happy with what you like and realize that your posts have mainly been perceived as telling other people they shouldn't like what THEY like. I think that was the reason for inquiring about your age, which I agree was inappropriate, as well as the personal abuse, which is always uncalled for. But your tone and general approach hasn't been all that collegial, warm and fuzzy either, so I'm not surprised you've drawn such pointed responses, including my own.
"1. It is no longer concerned with discussing the original topic."
Disagree, it's very much about the points raised in the original post.
"2. It has turned into an MTH vs Lionel bash thread."
The first post is very much an MTH vs.Lionel thread, indubitably :).
"3. It has turned into a personal attack thread."
A few posts were personally abusive, and could be deleted. The rest of the thread is to the point and deals with issues of obvious great concern to many in the hobby.
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