Hi all,
First I'd like to say it's good to be a member of this forum, at this point I guess you could say Im pretty dumb on all things related to electric trains, but Im sure I will get the "hang of it", and someday I hope to be able to answer as many questions as I might ask! I just retierd, and have decided to build an O gauge train layout. It will fit on a 4X8 sheet of plywood, and have two oval track layouts, one big oval, and one small oval, the small oval will be inside the big oval. The oval track layouts will be connected by four switch tracks two lefthand, and two righthand Lionell O gauge 31" path remote control. I will be able to run the train from the big oval, and via the switch track, go into the small oval, or I will be able to run two trains at one time, one train on the big oval, and one train on the small oval. Now this may seem like a small basic layout to you guys, but to me it's almost rocket science!! I am useing Lionel O-31 gauge track, not fast track, but at this point Im not sure which transformer, and controler to use. Will the MTH Z-1000 be big enough to run two trains at one time, and operate my switch track? Also could you guys recommend a good BASIC book that will help me get this beast wierd-up? And any other advice you guys could give a newbee will be GREATLY APPRICIATED.
Thanks very Much,
Paul
[welcome#[ to the forum Paul!
Congradulations on getting your layout set up! I suppose you already have the track laid out, and perhaps the trains, but you dont have a transformer. I believe that the MTH will be sufficient, although I have have not had experience with it. You actually are better off getting maybe 2 transmormers. Let me explain. If you have 2 loops of track, and the are CONNECTED, you must have a plastic 'fibre' pin in the center rail of the switches that are connecting the ovals together. Otherwise, if you have 1 train on each, and you try to control them with one transfomer, they both will respond. If you turn the current down, both will stop. Turn it up, both will go. Thats why you EITHER need to get 2 transmormers (Lionel CW-80s are about $80 each, even cheaper on eBay) or you can go and get the wireless train control called Lionel TMCC. TMCC will cost you about $120 for the command base and hand held controller. (It comes seperatley and in a set) The command base will control ALL trains that have the electronics in them to use TMCC. If you have un TMCC equiped engines, you will need 2 powermasters, one for each oval to control each train by the hand held controller.
You may get what I'm saying, or you maybe completely lost. Somebody else may be able to explain it better.
Thanks,
Grayson
"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen
Paul,
You will enjoy this hobby. I can't answer your questions in detail but I will try some general answers. My Z-1000 (100Watt transformer) easily runs two modern MTH PS2.0 trains. One is freight and the other is a railking passenger set. I do tend to run them slowly through.
Do you already have trains? If so, what era? The Z-1000 could probably run two smaller post war trains as well. For example, my 1960's Lionel came with a 30Watt transformer and it worked fine.
Small modern transformers can have problems with "other manufacture's" modern engines. The new ZW from Lionel and the MTH Z-4000 transformers do not have that problem too often. So if I was buying engines from MTH I would purchase the MTH transformer. If I am only going to purchase Lionel engines then I would go Lionel. If I was considering both engines then I would go with the MTH unit as the Lionel CW-80 definately has issues when used to operate the MTH PS2.0 engines.
I hope you are not considering purchasing a transformer separate. If you need transformer and trains you will get a much better value purchasing a set. You can always sell the track to someone else.
Someone else here will recommend a good book, but feel free to bring all your questions here. Have you checked out the FAQ - Newbie list (first thread on this forum)? Still, there is nothing better then seeing something in real life. Try to visit a hobby shop or a club if there is one near you. Consider picking up a copy of CTT (Classic Toy Trains) magazine (they sponsor this forum) at select large book stores or better yet your local hobby shop. Libraries can sometimes be a good source for books...just watch out for all the DC HO and N books. 031 tubular is 3-rail A/C.
Most of welcome again and have fun!
Jim H
Paul!
I would go with two Z1000 transformers since you have one already. The CW 80 may not respond favorably to the Z1000 when you cross over at the switches, could be arking issues and that will eat up your wheelsets. Speaking of switches for 031 the best that I have found are the old post war 022 switches, the modern Lionel O gauge switches are mechanically challanged!
The Z1000 will handle three Williams SD-45's at one time plus a few lights, I have mine hooked together as one a one unit consist to pull a long frieght train.
Don't forget the insulating pins between the two oval tracks, also make sure to place the insulating pins in the switches at the right place.
Lee F.
Hello!
I'm not going to suggest a transformer because everyone has a different opinion. I would say your Z-1000 is not going to be enough power. Try and make sure when you decide on a transformer, it has a "pure sine wave". All postwar Lionel transformers do, and the Z-4000, and MRC pure power transformers fit the bill as far as I know. I have a new ZW, but that may be overkill for what you are doing.
There are many good books out there for beginners. The Big Book of Lionel by Robert Schleicher comes to mind, along with The O-Gauge Primer, and Getting Started With Lionel Trains by Allan W. Miller. I've bought all these at used bookstores, but Amazon will probably have them also.
Hope this helps!
Lee's warning against using a CW80 with another type of transformer is apt. Actually, it reflects a deeper problem. If you simply power one loop from one transformer and the other loop from another transformer (or a second output from a multiple-output transformer), you cannot run a train between the two loops without risking a potentially harmful or dangerous fault current as the train crosses over.
The only way to avoid this fault is to have exactly the same voltage on the two loops. The situation Lee was thinking about involved two transformers with different waveforms, which makes it impossible to match the voltages, even if a voltmeter says that they are the same.
It is a common misunderstanding that, if the two tracks are powered by multiple outputs of the same transformer, this problem goes away. In fact, with many transformers, this is a worse situation and can result in a burned-up transformer.
There is a not-too-complicated solution: Wire the center rail of each loop to a single-pole-double-throw switch that allows you to connect the loop to either of your two transformers or transformer outputs, however different they are. Then you can connect both loops to the same transformer when running between loops.
A further improvement is to subdivide the loops into smaller sections, called "blocks". With some thought and a few more SPDT switches (but no additional transformers!), you can create a layout that allows you to swap two trains between loops. Center-off switches are another easy upgrade, to allow you to park a train somewhere connected to neither transformer.
Bob Nelson
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Hi HB to the forum. I have the exact layout you are talking about. I power it with a P/W ZW. I have the loops isolated from each other and they run on the outer handles. I have the accessories and switch machines (using ross switches) powered by one of the inner handles. I have run a 736 P/W Berk and 2 modern lionel consists at the same time with plenty of power to spare. I have no problems with crossing over from 1 loop to another.
this is a great hobby and I am sure you will enjoy it.
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
jmsiv wrote:do you mean connect with track or electricaly
Track. I can see this if only one train was running, but two? Joe
I would connect two loops together just so I can move trains around. I would also put a reversing loop in the inner loop so i can turn a train around. Since the loops are connected, you could turn the outer loop train around as well.
The MTH Z-1000 has plenty of power for 2 MTH 2.0 trains and a couple of light bulbs in my MTH station.
Wes
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
Connect all the outside rails, except for any control rails of the turnouts. Insulate the center rails.
A common problem with crossovers is that the control rails between the loops are on opposite sides of the track, so that, because of the insulating pins in the control rails, there is no outside-rail connection between the loops. In that case, you have to provide a separate connection to tie the outside rails of the two loops together and to the transformer common.
I am happy to be able to answer it.
lionelsoni wrote: I am happy to be able to answer it.
Bob know his electronics. He has been a great help. Sometimes I have to tell him to tell me in English [layman's terms]. He comes through.
Wow,
I sure wanna thank all you guys for the info, I don't really understand the block system, but I do understand the fiber pins in the 3rd rail of the switch tracks in order to keep one transformer operating the small oval, and one transformer operating the large oval. I just got my table built today, and am giving it a white base-coat, I've been doing alot of shopping the last few days, but WHAT FUN IT'S BEEN. I went to the local hobbyshop and got all my track, and the four switch tracks, and fiber pins. I won an MTH Railking Southern Crescent steam loco, thats never been out of the box on Ebay, and I used "buy it now, and purchased two new MTH Z-1000 transformers. When the paint dries I want to lay my track out, and get it where I want it, my new loco will be here this Monday, and my transformers should be here by the middle of next week. At this point Im not really interested in parking the trains on the track, what I'd like to do is be able to run one train on the inner oval, and at the same time run one train on the outter oval, or just run one train on the layout, but be able to go from the outter oval to the inner oval useing the switch tracks. Can I put one lionel lockon on the inner oval, and connect it to one Z1000, and put one lionel lockon on the outter oval, and connect it to the other Z1000, and ofcourse use the fiber pins on the switch tracks, or will I have to install a block system?
Again thanks so much for the info, I REALLY do appriciate it.
Just to be clear....I think Bob was kidding when he said to traverse the two tracks with one tranformer full and the other not!
Paul, You insulate the center rail to isolate track power (plastic pins are available or you can created a gap in the center rail). On the other hand, the switches will often leave the center rail with steel pins while adding a fiber/plastic pin on on or the other outside rails.
Bob is very correct about the potential hazzards of using two transformers in "isolated" loops that contain a connecting crossover. However, I live life on the wild side and sometimes do this as I find the risk minimal and easily managed. I have also seen this done on my club's layout with no apparent problems (after hundreds of hours of SUPERVISED operation). I manage the risk by making sure I never leave an engine or car across the insulated track and only go from one loop to another occaisionally and while making sure the two IDENTICAL transformers are at similar voltages. I also make sure the tranformers are in phase by plugging them both into the same outlet via a power strip. Remember, your mileage may vary! I know Bob has seen transformers damaged probably in this way, but I accept this risk for the pure pleasure of turning two ZW handles at the same time or watching my two Z-1000s run my trains on two loops at differing speeds.
Hummingbird....I always stick with similar transformers, I make sure I set both transformers to about the same low voltage whenever I change loops, and I am careful not to leave any train in the switch/crossover area. Again...your mileage may vary.
You will need to "park" one engine somewhere whenever you change tracks. This is easily accomplished by insulating a section of track (fiber pins in center rail on each end of the insulated section) and inserting an on/off switch between the transformer and a new lockon located whithin the insulated section. The insulated track lockon is now "in parrallel" with your normal lockon except it has a switch. It really is a lot easier then this paragraph suggests and great fun once you get the hang of it!
I should have said this before. As Bob suggested, using insulated pins/ insulated sections, toggle switches, and extra lockons you can easily run two trains off one Z1000 and avoid the risk of ground loop currents when you change loops. The only downside is when both trains are running they will run at the same voltage (ie similar speeds). If that bothers you, Lionel used to sell a resister coil to vary speed on one of the loops (just use it in place of one of the switches).
If I were in your shoes I would wire at least two lockons (if not three) evenly spaced around each loop with wires going all the way back to the transformer (s). Then if you ever decide to add blocks you do not have to rewire and/or rip up track (been there..done that).
Thanks again for the info, I finally get it, you guys made my day, you guys may laugh but this has been my big delema for the last week, as I have said I know very little about this hobby, but now since I joined this forum my knowledge has increased 100% which is'nt much, thats how little I know, but thanks to you guys I have one piece of the puzzle, and thats a better start than I had befor you guys so graciously helped me. The best thing I did since I got into this hobby is'nt buying all the equipment, but rather joining this forun.
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