I just noticed on the back of my new 1950 Lionel catalog, a Turbine Set that contains a ECU-1, that has color buttons on it, and each car and loco on the train has a small Lionel "L" sybol that has a different color background on each car. Then, if you pressed one of the colored buttons of the ECU, it would cause that car or loco to do something. For example, the coal dump car can dump WITHOUT a remote control section ANYWHERE on the layout. Cars can uncouple ANYWHERE on the layout.
Was this ever created, or was it just a concept? If so, why doesnt anybody talk about this early TMCC? (IMO)
By magicman710, shot with DSC-S90 at 2007-11-23
"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen
Still some out there . Here's a picture. I think it used the old radio vibrator tubes.
The electronic set was first described in 1946, although the concept not really caught on all that much.
The control box output ten different frequencies. Each of the cars had a receiver, and each receiver could be tuned to respond to one particular frequency.
Each receiver was basically a momentary on-off switch. On most of the cars, it just closed a relay that tripped the coil couplers. On the dump car, the receiver both activated the dump bin, and the couplers. The tender had a double receiver, one to run the whistle, and one to trip the e-unit.
I've actually looked several times into assembling my own set, as I could never hope to afford a proper original set. All of the cars from the late 1940s era had the capability to accept a receiver, although they do need cars with center rail pickups. Any normal 671 or 726 can be adapted to work by installing an e-unit and brush plate from the early "atomic motor" engines. For that matter, one of those can be made to work with no modification.
The transmitters can be had for about $50 off of Ebay, and the receivers can be had for $10-20 each usually. For that matter, it would be possible to construct your own receivers using the schematic in the service manual-they actually aren't all that complicated.
All of that aside, from what I understand, the whole system is very finicky. The receivers need to be constantly tuned, and the system is sensitive to external RF intereference and so forth. I'm also told that the track and wheels all need to be spotlessly clean. I also don't know whether or not the system would play well with TMCC. I'm sure TMCC would be unaffected, but I suspect that it might prevent the electronic set from working properly. Of course, that would just be a simple matter of unplugging the command.
If you're interested in more reading, the K-line Lionel service manual has a full 16 pages devoted to the maintenance and care of the electronic set. There are schematics for both the transmitter and receiver, as well as wiring diagrams on all the cars.
Bob Nelson
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
ChiefEagles wrote:Grayson, great question and great responses.
Thanks Chief, and thanks Everyone for the great responses! The set in my opion was a good deal for the money. Other sets in the catalog run around $50-$70. This one is $87.00, about $700 in todays money.
I would have to agree with Ben that this technology is probably ahead of them. We have troubles with cell phone signals inside of buildings today, and they tried using a system that was almost (ALMOST) wireless?
Chuck,
On further reading, the section under tuning the transmitter states "If signal generator and other radio service equipment are available standard radio procedure may be used to adjust the output frequency of the transmitter."
No other details are given on how to tune the transmitter, so it sounds as though what you described-using standard servicing equipment-may in fact be a necessity.
With that said, though, it looks to me like the 5E isn't really as specialized as I'd initially thought. It's basically a multimeter with a range of 0-200V, 0-10V, and 0-10mA(or at least something in that neighborhood). So, any multimeter capable of operating in those three ranges should be fine.
What I've always wanted to know is if anyone out there is currently running that set. I wish I knew and I wish CTT would cover it in the magazine. Maybe Bob K. will see this and send out some feelers for a future article. I would love to even see a video clip.
Mike s.
msacco wrote: What I've always wanted to know is if anyone out there is currently running that set. I wish I knew and I wish CTT would cover it in the magazine. Maybe Bob K. will see this and send out some feelers for a future article. I would love to even see a video clip. Mike s.
An operating system would be a great topic to cover in magazine.
msacco wrote:What I've always wanted to know is if anyone out there is currently running that set. I wish I knew and I wish CTT would cover it in the magazine. Maybe Bob K. will see this and send out some feelers for a future article. I would love to even see a video clip. Mike s.
They did back in February 1991. It was the cover/feature article. Looking at the issues TOC, there is the article on this set, an interview with Richard Kuhn, a couple of articles on the Lionel's Chicago office and an article on Phil Kopp's O gauge layout. Great issue.
"You needed some very special equipment to align/calibrate the transmitter/receiver sets. These sets were A) way ahead of their time and B) were using technologies that were patented by a company that made remote gantry cranes.
The crane company notified Lionel of the patent infringement issues. Between this and the service issues, Lionel abandoned the technology."
Good thread topic Grayson and informed responses too. I gotta laugh when I read what Chuck wrote. I love it... the more things change, the more they stay the same. Patent infringement issuses, service issues: we could just as well be talking about current train technology...
On second thought, let's stick to talking about just the old technology.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
I think I have that issue, but if I recall they didn't profile someone who's running that system. It was just a background article on the set. And besides, I think after 16 years they could dedicate another feature to this system. Heck Grayson might have been in diapers at that time anyway. found this ad on ebay for the control system. Check it out! My favorite part is what's included with the catalog. A "Pop Persuader". I would love to see a copy of that. I'm sure these strategies would work on Dads even today.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1946-AD-LIONEL-TRAINS-ELECTRONIC-CONTROL-HAPPY-BOY_W0QQitemZ110158310490QQihZ001QQcategoryZ37834QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
As is often the case, I'm quite impressed with the amount of information Ben10ben has provided here. One would think that Ben is an old, toy train lifer that's been in the hobby forever because of the vast and incredible knowledge he so willingly shares. But he's a young man, and part of the bright future of this hobby. Way to be, Ben! Thanks for the info!
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
"found this ad on ebay for the control system. Check it out! My favorite part is what's included with the catalog. A "Pop Persuader". I would love to see a copy of that. I'm sure these strategies would work on Dads even today."
That's a good advertisement Mike and typical of the way Lionel advertised in days gone by, when fathers actually bought trains for their sons first, and them second - and not the other way around.
Lionel could re-issue the same ad today, probably using the same boy, only now as an overweight, balding man cussing under his breath: "Hmmm, this thing doesn't work right. I spent a grand on this? It's not even full-scale... look, it's missing 5 rivets under the boiler. That's completely unprototypical. Darn, that's a Pennsy whistle tone on a Nickle Plate... intolerable... how dare they??? I'm taking this back to the dealer... errr, uh, it doesn't work at all now! Well, now I have to send it off for service."
Ah, yes the old saying "A Lifetime of Happiness" has become a lifetime of unhappiness for some.
brianel027 wrote: "found this ad on ebay for the control system. Check it out! My favorite part is what's included with the catalog. A "Pop Persuader". I would love to see a copy of that. I'm sure these strategies would work on Dads even today."That's a good advertisement Mike and typical of the way Lionel advertised in days gone by, when fathers actually bought trains for their sons first, and them second - and not the other way around.Lionel could re-issue the same ad today, probably using the same boy, only now as an overweight, balding man cussing under his breath: "Hmmm, this thing doesn't work right. I spent a grand on this? It's not even full-scale... look, it's missing 5 rivets under the boiler. That's completely unprototypical. Darn, that's a Pennsy whistle tone on a Nickle Plate... intolerable... how dare they??? I'm taking this back to the dealer... errr, uh, it doesn't work at all now! Well, now I have to send it off for service."Ah, yes the old saying "A Lifetime of Happiness" has become a lifetime of unhappiness for some.
Not all of us on these forums are rivet counters, Brian. And as you will soon see, some dads still buy TOY trains for their kids to enjoy.
ChiefEagles wrote:Yes, Ben is great and so are others. Then I'm amazed at someone who posts just to be posting and lots of the time gives poor advice.
That's right Chief !! I agree with you wholeheartedly !! Plus posters that have gained a wealth of knowledge from others in a very short time & just become WIzards on every topic !! It's truly Amazing !! I've been so excited lately watching some grow in knowledge & post counts too !! This is great !! And really, we have CTT to thank for all this & a place to enjoy all this info !!
Thanks, John
And now I'd like to say I'm sick & tired of being put down because I, yes I like the trains with the bells & whistles . Yes, I can afford to have problems & I like to tinker & fix stuff. I'm speaking for myself cause I don't think any one else is going to take the guys on that complain all the time about the scale stuff BUT I WILL !! And I will keep right on liking my stuff with bells & whistles . Now, the way I see it , if you guys like your stuff that's fine but quit cutting our stuff down & our likes . And it should start with you Brianel. I have never before cut postwar stuff down or MPC, which I do have some of. I always agree with them buut this is getting rediculous.
Hello Grayson!
As early as 1939 Joe Bonnano(Lionel's top man in the Engineering Dept) kept a diary which detailed remote controlled couplers controlled by radio frequencies. World War Two set back the project a few years. However, during the War. Lionel management & The Engineering dept worked on plans for the Toy Train Line which included the 726 Berkshire, Knuckle Couplers, Smoke & the Electronic Set. They would meet on Sundays during the war for their planning sessions & It was also decided that no Sheetmetal Tinplate Trains would be made after the war ended (Tin Litho & Standard Gauge) They decide to invest in plastic injected molding machinery to produce more realistic Freight & Passenger Trains with more detail as opposed to what had been made before the War with caracture engines & cars( Toy Trains that resembled. but did not look like real trains) Now, even though Lionel & American Flyer were prohibited from manufacturing Trains during the War, they were in no way prohibited from planning the postwar line as long as they met their Government Contracts for the war & were not hindered in any manner. Mario Caruso( The Foreman at the Factory & Treasurer for Lionel) Remarked: "Whoever comes out first with Smoke after the war will dominate the market." This is important to consider as Lionel was working on many developments for trains after the war & the Electronic Set was desingned for many more features that were undeveloped due to the patent infringements,expenses, & general lack of interest as well as operating issues doomed the 1947 Electronic Set. Todays TMCC Controlled Trains are actually based on principles & ideas from the Electronic Set. The biggest difference is in the Handheld Controller for TMCC & it can be used for more things than the controller that came with the Electronic Set back then. Very neat technology indeed. Take Care.
Hey Keith! Very good information. One question, how much did the Controller itself cost?
The controller was not offered for seperate sales.
The technology has more in common with DCC and DCS where the power line/center rail is actually used to transmit information. TMCC uses the track as an antenna and does not encode anything in the power line. It uses the track, specifically the outer rails, as a radio antenna.
The other major difference in the Electronic Control set from the 50's and TMCC/DCS/DCC systems used today is these are all true digital systems and the Electronic Set was pure analog. It used multiple frequencies to control the various features. When you touched buttons on the controller a specific frequency was generated that would activate a specific device. Release button, no signal. The newer systems the base carrier signal is always there and the digital commands are superimposed on this.
Chuck, I have to disagree with you. The electronic set looks digital to me. Each pushbutton has only two states; and each receiver either actuates or does not actuate its coupler or whatever. That comprises a parallel transmisstion of 10 bits.
The traditional whistle and direction control is also digital. You cannot adjust the whistle loudness in proportion to the control position. And the e-unit can be stepped into 3 discrete states. So that amounts to transmission of one binary and one ternary digit.
Only the train speed is controlled by analog means. The speed varies monotonically with the transformer voltage control, with resolution that is in principle infinite.
The presence or absence of a carrier does not matter. There are plenty of digital systems without one, for example, the baseband start-stop code usually used with RS-232 and RS-422 digital links; and there are analog systems with carriers, for example, AM and FM radio broadcast signals.
I designed my idiosyncratic system to be able to operate two trains independently with analog controls; but I have found myself using it more often to control a steam locomotive and its air whistle, so that I can "bend" the whistle sound, which I find a lot more fun than the traditional simple on-off.
One of the caveats regarding adjusting the receivers is that you can easily miss tune a receiver and get the cars to respond to the wrong buttons or take the incorrect actions. This does not imply any type of true digital signaling. In a pure abstract sense it seems more like the original TV remotes that used ultrasonic tuning forks to control basic function on a TV.
I'm trying to find the original patent for the crane control system but I don't have enough information for the Patent Office search engine. Neither the trade name Omni-Lectronic or the assignee's company, Trenton Marine Service pull up any hits.
"Analog data implies continuity as contrasted to digital data that is concerned with discrete states." IEEE Standard Dictionary of Electrical and Electronics Terms, Second Edition, The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc., New York, NY, 1977
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