I often have debated with friends about what is the greatest rivalry in sports. Yankees/Red Sox, Ohio State/Michigan, Army/Navy...the list goes on. But lately the Lionel and MTH legal battles have made me wonder what rivalry was more fierce:
Lionel vs AC Gilbert or Lionel vs MTH
Were lionel and American Flyer taking eachother to court like MTH and Lionel have today?
Hello John W!
The answer to your question is yes! Lionel & Flyer did have some lawsuits & they were usually resolved out of court & did not last for years like the current one is now. There were even a couple of lawsuits between Lionel & Marx Believe it or not! One of the lawsuits between Lionel & Marx involved a Transformer of all things & that was settled out of court Between Joshua Cowen & Louis Marx. Take Care.
Wherever money is, you can bet that the lawsuits are not far behind...
Bobby
Don't forget about the "original" domestic fight: Ives Company versus Lionel back in the prewar period. Lionel's 1917 catalog was the source of a series of confrontations between Ives and Lionel in which the catalog clearly (and arguably unfairly) described why Lionel was superior to his competitors by using photos of Ives cars and references to their manufacturing process. Lionel also threatened Ives when the Ives Company began using the term "Standard" in their advertising. It took attorneys a year to settle the matter, but Ives agreed to stop using the term "Standard" in their ads. Of course Lionel would eventually buy out Ives. In the "All Aboard" book by Ron Hollander, Joshua Cowen claimed to have taken the Ives dies and hurled them into the Connecticut River after Lionel took over the Ives Company. Of course this isn't true, but I'd say there was some anger there!
Another factor to consider in with the current animosity is the Internet and these train forums. Years ago, the legal battles were not widely known until they were reported in the newspaper, and likely that report was a summation of the final results. Not a blow-by-blow soap opera.
Now with the Internet and the train forums, information on the latest court proceeding can be posted the very day it happened. And in the same vein, the train buying public can also make commentary (some of it certainly based on personal bias) immediately within hours of a court motion being posted. The train companies are very well aware of the Internet train boards and can also take advantage of them. We don't need the legal proceedings to know that there is very little love between Lionel and MTH... MTH's early advertising illustrated this point clearly.
Also consider that in some respects, many adult train buyers have become something of a Frankenstein Monster: Not happy with what is available and always making requests for the next product to be made, whether practical or not.... and usually NOT. MDK K-Line announced years ago their intention to be Number One, went after the high-end market, lost millions and ended up as Number Zero.
And the other train importers have gone along on this sometimes foolish ride, announcing products that are not ready for market, and making limited run/limited appeal products that they very often lose money on because of all the related new tooling costs - all for the sake of being perceived as "the number one company."
On a humorous note, if any of you are Looney Toons fans as I am, watch the cartoon "Duck Dodgers In The 24-1/4 Century" with Daffy Duck playing the part of Neil Young, Porky Pig as Jerry Calabrese and Marvin the Martian as Mike Wolf... it's a hoot and a half if you watch it from the train company legal battle perspective... and the ending of that cartoon could potentially be too close to the truth!
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Also, in times past, the courts moved much faster than today to settle disputes. Sometimes they took weeks and months.....maybe even a year but not "years" as the courts weren't clogged up with many silly cases that wern't even dreamed up by any lawyer back in the day.
I'm talking about cases in general as being silly, as for this one, I really have not been following the case and have no opinion either way.
One suggestion though, if we went to a loser pays court system, you would see many cases not even get filed. I doubt we will ever see that day!
I also have no Bias in this case. I haven't followed it very much and just hear things on this forum from time to time. A lot of the debates on here can get heated at times. I would say 95% of my collection is Lionel, but most of my lionel is postwar. So I am not affected if someone trashes the new Lionel (94 - pres).
Marty: I agree with your idea of the loser pays court system. Only about 3% of civil cases go as far as a trial and only 55% of plaintiffs win their cases. The second stat bothers me because it shows how many people are full of it. Im sure a portion of these lost cases are due to poor preparation or lack of info by the plaintiff but the numbers are still disturbing.
PostwarMan07 , Not my idea at all as many others have suggested the same thing b4 me. many agree, in fact, except those who are lawyers. And not to get off the train topic but most of these cases also never go to trial for many reasons. My favorite "chicken of the day club member" is the business who pays a settlement they know is bogus but would be cheaper to pay, or have their insurance company pay, versus the possibility of the cost and or bad pr stemming from a possible loss with a trial by jury. thus they give up the cash too easily. In the long run it costs us all.
Don't get me wrong.....I'm not anti lawyers at all. in fact I use several for many family, corporate and real property matters all the time. It would be foolish not to. On the other hand, I would never do this but some would. A toy train falls off the table because you run it too fast, you break your toe and may walk funny the rest of your life. Do you sue MTH or Lionel or who ever made it? No, but someone would try it, especially if it happened to you at a train show and someone else was running the train.
I do think loser pays would be great but nobody at the state and federal levels has big enough "u know whats" to publicy mention that they would be in favor of it!
I agree in full. I guess it's not 100% logical to have a loser pays system because our legal system is not perfect. The right rulings are not always made.
Also, I'm surprised that williams never took advantage of this situation. They could have trashed lionel and mth for doing all this legal fighting and create their image as being "the nice guys in the train business". I guess if they did they would be no better than lionel and mth! Anyone ever see any public attempts to do anything like this from williams?
You would have figured someone would have had a field day with all that's gone wrong recently with the "big two"
Williams probably sat this one out knowing that Jerry was probably thinking retirement for some time before actually doing it and selling out.
K-line might have been able to if they knew how to read a balance sheet while the ink was still black.
As for where the heck everyone else was on this......I don't know!
Also, I'm surprised that williams never took advantage of this situation. They could have trashed lionel and mth for doing all this legal fighting and create their image as being "the nice guys in the train business".
That would never fly because Williams has pulled some moves that hurt a lot of dealers. They never recovered from that episode.
But that was then, the situation is changed. With the Williams line in the hands of a company with wide distribution and a positive reputation you can expect their slice of the pie to increase.
All the legal fighting is the result of genuine issues and will continue for some time. There is already one appeal filed and I doubt it will be the last. This won't end soon, so get used to it.
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