Will Lionel ...Add quality or price to K-Line products ?

[mackb4]

 Since the news is out and the countdown clock has begun on the upcoming K-Line catalog from Lionel,what is everybody's final opinion ?

 Is Lionel going to add more quality to the K-Line brand products ?

 Or is Lionel just going to jack the price up on the already quality designed K-Line items their going to offer ?

 

[Jumijo]

I think that the new Lionel-K-Line items will be of the same quality as the old K-Line products. Same manufacturer, just a different seller. I do think they will be more expensive.

Jim 

[Anonymous]

I think that the new Lionel-K-Line items will be of the same quality as the old K-Line products. Same manufacturer, just a different seller. I do think they will be more expensive.

Jim 

That would be my take as well Jim.  Same quality, higher price.  You saw that in the recent vol 2 Lionel Catalog.  My guess is you will see fewer and fewer low priced Lionel offerings as K-Line will become the low price Lionel brand.

[Roger Bielen]

The price will probably go up, though one would think that without having to pay anyone a royalty/licensing fee as K-Line did to Lionel that the price should come down at least that amount.

[Anonymous]

The price will probably go up, though one would think that without having to pay anyone a royalty/licensing fee as K-Line did to Lionel that the price should come down at least that amount.

Never thought of the old licensing fee... maybe Lionel forgot that K-Line was doing this and they are now paying themselves a double licensing fee? 

[RR Redneck]

Well boys, I guess that we'll be findin out here in a about a week's time.

[QM Publishing]

A lot of people forget that K-Line was deeply discounted, often below
original wholesale, during the final year of production. There is
little chance that Lionel could justify the expense of producing new
product runs and sell them at those blow-out rates. My feeling is that
the price will be similar to where the original K-Line retail was at,
though the locomotives may become a little more expensive simply in
keeping with Lionel's own pricing structure in scale items (ie Hudsons,
Mikados, etc). In the end, it will be interesting to see how Lionel
decides to 'niche' the various K-Line products among the broader
offerings in Lionel, Atlas, MTH, and Weaver lines.

[Dr. John]

I think we already have the answer. The K-Line offerings in the current Lionel catalog are significantly more expensive. It is worth noting that some of the K-Line items listed (the 4-6-2 engine, for example) ended up cancelled.

[Buckeye Riveter]

The other night I was packing up some of the Christmas train cars including a K-LINE Snowball Throwing Polar Bear Boxcar.   I realized that this was one of the last cars made by K-LINE so I started just looking at it.  It is really detailed.  It has door locks on the sliding doors and air lines at the couplers.  The magnetic coupler mechanism is also well disguised.  The ladders were also detailed, too. 

I hope we see this quality with the new K-LINE.    BTW, the Polar Bears threw the snowballs without a flaw this Christmas, but low tunnels give then a headache.

[laz 57]

BUCKEYE,  got the same car, really its the wifes, we love it too.

laz57

[Buckeye Riveter]

LAZ, my wife loves anything with the Polar Bears.  We have the handcars, too.  Keeping the spouse happy =  more trains for me!!!

[Anonymous]

I can't understand the thinking behind some of the initial offerings, particularly the now-cancelled 4-6-2 "K-Line By Lionel" engine referenced above. I just can't fathom someone saying, now THAT color scheme is the one I want for the layout; just the ticket.

 

[Jumijo]

I can't understand the thinking behind some of the initial offerings, particularly the now-cancelled 4-6-2 "K-Line By Lionel" engine referenced above. I just can't fathom someone saying, now THAT color scheme is the one I want for the layout; just the ticket.

 

You can't expect to hit a home run every time at bat. Lionel goofed. That's all.

Jim 

[3railguy]

Apart from the trade secret deal, I think part of the reason K-Line folded into Lionel was they attempted to undercut their competition and lost their tails doing it.

[Anonymous]

I can't understand the thinking behind some of the initial offerings, particularly the now-cancelled 4-6-2 "K-Line By Lionel" engine referenced above. I just can't fathom someone saying, now THAT color scheme is the one I want for the layout; just the ticket.

 

You can't expect to hit a home run every time at bat. Lionel goofed. That's all.

Jim 

 

I can go along with that. But heck, I am hardly the person to consult on marketing issues. I wouldn't run one of those NASCAR sets if you paid me - and I'm a near lifelong resident of North Carolina.

[brianel027]

As a long-time fan and buyer of K-Line from the very beginning, I suspect (asmuch as I admire what Calarbese is doing for Lionel) that they will miss the mark. I do hope I'm wrong on this account.

Lionel just doesn't understand what made people choose K-Line products over their's in the first place. It's like letting the lion into the henhouse and expecting the lion to understand how the chicken's did things. K-Line prices were always better than Lionel's and the quality was reasonable given the lower price. K-Line did themselves in with too much expensive new tooling for new products entirely too quickly. I know the later K-Line products got lots of talk... but talk is cheap - new development and tooling isn't. And in the end, many of those "desirable" new K-Line products sold to the one's who say those products were the best, because they were blowouts.

And Lionel having some of the later K-Line folks aboard gives me little encouragement either. I remember Nick Ladd pointing out a new scale K-Line product to me saying "this is gonna be hot." And my first reaction though I kept my mouth shut was "no it's NOT gonna be hot." Lo and behold that item became a blowout very fast and I was right. You can't expect guys who do not run trains to understand what trains guys want who do actually run them.

The catalog will be out soon and we'll then know if the lion actually managed to lay an egg.

[mickey4479]

Probably both. 

Some time ago I purchased a K-Line PRR O scale 0-6-0 steam switcher with TMCC.  It is a nicely detailed loco and runs well.  It was not cheap.  It was one of the higher end K-Line locos as I understand it.  It seemed to me that K-Line came out with some really neat scale steam locos.  The A5 0-4-0 PRR switcher and the USRA Mikado looked good and came with TMCC as an option.  I doubt that Lionel would continue that type of offering now.  As far as rolling stock, I bought 2 scale billboard reefers that were just detailed and nice as the atlas reefers, and in my opinion that is saying something.  To bad K-Line did not make it, but if somebody was going to acquire them eventually, I think Lionel is probably best.

[douellet]

I think Lionel will lay an egg with their K-Line offerings. Who would want an overpriced 4-6-2 lettered K-Line by Lionel? Answer.....Nobody! Offer that same engine at a reasonable price with a good variety of regional roadnames and I bet it would sell. Just like RMT does with their Beeps. As for Lionel being the best company to market former K-Line trains, I'm not so sure. High end scale trains maybe, low end 027 trains no way. I think RMT would have been the better choice.

[Anonymous]

As a long-time fan and buyer of K-Line from the very beginning, I suspect (asmuch as I admire what Calarbese is doing for Lionel) that they will miss the mark. I do hope I'm wrong on this account.

Lionel just doesn't understand what made people choose K-Line products over their's in the first place. It's like letting the lion into the henhouse and expecting the lion to understand how the chicken's did things. K-Line prices were always better than Lionel's and the quality was reasonable given the lower price. K-Line did themselves in with too much expensive new tooling for new products entirely too quickly. I know the later K-Line products got lots of talk... but talk is cheap - new development and tooling isn't. And in the end, many of those "desirable" new K-Line products sold to the one's who say those products were the best, because they were blowouts.

And Lionel having some of the later K-Line folks aboard gives me little encouragement either. I remember Nick Ladd pointing out a new scale K-Line product to me saying "this is gonna be hot." And my first reaction though I kept my mouth shut was "no it's NOT gonna be hot." Lo and behold that item became a blowout very fast and I was right. You can't expect guys who do not run trains to understand what trains guys want who do actually run them.

The catalog will be out soon and we'll then know if the lion actually managed to lay an egg.

Lions don't cluck and chickens don't roar...

I would be more interested to know if Lionel intends to continue producing K-Line opperating accessories and keep the resonably priced.  My guess is they don't, they pull them into the Lionel line and jack the price 50% so they can pay themselves royalties... if Lionel were truly smart they would reduce their prices, didn't Calabrese say they wanted to eliminate blowouts?  If that is the case, then they better darn well lower prices, it is the online dealers that sell at reduced rates that are keeping the hobby going.  I would definitely buy locally, but none of the LHS in the area sell lower than retail, and I learned a long time ago not to pay retail... Now I will if I forget to early buy and can't find what I am looking for, and if I desperately want an item.  There are a couple things I have my eye on, and once the house is built it looks like I will be paying higher than retail to get my hands on some of them... oh well... the wife will learn!

[dougdagrump]

I'd be willing to bet a dollar to a doughnut that the prices will be a bit higher, afterall that was one of the reasons behind K-Line's demise. As to what will be sold that will be shown in a few days.

[brianel027]

Doug, I beg to differ. Lower prices were a big part of K-Line's marketing strategy. Had their list prices been equal to Lionel's they probably wouldn't have had the sales they did have.

The problem was too much new expensive tooling all aimed at the high end buyer, and all issued too fast to allow those products to generate the revenue needed to pay for the tooling. With all the overall indsutry wide emphasis on these high end products, there are simply not enoguh buyers for all of them, without some of them having to become blowouts. Read those wish lists on the OGR forum.... the vast majority of them are selfish, impractical, not worth bringing to market and will NEVER generate the necessary sales to pay for their development. Unless they are priced accordingly to those investment costs - and they means no one will buy them.

For example, there's a lot of moaning wishing there was a scale sized centercab switcher available. There IS! But it's brass and it's NOT cheap. But it's made and availalble. You can't have it both ways.... the train companies cannot make everything that buyers say they want, and sell those items at prices that reflect a mass market interest. The Lionel Dockside Switcher is probably priced lower than Lionel would wish. But the lower price along with the compromises in scale detail gives it appeal to both high and low end buyers. Meaning it has the potential to make money!

K-Line also more or less abandoned the non-scale, traditionally sized product buyers who had been the back-bone of their sales, until the very end. (And the Hsky line was a wasted effort that was only done because the tooling was previously made by the Chinese). The brew-ha-ha with K-Line's theft of Lionel engineering material was just another nail in the coffin that speeded the process up. That and the utterly poor handling of the original agreement between Lionel and MDK, which sealed their fate.

Another huge mistake was the later KCC offerings. Originally the KCC was a brilliant marketing move. The MP-15 diesel at $45 was a marvelous idea. The MP-15 had already been available, and now was at a bargain price to gain sales from those who already had them, and to entice those who had none to try one. Then the KCC started offering items from totally new tooling at bargain prices. So people bought the Trainmaster and the GG1 and the A5 in droves. But when those same items were offered in the normal catalogs at regular prices, did they sell as well? Probavbly not because buyers decided to wait for the next bargain priced KCC offering. K-Line was trying to please the most difficult to please segment of the market. The unjust criticism over details on the A5 and last issued SD90MAC illustrate that point, especially at the bargain level price point of those items. The scale buyers wanted the sky and the moon, but didn't want to pay for it.

The scale product introductions should have been cut by half, and the neat accessores iintroduced at the very end should have come out long before some of the other products. Far more attnetion should have been placed on the traditonal products, issuing them in new roadnames and making improvements to existing products. The rotating beacon tower was successfully improved. The barrel loader, diesel fuel station and switchman's tower could have all been easily modified to make them far better accessories at minimal cost. K-Line's road name offerings were far too focused on reproduction of postwar favorites, and then K-Line reissed those many times. The majority of the original Train-19 cars had all been previously made.... just dumb planning.

And I do very much agree that RMT would do more and would probably have great success with some of those early K-Line 027 traditional products. I'd betthat doughnut that RMT could have great success with some of those very same K-Line offerings from the MARX/Kusan origin tooling if they had access to it. Lionel could probalby have success too if they put the effort into it. Lionel should take a lesson from RMT with the success they have already had with their few limited products. But I doubt they will. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

[fifedog]

LIONEL wouldn't dare raise their prices. RRRIIGHT?!  That 's why they closed down their AMERICAN manufacturing plant in favor of mainland CHINA, to better keep up with market demands. RRRIIGHT?!

My less than educated guess is that they will take K-LINE's lead in repackaging LEMAX products and selling them at a high price. Anyone wanna bet?

I just hope there is more packaging.  We need more packaging.  RRRIIGHT?!

[Anonymous]

 Of course Lionel will jack the prices sky high ... they no longer have K-Line with all the same quality or even better ... to compete with . And the thousands of buyers with plastic cards in hand and little common sense will keep letting them do it ! I think it was that more people did'nt realize K-Line was a great buy and went other directions at the cash register. They were the only manufacturer that had all the bells and whistles with little to none of the severe problems of the other train company . " NOT TO MENTION NAMES OR BE ACCUSED OF BASHING " but buyers kept buying inferior engines with all kinds of problems from the wrong company . In my opinion the wrong company went down ! Now Lionel has no real threat from anyone . Their Lionel/K-Line engines are superb and extremely reliable and that's what I look for and will pay a abit more for . I don't want to buy an engine brand new and have to keep ripping it apart to change internal electronics and soundboards to do what should have been done at the factory . One company gave us an almost perfect unit and one gave us a faulty -- outdated -- unreliable one and kept telling us the next one will be better and never rectified the lousey ones --- and many bought them anyway . Don't blast Lionel ... it was the dim wittedness of the consumer who did this to themselves . It was a sad day when K-Line went down and we'll pay the price from now on.