I bought an MTH z750 for the added power for my nephews' layout and just realized it has no accessory posts. So Lionel is not the only guilty one here.
Mike s.
This is my opinion only....for what it's worth.
I have 2 CW80s, a KW & LW. The CWs perform well, as I have 2 independant loops of track with 1 TMCC & 1 Powermaster. I hooked up the KW to the Powermaster and the difference is night & day. The KW has a pure sine, and appears to power the powermaster much better than the CW. You can purchase a new transformer, but I would suggest an older transformer with the surge protection that a lot of the people use here ( I don't use it yet, however).
The costs are close if not a little cheaper (my KW was $55 & LW was $50), and according to the "experts" the KW is more powerful than the ZW.
My
Rich
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
It should be clear that any transformer can run out of power if one adds enough motors/lamps/accessories to the layout. It is traditional to talk about watts, but this can be misleading because "postwar" transformers were rated by their inputs whereas most "modern" transformers are rated by their outputs.
Postwar transformers can be driven beyond their design limits -- especially when the circuit-breaker gots old and unreliable. Overdriving can result in overheating with subsequent damage to the transformer -- even meltdown/fire in the worst case imaginable. Modern transformers such as the CW80 begin to cut back their output ("fold-back") when they reach their rated output. They cannot be overdriven.
"PowerMax" is the name given to transformers included only with certain starter sets. It looks similar to a CW80 but is actually quite different, as stated many times above. As far as I know they have been reliable but do not produce much power. The CW80's come in two "flavors," early production and recent production. The early ones were fraught with problems, including internal mis-wiring and poor quality-control. Lionel finally fixed this with revised CW80's that began appearing in mid 2006. They seem to be both reliable and of better quality-control, but the owner's manuals remain confusing and misleading to this day. Edit: I struck through this last assertion because I learned today that the Owner's Manual for the CW80 has finally been revised. It appears online at the Lionel website (www.lionel.com) under Customer Service. (I say "finally" because I called and wrote Lionel about this over two years ago.) Its part number is 71-4198-250 with a date of 1/07. It applies to the revised CW80's and is much improved.
Transformers that produce "pure" sine-wave outputs seem to run postwar equipment more quietly than modern transformers do. Whistle/Horn/Bell circuits are also quite different and are a whole other subject.
Here is a link to a chart that allows one to estimate the amount of power-draw (in watts) that a variety of "postwar) train-related devices require. Many operators badly underestimate how much power even a modest layout requires. It adds up very quickly. For example, a heavy postwar O-guage locomotive with an "average" string of cars requires more power (35-40 watts) than the little "PowerMax" is able to produce. Modern locomotives and a short string of lightweight, non-illuminated cars, can be driven by the PowerMax -- but just barely. There is virtually no extra power for accessories, and there are no accessory jacks to connect them.
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/ps2.pdf
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. --Erasmus
Thank you Skinner,
That link was helpful. What suggestion do you have for powering just accsesories? Should more than one transformer be used? Another subject I want to touch on is the accsesorie input on the back of the cw. They say it is independent of the throttle but I notice when the accsesories connected are on the track power seams to lessen. why is this? Thank you for all the help you guys provide.
Stevin
n1vets333,
Before I try to answer your question please tell me the number on the bottom of your CW80 transformer -- the one that is next to "Made in China." it may be a four character numeral, or a five character alpha-numeric. Then I will give it a try.
Another tip: on some forums you may search (or "find") the archives for info (and mis-info) under CW-80 or CW80. The latter term is the only one that works on this forum, which is why I drop the hyphen when referring to it, even though it's slightly less than Kosher Lionel terminology.
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. --Erasmus
n1vets333 wrote: Thank you Skinner, That link was helpful. What suggestion do you have for powering just accsesories? Should more than one transformer be used? Another subject I want to touch on is the accsesorie input on the back of the cw. They say it is independent of the throttle but I notice when the accsesories connected are on the track power seams to lessen. why is this? Thank you for all the help you guys provide. Stevin
Stevin,
The accessory output on the back of the CW80 is independent of the throttle for control purposes, but the accessory output and the track output still provide power from the same step down transformer. You have a total of 80 watts available combined. If You have a lot of lights or other accessories connected and say for example they draw 35 watts, then you have available 45 watts to power the the track.
I Hope that this makes sense,
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!
Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.
You're right, Stevin, that the ZW is more powerful. However, the numbers you cite are in units of power--watts--not volts.
Bob Nelson
First of all it's "watts" (or volt-amps) not "volts." Second, those numbers refer to input rather than output, so you need to multiply each of them by roughly 0.7 to compare with modern transformers. Some modern transformers with "cropped" sine wave outputs add a further complication.
As I understand it, the issue of which is "more powerful" refers to the fact that the ZW has four output terminals whereas the KW only has two. On a per terminal basis, the "190 watt" KW can deliver about 67 watts whereas the postwar (275 watt) ZW can only deliver about 48 watts; however, this has always struck me as nonsense because it ignores how the power is distributed to the various terminals. Each terminal, by itself, with no load on the other terminals, will provide full output, i.e., roughly 133 watts for the KW; 192 for the postwar ZW. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong about the basic principle; but let's not quibble about a stray watt or two from the calculations, OK?) Also, the output voltage of the ZW may be a (relatively insignificant) volt or two higher than some KW's.
Note: I see that my post crossed with Lionelsoni's. Sorry about that.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. -Erasmus
n1veta333,
Because the original and the revised CW80's are sooooooo different, I worry that I might be misleading if I start giving advice without knowing which version is "in play." 2006 was the year of the change, so I can't know for certain whether you have an old one or a revised one.
If you have a multimeter that will measure ohms, you can do this simple test. Disconnect the power cord and remove all wires from all ouput terminals. Then measure the resistance across terminals U and U, and again across A and B. If the resistance across U and U is zero, you have a revised one. (Another way of stating this is that U and U are "common.") If the resistance across A and B is zero, you have an older one, and A and B are "common."
As for your general question, "Challenger" pretty much nailed it. I can only refer you to the horse's mouth -- that is the Owners Manual dated 1/07. This version is pretty good overall, and the only real problem is that the hook-up instructions should vary between the revised CW's and the old ones, but they don't. If you have a revised one there is no problem. Quote:
Your CW-80 Transformer provides a total output of five amps. The track outputs will deliver all of this power to the track when no accessories are connected to the Transformer.
Keep in mind that connected accessories borrow some of this power. For example, if the accessories require two amps of the total five-amp capacity of the Transformer, you have three amps available for track power. This built-in flexibility will provide power for virtually any small to medium-sized railroad. Also, available voltage depends on how much load is on the two outputs. Generally, track voltage and accessory voltage are 0-16 volts (AC) each.
This Transformer is capable of operating trains up to and including dual-motored AC engines. To operate at this level of track power, it may be necessary to disconnect any accessories. You may also want to attempt to lower the accessory voltage settings. Refer to the "Setting the accessory output" section.
You may momentarily approach or exceed the five-amp limit of the CW-80 Transformer when pulling illuminated cars, fighting over grades with heavy loads, or operating accessories.
When you reach five amps, the green light on the Controller will begin to flash. This indicates that the Transformer is in "fold-back mode." In fold-back mode, the Transformer is automatically reducing, or folding back, power. This gradual reduction in power provides interruption-free power while bringing the amperage back down to a safe level.
Note: I have changed the structure of the paragraphing just a tad in order to make this material a little easier to read. The bottom line is that on the CW80, the throttle-voltage and the programmable fixed-voltage accessory outputs are more-or-less independent, but as your particular load approaches the maximum capacity of the device it begins to bog down. "An ebbing tide lowers all boats." Hope this helps.
I see now, so the zw will divide 275 amongst 4 outputs where as the kw is sharing 190 amongst 2 outputs making a single kw output more powerful. So would the kw be a better choice in my situation since I have a moderate size layout and will only be powering 2 seperate blocks to run 2 trains? I could than just use my cw for all acsesories. One more thing when I make the switch to tmcc could that kw be used to still power the layout? Thank you for all the help you guys have been great. This is a wonderful forum for the exchange of information. Thank you
"...the zw will divide 275 amongst 4 outputs where as the kw is sharing 190 amongst 2 outputs making a single kw output more powerful."
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here, but it doesn't seem quite correct to me. The prewar ZW is more powerful than the KW -- period. It can deliver all of it's power to any of it's output terminals. But there is no free lunch. The first train will consume a certain amount of power. A second train or a bunch of accessories will consume some of the remaining power available. The ZW doesn't simply divvy-up its total power and distribute it in equal shares to each of the four throttled outputs. Similarly for the KW and its two throttled outputs and its several fixed-voltage outputs.
As a general rule, a KW is likely to be less expensive than a postwar ZW of equal quality, but my preference is and always has been for the ZW. It will do virtually everything that a KW will do, is better looking, and is considerably easier to service -- all my personal opinions. For the record, I have both types. (I have no experience with TMCC.)
Good luck with your choices.
I personally am not a big fan of the KW.
I used one as my main power source for about four years, but never was too terribly fond of it then. Back in November, I bought a ZW, and put my KW up on Ebay the same day. I've never looked back.
The lower power was never of any consequence to me, as I never came anywhere close to needing the full output of the KW. I never liked the case style, and especially not the fact that most any servicing required bending tabs(which break eventually). Moving one handle would always make the other one move.
My biggest quibble, though, was the fact that the fixed voltage posts were all but useless.
The KW has two fixed voltage posts, one at a potential 6 volts above common, and one 20 volts above common. This means that connecting an accesory across these two posts would give 14 volts, which is just about right for most accesories.
In the interest of reliable operation, all of my switches are powered by fixed voltage rather than from track power. The way Lionel's O22 switches are set up, they must share a return with the track common. This means that using the U posts for track common(outer rail) on the KW, it's only possible to supply either 6 volts or 20 volts to the O22 switches. 6 volts, of course, is way too low, and 20 volts is uncomfortably high for me(even with 18 volts bulbs, 20 volts would melt the lanterns).
The alternative is to use the "C" post on the KW as common, which would allow one to get 14 volts relative to common out of the "D" post. The only problem with this is that it limits the maximum output voltage from the A and B posts to 14 volts also, which is way too low for the trains I run(as well as for command control).
In addition, I also like to run my UCS and RCS tracks independent of track voltage. It is possible to wire these on a KW to give 14 volts to the magnet and across the control rails. The issue with this, though, is that all coil-type couplers and some operating cars are grounded to the track common.
With my ZW, I use one of the small "thumb" handles to power the switches, and the other one to power the UCS/RCS tracks.
To try to make this endless thread current, based on data from the Lionel website (specifically http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/findex.cfm) I offer the following:
There are now at least four Lionel transformer/controllers, three of which are each built into in a single case, and one two-piece unit. The cases are all quite similar in outward appearance, although what's inside varies greatly. Not all are in current production, but may be available on the after-market:
1. CW-80: there are two distinct versions: original and revised: Per Lionel, they share the following characteristics:
Product number 6-14198; 18 volt, 5 amp, 80 volt-amps; programmable accessory outputs.
The the two versions differ in their internal wiring, which determines how they should be connected to the layout, among other issues:
1a. CW-80 Original version: Terminals A and B are common ("ground") whereas U and U are "hot." Typically they have a Made in China date containing four characters; for example, 1104 signifying Novermber 2004. See online owners manual 71-4198-251, dated 2/03. Opinion: These were fraught with problems.
1b. CW-80 Revised version: Terminals U and U are are common ("ground") whereas A and B are hot. Typically they have a Made in China date containing five alphanumeric characters; for example, G1106, signifying November 2006. See online owners manual #71-4198-250, dated 6/08. Opinion: These seem to be quite reliable. In my experience they will run postwar dual-motor locos but with not a lot of power left over for illuminated passenger cars, etc.
2. PowerMax. Product number 6-14275; 18 volt, 1.8 amp, 30 volt-amps; no accessory outputs; U is common, A is hot; owners manual is number 71-4275-250, dated 6/06.
3. PowerMax Plus. No product number listed online as of 4/23/08. 18 volts, 2.4 amps, 40 volt-amps; No accessory outputs; U is common, A is hot; owners manual is # 72-4253-250, dated 12/07; it may have the words Lionel American Legend on the nameplate. (The online manual is inconsistent on this point.)
*4. BW-80 Produced only briefly this was a two part device: a controller in a very similar case to the CW-80 but with a separate power brick; 5 amps, 80 volt-amps.
Notes:
a. I have never seen anything but the two versions of the CW-80 referred to in the official Lonel literature as "CW-xx, where xx might be anything." The PowerMax, PowerMax Plus, and the older BW-80 have their own unique terminology -- as far as I know. They are not "CW's.")
b. According to the Owner's Manuals that are currently online, the U terminal should be connected to an outside rail, whereas the A terminal should be connected to the center rail. The exception to this is the early (pre-revision) CW-80 where the reverse is true, although hookup can still be quite problematic in layouts of certain configurations.
c. There were other versions of the Owner's Manuals both in print and online. They were inconsistent, inaccurate, and plain wrong in certain areas. I urge you to destroy any that you may have and stick to the ones currently online, which you may print out.
d. See the table at the following link that give some of the current requirements (in amps) for various "post-war" lionel devices. By simply adding these up, you can get an approximation of the size of the transformer needed to supply appropriate current to a string of locos, cars and accessories. Modern train components often (but not always) require less current than the older models. This is particulary true when light-emitting diodes (LED's) are substituted for incondescent lamps. In general, however, Illuminated cars, are often heavy, and their multiple pick-up rollers create a lot of drag. http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/ps2.pdf see text in lower portion of page under Circuit Breakers. This may be easier to use than charts that present their data in watts. "Watts" and "volt-amps" are often used interchangeably although strictly speaking they are not, strictly speaking, always precisely equal. Modern Lionel specifications tend to use "volt-amps."
Some of the older devices required higher voltages than some of the new transformers put out. Conversely, in some cases, the old transformers (i.e., postwar ZW's) will not throttle-down low enough to avoid jack-rabbit starts and/or too high speed operation with modern lightweight trains. Many modern transformers will throttle between 0 and 8 volts, which a postwar ZW will not do.
All of the above is subject to possible errors and revisions. For whatever reasons, Lionel recently has tended to make significant changes to its products and literature, and not tell anyone about them. At least that's been my experience.
Edit 1/1/2010 Updated Manual number for the Revised CW-80.
.
Laughter23rdSo what do you guys suggest as a replacement transformer?
The new CW-80's are pretty good. $40-$50 delivered if you are persistent on eBay.
Rob
Laughter23rdSooo... we have a starter Target kit we got in 2006 for $125.00. Um, we just pulled it out of the box tonight, New Year's Eve (12-31-09), and the PowerMax 30w blew after one time around the track. So what do you guys suggest as a replacement transformer?
Look on E-bay for a good postwar transformer. Or try Davis Lyons for a nice rebuilt one:
http://www.lioneltransformer.com/
Virginian Railroad
Nice to see my post of 04-22-2008 once again, even if I do say so myself. I believe it has withstood the test of time. There is a lot of information in it, and it is obvious from the continued posts on the subject that most of you have never srrn it, much less studied it carefully.
If anyone has any additions, subtractions or corrections, let us know and I will be happy to edit the post. I did make a small update-edit this day.
Rob, you can also get some pretty good deals on CW-80s from Lionel dealers who are breaking up sets. Similar to the price range you mention. Bill Miller, a dealer from NJ, usually always has several for sale at the mid-Atlantic train shows (inc. York) that he attends.
Schwinnyou can also get some pretty good deals on CW-80s from Lionel dealers
There are several dealers doing just that on eBay.
Just make certain that you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I only recommend the Revised or "G-prefix" model; but one of the original non-revised versions may suit your needs perfectly. You can still find either version marked "New in the box." I have only seen one seller mark an offering "Revised 'G" version, or words to that effect. If the difference isn't important to you, you may be able to pick up early CW-80's at fire-sale prices, great for trains or accessories but not necessarily both..
Note many of the sellers claim not evern to know that their are two versions. If you want a "G" version you may have to ask. Also beware of CW-80s being offered with no cord or throttle handle. These have almost certainly malfunctioned and been replaced by Lionel. Insist on a money-back guarantee. Unless you are a world-class risk-taker, avoid anyone, dealer or not, who says "I have no way of testing it."
If you want a CW-80 make certain that you get an actual CW-80. The PowerMax and the PowerMax Plus appear very simililar, especially in photos taken from the front. The briefly-produced BQ-80 has a good reputation for reliability. It has slightly fewer features than the CW-80 and come with two components: a controller plus a brick. I have seen several vendors who use pictures of the BW-80 when they are actually offering CW-80's, and possibly vice-versa.
Wouldn't it be easier and SAFER and probably cheaper to just buy a postwar transformer and not have to worry about all the issues concerned with the CW80 transformer? The postwar transformers are rock solid reliable and have more than enough power for most purposes.
Sure -- where power is the only issue, and features.versatility and safety to both operator and solid-state equipment, are not important. I have several of them myself, along with new power cords, Sound Activation Buttons, fuses, TVS diodes etc. I love 'em all, and I use them to run post-war stuff all the time. But day to day, I use my CW-80's. (If you mean by SAFETY an extremely low probability of getting a lemon, I'd still go with the G-version, but see below. But as for SAFETY of the grandchildren --NO WAY. Others may choose a different path.
As I have said, when I first began posting about theses things, I tried to speak only to those folks who already owned an original version CW-80's, generally acquired from sets. I never recommended that anyone go out and buy one until the "G-prefix" version came out.
If I were just starting out, and needed a medium-power transformer, I would probably choose a revised CW-80, but I'd seriously consider a MTH Z-1000 (perhaps the most versatile of them all and likely the Best Buy (although it lacks a couple of my favorite features ot the CW-80) or possibly an Atlas or a Williams -- if I could actually find one. I'd use TVS Diodes with all of them, unless it was absolutely clear that the device provided protection against BOTH over-current and over-voltage. I run "conventional" only. I never comment on the fancy, high-end stuff..
I have never been a fan of the PowerMax, except maybe as a dedicated accessory transformer. In fact, I coined the term PowerPuff right here on this forum. Nevertheless, I'd be interested in exactly what you were powering with it when it blew. Was it only the set it came with, or did you have other stuff hooked up to it? Were they any derailments or other "excitements" before or as it died?
BFSKINNER I pulled out my powermax from my nascar set and plugged it in and the green light started blinking this was befor I even hooked up any wires.( by the way this was just 2 weeks ago Christmas eve) prior to that it has been in its sealed box and i called Lionel and more or less told me to bad
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
rtraincollector BFSKINNER I pulled out my powermax from my nascar set and plugged it in and the green light started blinking this was befor I even hooked up any wires. That can't be a good sign. ( by the way this was just 2 weeks ago Christmas eve) prior to that it has been in its sealed box and i called Lionel and more or less told me to bad Over the years, I have repeatedly advised people with new electronic devices (by no means limited to Lionel transformers) to open them up and test them well before Christmas in order not to be disappointed on the "big day." What you are saying is that yours sat in an unopened box for three years. Lionel is likely to be standing on a strict interpretation of its one-year-from-date-of-purchase written warranty. Try sending an e-mail or even snail-mail (no phone) to Mike Reagan, Director of Customer Service, and telling him what you just told us. Maybe something will come of it. (I have suggested this a couple of times in the past but no one has ever fed back any results, so I have no data as to the probability of success; nor do I have any influence over him. What I do know from direct personal experience is that he has always treated me fairly. Bear in mind that it's his busy season. Good luck.
BFSKINNER I pulled out my powermax from my nascar set and plugged it in and the green light started blinking this was befor I even hooked up any wires.
That can't be a good sign.
( by the way this was just 2 weeks ago Christmas eve) prior to that it has been in its sealed box and i called Lionel and more or less told me to bad
Over the years, I have repeatedly advised people with new electronic devices (by no means limited to Lionel transformers) to open them up and test them well before Christmas in order not to be disappointed on the "big day." What you are saying is that yours sat in an unopened box for three years.
Lionel is likely to be standing on a strict interpretation of its one-year-from-date-of-purchase written warranty.
Try sending an e-mail or even snail-mail (no phone) to Mike Reagan, Director of Customer Service, and telling him what you just told us. Maybe something will come of it. (I have suggested this a couple of times in the past but no one has ever fed back any results, so I have no data as to the probability of success; nor do I have any influence over him. What I do know from direct personal experience is that he has always treated me fairly. Bear in mind that it's his busy season.
Good luck.
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