Difficult math problem

[FJ and G]

I'm planning a 60X20 foot toy train layout for my backyard, complete with real pond and waterfalls.

To make a mistake in locating the pond, etc, would be more tragic than a simple indoor layout.

To plan this out better, I'd like to first design an N-scale fully-working replica of the backyard, complete with the pond (epoxy of course) and real running trains.

Here's the problem:

The O scale (1:48) will take up approx. 60X20 ft of space.

What will the N scale (1:160) layout take up in feet (or inches) of space?

Thanks.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Try 18' x 6'

[yelliss]

I agree with buckeye
60 x 48 =2880 scale ft. / 160 = 18ft. at "nscale"
20 x 48 = 960 scale ft. / 160 = 6 ft. at "n scale"

ellis[:)]

[lionelsoni]

You might want to investigate whether you can get sharp enough curves in N to match the O. For example, an O27 curve corresponds to a 3 3/4-inch radius in N. You have to go to O72 to get past a 10-inch radius. So I think this will work only if you are planning some pretty gentle curves (by O standards) for the outdoor version.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, Buck has the right size. At first it sounded large for N scale, but then I figured out why. Normally when we draw plans, we use a fractional inch per foot as our scale of choice. That gives us an extra factor of 12.

Personally, I think you are better off sticking with paper for planning purposes. At a scale of 3/8" per foot, you will still need 22.5 inches of paper for the long dimension. Paper larger than that gets to be a pain.

I chose 3/8" because, each 1/32" is an inch. So with a good ruler, you can easily scale off your drawing. I think you can even get graph paper with that size grid.

Save the money for the real layout.

[FJ and G]

THanks guys! I'm flabbergasted at how big an N scale layout would have to be. The backyard, then, sure seems like the place to run some really long mainline O scale stuff!!!

I'll design the pond by looping a garden hose around an area to see how it works. Waterfalls + pond + garden then trains. Patience!

[Roger Bielen]

Dave, check the yellow pages for drafting/engineering supply stores, they carry a variety of graph paper sketch pads. In my previous life I remember getting 1/4" grids as large as 36" X 24". 18" X 24" is a convenient size to work with. They may have 1/8" grids but I'm not sure about 1/32".

[FJ and G]

Hi Roger,

I was thinking real modeling (modeling a model of a model) vice paper or even CAD. Real models really demonstrate how the prototype will look. Thanks, though, your suggestion is excellent anyway and may include that.

Some modelers even put up cardboard dummies of buildings.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Dave, from my experiences of building outdoors, one does not need to be as precise as when you are building a layout indoors. You can move things or reconstruct structures very easily. The hardest part are the grades because you can't use C-Clamps. Many times I have changed out a piece of track to another size on the fly, just to make it look or work better. Last night I moved a Malibu Light to see if I liked the light higher or lower.

[Anonymous]

It will take 18 x 6 ft.

[spankybird]

[#welcome] Hi Jim, Welcome to the CTT forum [#welcome]

[lionelsoni]

We stand corrected. I was sure it was 18 by 6...;-)

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

Try 18' x 6'

Bob, Well, how do you think I feel for being so wrong? [:(]
And yes, Jim welcome to the CTT Forum. If you have any questions on how the forum operates, Spankybird Tom is the pro.

[FJ and G]

Buckeye,

Actually, do need precision as planning a reinforced concrete pond and stream and that will determine the shape of the RR. Actually, planning both together. Hard to move a concrete pond. Also considering a liner pond but the most they're guaranteed for is 30 years and BB the beagle likes to dig.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

Buckeye,

Actually, do need precision as planning a reinforced concrete pond and stream and that will determine the shape of the RR. Actually, planning both together. Hard to move a concrete pond. Also considering a liner pond but the most they're guaranteed for is 30 years and BB the beagle likes to dig.

Dave, your tolerances for this type of construction is about plus or minus one inch. Yes, first build the pond. Make sure it is not leaking and the pumps are working. The pond may even move on you over a season with frost heave, but it is not a big deal. The pond liner will more than take care of any movements.

The track roadbed can be very easily constructed around the pond. The roadbed can be modified very easily and cheaply. For roadbed construction outside, see this web page: http://www.btcomm.com/trains/primer/roadbed/ladder1.htm This is what several of the professional builders are using in commercial outdoor exhibits.

and if there is a "gap" you throw dirt and rock at it.

[FJ and G]

Thanks Buckeye, That is MOST helpful!

I've been trying to come up with just such a plan and this is perfect!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Buck, that's a pretty neat construction method for outdoor use.

Dave don't build a concrete pond, use the rubber liner style. Kits are available at Home depot, and are easy and inexpensive.

Concrete pond, reminds me of the Beverly Hillbillys.[swg]

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Buck, that's a pretty neat construction method for outdoor use.

Elliot, I have seen the roadbed used around Columbus for several years. The Franklin Park Conservatory's Garden RR and the new Easton Town Center's Layouts, both professionally built, use this system. Several of the members of the Central Ohio Garden RR Society use this type of roadbead.

The one thing I think I would consider changing is the post that goes into the ground. I would like to try a 1" - 1.5" Heavy Duty PVC Pipe with a set screw. It seems to me holding the grade would be easier by adjusting the set screw.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Buck, at one time I considered doing a garden railroad. Now it's all I can do to keep my lawn mowed. I have enough railroad in my basement to keep me busy for at least this lifetime. Beside, I don't have to worry about the weather in the basement. [swg]

Beware PVC pipe in cold weather. Even the heavy electrical stuff can shatter. Who was it that once told me that "wood is a very forgiving material"?[;)]

[lionelsoni]

Ordinary white PVC deteriorates in sunlight unless painted. The gray PVC conduit is not supposed to.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

Ordinary white PVC deteriorates in sunlight unless painted. The gray PVC conduit is not supposed to.

Bob, It's easy even for the electrical challenged to tell the difference. You walk into Home Depot or Lowes. Head toward the electrical section. Find some PVC conduit. Read the label to see if it is for indoor, outdoor or both. Buy the outdoor. Go home. [8D]

I have now had white PVC supports holding up my G Scale Roadbed for over a year through rain, snow, ice, ninety degree heat and a massive tree landing on the layout without any type of problem. You can see the white PVC supports holding up the Mainline Enterprise Roadbed in the photo below.

Mainline Roadbed is expensive but the concept is sound. It is based upon the PVC supports. The actual roadbead material is a foam of some sort. I was told it is the same material that they make wood looking signs out of for store fronts.

Yes, Elliot, wood is forgiving, but it is very hard to pound through the heavy clay soils in Central Ohio. [:D] In fact, the PVC wasn't so easy either.

[lionelsoni]

The Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association seems to want to have it both ways:

"Can PVC pipe be exposed to the sun?
"PVC does not readily degrade when exposed to sunlight (ultraviolet radiation) due to natural UV inhibitors present in the material. Short-term exposure to sunlight, such as during construction, is typically not a problem for PVC pipe. PVC piping may be used in outodoor [sic] applications when the piping system is painted with a light-colored water based acrylic or latex paint that is chemically compatible with PVC. When painted, the effects of UV exposure are significantly reduced."

[Buckeye Riveter]

I don't think my Garden RR will last for more than 100 years, so I'm not too concerned. In fact if I discovered that a pipe was deteriorated, I would spend the $1.15 for a five foot section and replace it. Of course, I would probably need to file for bankruptcy soon afterwards due to this enormously expensive burden I have placed upon my family.