Dunhams Studios Layouts

[Dave Farquhar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dlagrua
I would think that for $80,000 to $100,00 a customer should receive the best-a custom built "one of a kind" layout, that has original structures and considers some scale appearance.
While many look up to Dunham as a premier layout builder, his creations look toyi***o my eyes and no where close to the spectacular and realistic look of the great classic layouts of Ellison., Allen, Botzow & Miller. Since this is just my opinion, I'd like to hear yours.

It all depends on what the person who commissioned the design wanted. If the person wanted a toy train layout and Dunham delivered what you describe, they failed.

It's only fair to judge Dunham's abilities to deliver a scale-like layout if that was what the person asked for in the first place. And even when you go down that path, it's all subjective. Some people will object to that third rail. Some people will object that the track is five scale feet wide. (4'8.5" in 1:48 isn't 1.25 inches!) Some will object to the size of the layout--even if it fills the basement, it only represents a handful of square miles and no Class 1 railroad would operate on something that small. If someone's willing to look hard enough, it's possible to find fault with any layout.

All model railroads involve some degree of compromise. For some people, perfect scale appearance and real railroad operations is the ultimate. But it bores other people to tears. If someone is bored with that type of a layout, then why should it be forced on them? Layouts are a very personal thing.

Personally, I've thought the Dunham layouts I've seen looked pretty good, but as far as capturing a "perfect blend of toy and hi-rail," as CTT has called them...? Personally, if I were commissioning a layout from them I'd want to go with a lot more toy and a lot less hi-rail.

[Anonymous]

For $35,000 you could have 16 and one half Lionel Acela sets or that layout in OGR. This is a rich man's hobby as are most other hobbys don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

I myself can't afford one of these Acela sets or even one of those regular priced $300 engines that seemingly everyone in this hobby has. I don't gripe about this I am happy with my one Lionel Docksider and soon will get a K-line Porter to (If anyone wants to donate a K-line Shay I will happily accept it I don't even care about the livery.). As space is an issue this is fine by me.

I like looking at others work and I have always liked Dunhams work since I saw the Citybank layout in my first MR magazine(Dec 1988 I think). I thought one of the most interesting passages in the article was on page 62 where it was stated that layouts take 2 to 3 months to build. With a year backorder (now more I am sure with the publicity). I dont think most people could make a layout this well in this short a period of time. To top it off the actual installation on site was done in one day.

The one off structures that some people want take much longer than a timetable like this one would allow. If time is more important these can be added later replacing temporary stand-in structures. This hobby has a long history of never ending rebuilds. I don't see why one built this way is any different. Dunham himself even replaced whole sections of the Citibank layout.

An interesting comparison between this article and the Sam Posey Book may be interesting. In the really great read and clear, somewhat distanced take on this hobby as a whole "Playing with Trains" Sam Posey wanted a layout but couldn't do some very necessary things like wireing and track laying. So he hired somone from his hobby shop to help him and team built the layout. Is this looked down upon by others here. Does everyone have to do every thing themselves for it to be thier layout? Does every hobbyist have to invent thier own wheel design. It is not as if the layouts built by Dunham are built by robots in a factory in China like the trains that run on them are. If one wanted to take the built in America stand these are more American than the trains. Lionel and Diorama Studios built layouts are highly prized today as collectors items maybe the Dunham ones will be tomorrow.

In the early winter of 2001 I had just moved to NYC and was exploring. I stumbled onto the mall under the Citbank building and there it was, the station was being set up that weekend. I sat at a table on the balcony and watched the team bring in sections and connect them and touch up spots. The team had about 20 people in it and it was very organized. When I left I went out the side doors and watched them take sections out of the trucks. They were packed in like Tetris pieces. Really cool to see. I went back the next weekend with friends who had kids. The kids loved it and I saw things that impressed me as well. Layouts like this give a good face to the hobby. More people have the opportunity to see this than will go down into someones basement to a superdetailed and accurate to the inth degree labor of love. Thats fine, no one wants a million people in their basement breaking / stealing stuff anyway.

As far as the stylized backdrops I like them. I wish more people did things like this. It is more fun than what passes for "realism" on most layouts I see. I feel like this type of thing is fun and it is good to not always see the same thing. I would love to see more far out layouts. Make Futuristic layouts that would fit well with the "Phantom" Locomotives or the L.A.S.E.R. sets from the 80's. Stange layouts that would go with the Black Cave Flyer set and the Transylvania engine. Variety is the spice of life and I wish I saw more of it.

[Anonymous]

Here's a Dunham creation for the North Creek Depot Railway Museum. Check out Dunham's website http://www.dunhamstudios.com for other examples of this talented designer's work.

[Anonymous]

DennisB:
What I see in Dunhams work is again my opinion, just like everything else here.. Must I agree with you or am I permitted to have my own opinion.? If you like Dunhams work so much, send him your money!!
I am very familiar with Clarke Dunham, having met him and his wife in NY at their Citicorp center display during Christmas Time. They are certainly nice folks. I've also been to his website a few times.
Quite frankly the layouts of Ellsion, Allen, Botzow, & Miller were all better than what Dunham has built.. I'm only a mediocre modeler but most everything on my layout is built from scratch. ( at 1/50th the price) and later this year you will see what I mean when I unvail the new Delta Lines.
Dunhams layouts are colorful, well designed and operate well but he advertises himself as " the expert" an authority on layout building so to speak. When you put the spotlight on yourself as an expert, and charge for the best , people must expect exactly that. I see NOTHING in Dunhams work that is indicative of a Broadway set designers work. Rather I see a lnice ayout built with many of the same items and techniques that the basement model railroader would use, neatly arranged perhaps with nice carpentry, but just a nice toy "plasticville" style train layout with minimal art. Most of Dunhams layouts employ a cartoon "Wizard of Oz "style backdrop, so please tell me where are pictures of the realistic original backdrop art that you mention exist. My point is simple, if you pay for a Rolls Royce, shouldn't you expect one?

[Anonymous]

"What I see in Dunhams work is again my opinion, just like everything else here.. Must I agree with you or am I permitted to have my own opinion.?"
---------------------------

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, even if the logic is flawed and the reasoning distorted. After all, opinions are like that well-known part of the human anatony: everyone has one.

You don't like Clarke Dunham's work--that is obviously your take on it, and it's certainly your right. But all that really matters is that those who have retained Mr. Dunham to construct a layout for them like his work and feel that they got their moneys worth. To date, I've yet to see, read, or hear of an owner of any Clarke Dunham layout that was dissatisfied with his work or the final result. That speaks volumes!

[Dave Farquhar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dlagrua
if you pay for a Rolls Royce, shouldn't you expect one?

Not if what you wanted was a Lamborghini. You seem to be defining "good" as "realistic."

For you, Frank Ellison was the pinnacle of model railroading. Other people may have other ambitions.

I admire your work. I think your execution is superb and I think it's great that you are able to build such good-looking buildings so inexpensively. But they would look out of place on my layout (which, incidentally, makes Dunham's stuff look photorealistic by comparison). That doesn't make your buildings bad. Maybe that makes my layout bad in your mind. But, like you've said, you're entitled to your opinion.

[Anonymous]

If time is valuable to you then a scratch-built building at a fraction of the price is a misnomer. If you think of your time as worth say $25 an hour that building is going to get expensive fast no matter the cost of material. Even drawing up the plans and deciding what you want takes time.

I would like to see more people making their own fantasy of a layout and not copying someone elses. I really feel that the variance in individual solutions are much more interesting. Frank Sellos' FSM is amazing to me but it does seem like a pretty rotten place to live. The model politicians must be dreaming of urban renewal.

The two major philosophies in this hobby when it comes to layout building are absolutely following the prototype and making it all up. Some people get upset when there model engine is one scale foot too long and ignore the massive compression of their basement transcontinental layout. This is a hobby full of compromises (the most blatant being the fact that it is a model and not real) and individual fantasies lived out on a small scale that's the best part about it.

The Dunham layouts and those like it are an interesting hybrid of the customer and builders visions. It is interesting to see that played out. It is like one person was chosen and their ideal amusement park was made for them by Walt Disney. It is like that person's idea but different, as seen through someone who has more experience making parks.

[Anonymous]

Sorry -duplicated post-

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: I see NOTHING in Dunhams work that is indicative of a Broadway set designers work. Rather I see a lnice ayout built with many of the same items and techniques that the basement model railroader would use, neatly arranged perhaps with nice carpentry, but just a nice toy "plasticville" style train layout with minimal art.. ...so please tell me where are pictures of the realistic original backdrop art that you mention exist. My point is simple, if you pay for a Rolls Royce, shouldn't you expect one?

... I would think that for $80,000 to $100,00 a customer should receive the best-a custom built "one of a kind" layout, that has original structures and considers some scale appearance.
Originally posted by Dennis Lagrua

Gee, I thought the posted picture was a fine example of a realistic original backdrop on a scale detailed layout. This layout is a period recreation of a D & H Branch line with all historically accurate scratch built structures. The price--$100,000.00. Obviously, you see it differently.

One other thought--Ellison was a pioneer in this hobby. His layout was built for prototypical operation. Through his imaginative writings, he was able to convey a realism to his Delta Lines that went far beyond the plaster scenery, hand drawn art board structures and the minimalist painted backgrounds.

Echoing Dave's sentiments, I think it's great that you are recreating his buildings using the methods and materials that were then available to Ellison back in the 40s. There's a certain charm to that very basic style of scratch building. Your talents complement that methodology quite nicely and I look forward to seeing the finished layout.

But I'm in the same situation as Dave--that style would be out of place on my hi-rail layout. That doesn't make one approach better than the other--just different. That's what makes this hobby so great. We are all free to enjoy our own miniature world in whatever manner we choose.

Dennis Brennan

[Anonymous]

Just one last point -the backdrop on the Mistretta layout looks nearly identical to the one on the Dunham layout built for Ralph Fasano.
In closing Dennis B , Frank , Bill and all others: I would like to thank everyone for their comments and I enjoyed this post immensely. There is nothing wrong with divergent opinions or challenging a point that was made and we've all had the opportunity to freely express our views here. You guys are truly the best and a special thanks to trains.com for giving us the opportunity to have a little fun.

[Kooljock1]

Frank Ellison built a nice model railroad. Especially for its time. I've seen many many model railroads over the years including those in Model Railroader magazine.

But Clark Dunham's creation move me on an emotional level.

A model railroad is merely a close recreation of reality, but Clark Dunham's layouts are a surreal creation of a world we wish could be.

To compare the two is like comparing a fine blue-print to a beautiful painting. They serve different purposes well.

Jon [8D]

[Anonymous]

Frank: If I may be permiited to take this post in another direction; the photos that you have posted of the various layouts all really look great and done by amateurs if I am not mistaken.. IMO, photo number three (with the bridgee) deserves special praise. I remember seeing this photo somewhere and the modeler explained that he hand painted that backdrop scene with brush and art colors. What an incredible talent this man has. Do you know who owns this layout? The other photos were also beautiful and when fine art meets model railroading, it's spectacular to my eyes. . How about if you insert those photos in a new post and we can have a discussion on them?

[Anonymous]

Hey, let's agree to disagree!
This is one great thread and It was refreshing to see the direction it took without being censured or deleted.
BillFromWayne

[Frank53]

dennis:

I am an admirer of the skills of these hobbyists. As my permanent layout progress, these are my inspiration to really think things out, take my time and really make it every thing my limited skills can make it.

When I look at thiose layouts and others, knowing they are made by hobbyists, I can say "Iit's possible, and if I really put my mind to it - I can do that"

Conversely, when I see a "professional" layout, I can't really relate. A number of people made it, all with premium skills in their respective areas - with an unlimited budget. For example, I read a comment somewhere that the Tony Lash layout contains $60,000 in TREES. TRees on my train layout is the last thing I would blow 60K on. So for me, I can look at that layout and say "it's neat",

But looking at Ray's layout across the street (North Korea) knowing he built it himself, I would probably spend three days asking questions and complimenting him on HIS work. "How did you do this or that or the other thing"

This is the kind of stuff my Dad would do, as he too was a craftsman, so I guess my feelings on the subject are deeply rooted.

I can envision completing my layout and showing it to my guests and friends. WOuld I rather say "Look what I bought!", or "Look what I built"

no brainer

[Jumijo]

I greatly enjoyed the OGR article on Dunham's custom layout, and learned a lot from it. Kudos to Clarke for being able to make a living for himself and others off of his hobby. His studio does incredible work no matter how one defines it. Some things might not suite other's tastes, and I understand that, but I'd sure like that layout out in my home.

I guess I'm not old-school in my thinking. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a hobbyist to have a layout built and installed by a professional. Why not? Not all of us are into or are any good at building benchwork, wiring, repairing items, etc. Some, like myself, aren't very knowledgable in any of those areas, but we love to run trains. Should a person be denied or ostracized because he can't build a layout? No.

I think Dunham and other pro layout builders are providing a legitimate and beneficial service to hobbyists. And by the number of pro builders out there, and the waiting list time periods quoted, I'd say there is no shortage of people wanting to hire them.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Frank,

I also take great pride in creating my layout. For me it's as much about the journey as it is about operating. I' ve learned about carpentry, electricity, electronics, architecture, engineering, geology, mechanics etc. I love creating scenes and photographing them.

But there's another way to look at professionally built layouts. Like you said, a number of people made it , all with premium skills in their respective areas. But the fact is someone still put a lot of work into the scratch built model or the scenery or the trackwork. We might be just as good in a particular facet of modeling. The difference is that the professional gets paid for it.

Anyway, that's how I look at it. I can appreciate the skills of the various individuals and realize that I can do the same thing. Am I great at doing everything? Certainly not--but then again, I'm only one person.

Dennis Brennan

[Frank53]

Dennis B:

You are right - a professionally built layout is going to be a whole lot better than anything I can do. However, I will strive to make it as perfect as I can, I will learn a lot along the way, and it is becoming a family activity as my wife is wanting to dive in and do the painting on weathering of the structures.

I just picked up a couple dozen sets of trees in a blow out sale of woodland scenics stuff. She's painting and detailing the trees in advance. It will be something she and I will have done together, which considering the load of our lives - is a really good thing.

I just ordered a couple of downtown deco kits to keep her going while the layout is taking shape.

Now, if only I could pick up some chain link fence for Ace Auto . . .

[DCmontana]

Fun my friends, fun! I am a superintendent of schools and my 10.5 x 4 foot layout is for fun, relaxation, and nostalgia! It links me to my dad and the grain elevator we made for my new train Christmas 1952. I can take it apart and move it. I bring it to the high school just before Christmas and set it up in the board room. We bring the K-4 grades over to see it, give them a treat, and talk about what Christmas was like in the 50's. Kids love it! I made it to look like a layout that a dad and his son might have made in the 50's. I use a lot of newer production cars and mix them readily with the old stuff. If I had huge sums and the room it would grow to a great size and I would certainly bring in an expert to help me. I love running the trains, not tinkering with them. But, that's me!
We are all too judgemental and need to be able to appreciate our differences. It cracks me up when somebody writing into Classic Toy Trains goes on a rant about mixing scale cars with some 6464 cars. Who cares, have fun!

[Anonymous]

Frank,

You are definitely on the right track. You can't go wrong with Downtown Deco's structures. And my chain-link fence around Ace Auto will add the finishing touch. It's not hard to put together--it just takes a little bit of patience. If you can read, you can build my kit. My instructions cover everything. So... what are you waiting for?

Dennis

[Frank53]

dennis:

I sent you an order in email - I await your reply!

[Anonymous]

Frank,

Thank you. You won't be disappointed. Your reply has been sent.

Dennis

[Anonymous]

If you buy and build kits aren't you having a professional do the work for you? What about buying ready to run engines and cars?

Me, I wake up very early on the weekends and walk over to the swamp down the road. Once there I get in the boat and row around with a little magnet looking for bog iron. When I find some I pull it in and row back.

Then I fire up my forge fed with charcoal from trees I cut myself. Then using my anvil, bellows and hammer I made myself by borrowing someone elses, I pound out the bog iron. Eventually I can shape it into wire rod. I start making this into tiny individual track spikes. I make these one at a time. On a good day I can make about a thousand.

I won't even tell you how long it took for me to make the computer I am typing this on. If I condisended to letting others (these so called "professionals") do any work on my project I don't understand how I could face myself every morning in the polished tin panel I made myself.

[Anonymous]

emmaandy,

I like how your mind works

[Anonymous]

Thanks. No one can say I don't take my own work in this hobby seriously. The power for the computer is coming off of the pump action of the bellows. Can't chat too long these spikes will not forge themselves and I'm burning daylight.

On the agenda for tomorrow is digging clay to make bricks for the extra room (for the layouts branch line) on my house. I am also working on shearing the sheep, carding, spinning, dying and weaving a new shirt which I will embroider with my RR logo. Does anyone have tips on where to find indigo, I think blue would be a nice color.

[Anonymous]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Most natural indigo dye is obtained from plants in the genus Indigofera, which are native to the tropics. In Europe, indigo can be obtained from woad (Isatis tinctoria) and dyer's knotweed (Polygonum tinctorum). The primary commercial indigo species in Asia is true indigo (Indigofera tinctoria), a shrub found in Southeastern Asia. Its flowers range from red to purple.

Perhaps, this will help. I suppose you could go synthetic but why do that when you can make your own.

Dennis

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by emmaandy

If I condisended to letting others (these so called "professionals") do any work on my project I don't understand how I could face myself every morning in the polished tin panel I made myself.

[DCmontana]

emmaandy, I love your post!

***

[Anonymous]

Aren't professional layouts a product of Intelligent Design?

[Anonymous]

Careful there you don't want to let the Kansas State Board of Ed. to hear you.[:I]

[Frank53]

Here's another example of some amazing work built by the hobbyist. This is from Joe Frank's photo album of his New York Trolley and Subway layout.



That's a fine piece of work. He has posted a 141 photo slide show of this layout in the Subway Section at www.modeltrainjournal.com.

Enjoy the photos, they're fabulous.