Thoughts on the O/O-27 Gauge Market Today?

[3railguy]

QUOTE: A bunch of old guys looking to raise interest in thier hobby among younger people who do not care. Part of the reason they don't care is because said old guys don't care about what the young people have to say or what they are interested in. Because the interest of the young person is not the exact same as that of the older person at that age (30 or more years ago) it is automatically suspect.

Dude, chill out with this old guy stuff will ya? There is nothing wrong with old guys indulging in a hobby amongst themselves. Too much burden is being put on their backs here. Old guys do a lot to promote the hobby. A lot more than you think. Spankybird is right. Rail transportation does not dominate the country like it did in the 50's. That's the reason model trains aren't so popular anymore.

[Anonymous]

I second that on the old guy stuff, most of what I have learned in my 32 yrs on this earth are from my elders and I respect that. I also agree on the need for more affordable trains to appeal to those of us that do not have tons of disposable income. I dont need all the bells and whistles and normaly confine my purchases to postwar and MPC Lionel product. There IS interest in today youth when they are exposed to trains, I set up some sort of display layout at the two shows we have here in Erie, PA and the table has a backup of kids wanting to see the trains, kids pulling mom or dad toward the table. Now I use the normal tables the dealers use, this puts the trains at kid level, while the large HO scale modular layout is nice, its up a bit high for the real young childern, and most HO trains dont have even a whistle, although this is now changing. Mom and dad can make a connection when they ask what kind of trains I have, the quality when I hand them a diecast steam loco from the late 40's with it weight. I have assembled several postwar starter sets from various pieces for kids with great success, or pointed them to excellent starter sets from Lionel or K line. I prefer not buy MTH locomotives or cars as a personal preference, but I do have some of there signals as Lionel doesn't make any PRR signals yet. I have had Lionel trains since I was 5, had many high end locos in my possesion over the years including a reissue scale hudson. But with my love of the PRR I just bought a B6 with a main gear issue, got it for a real good price, has little run time on it. Bought it from Train City here in Erie. I also handle his repair work and I try to pass my knowledge on to the younger generation. If anybody here is in my area and would like to set up a loose net of friends to setup three rail trains at the local shows, please email me. The stuff between Lionel and MTH will go on for years with the appeals. I hope they can both just move on and quit flooding the market with same trains. I think K line and Williams have the right idea, affordable trains, and even scale models that are more affordable than the others. There is still a market for non scale trains, or real small scale ones, 0-6-0, 0-8-0, small switchers, How about a GP15 in O gauge? Or a GP9 that has undergone a rebuilding with a low short nose, lettered for modern shortlines like Iowa Interstate ect. Just my 2 cents, I am always open to new ideas, but this pissing match, and thats what it started out as, between Lionel and MTH has really hurt the reputation of the hobby as a whole.

[brianel027]

Thank you LBGF7. What you've said here echos my first-hand expereince.

Common observations:
YES, trains are not a part of everyday life as they once were.
YES, the American family has changed as has the fact that most families have BOTH parents working opposed to years ago.
YES, there are many other activities and things all competing for families discretionary income.

I know all these things, and yet as LBGF7 has stated, I have done too many train shows with a kid friendly display layout and seen FAR too much interest from families with kids to know that there isn't some kind of future for toy trains. Of course, there need to be some "TOY" trains instead of mostly expensive, scale replicas in long forgotten road names.

There are some other things that have changed too, that are just as important as the things listed above:
*YES, trains are not nationally advertised anymore outside of specific hobby magazines.
*YES, operating display layouts - a valuable sales tool - also seem to be a thing of the past. Hard to believe they were once seen even at department stores.
* YES, trains are not for sale in places where people years ago bought trains in large numbers. We can debate this one until we're all blue in the face. BUT simple truth, I've looked through dozens of department store holiday sale flyers... there are lots and lots of toys on sale, BUT NO trains other than battery powered ones or Fisher-Price ones.
LIke it or not, to the general public this means Lionel, K-Line and other trains are just something they hear about because they are not for sale in the places where they shop.
* YES, there is an undeniable perception amongst those not in the hobby that this is an expensive hobby intended for adults only. This is also reinforced by a visit to the majority of train shows were there mostly older men, lots of for sale tables and few operating layouts catering to kids and beginners.
* YES, the above perception is also reinforced by dealers at train shows who overcharge for stuff and somehow get the official TCA guidelines mixed-up, mistaking poor condition for mint condition. [xx(] This is also part of the general false perception that ALL older trains are worth their weight in gold.
* YES, this perception is reinforced by flipping through most major 150-page plus catalogs today. And though Lionel has always been pricey, with production in China today, the trains are simply too expensive! $45-$60 for a non-operating car is ridiculous, given these trains cost next to nothing to make in China.
*YES, because of the expense, mailorder and ebay get an increasing share of the sales. Mailorder places get the better wholesale, therefore sell at a larger discount. That may be the "wheels of capitalism" spinning as normal, but it doesn't bode well for the smaller local neighborhood train shops which already have too much working against them. Even though the smaller shops are the ones that do the most to introduce newcomers into the hobby.
* YES, it is more difficult for a beginner to get into the hobby because of all the confusion between different and non-compatible track and operating systems. At least in the old days, the 027 track in the budget MARX set also worked with the 027 track in the Lionel set.

What Hobo said earlier about the K-Line display also proves the point I have been making all along. The kids were running the trains and having fun. Of course, it isn't too good that the kids burned out some K-Line transformers (I thought their new ones were supposed to be real good?).

There IS interest in trains, if only we established modelers could swallow our own wishes and allow the companies to divert some money into product development in the non-scale, beginner area - of couse this would bring howls of disgust at YORK! They might even run into the streets of York provoking violence because there were no new scale offerings in the next catalog... talk about a revolution!! But this absolutely needs to happen: simple basic military strategy... you can't fight a war on two fronts. If the hobby is going to grow, effort and money needs to go in that direction. And that direction is beginner, durable, affordable non-scale trains. There is already enoughy scale product tooled up. It would be nice if the adult market could live with the existing tooling and a headlight in the wrong prototypical position.

The various companies can continue to cater to a vocal but ever-decreasing number of scale modelers who have too many trains already. And can't possibly buy all the new trains being made - even if they wanted to.

[:(] If poor sales, excessive market glut, decreasing numbers of dealers and the expense of all this scale tooling doesn't put them out of business, then there's always all the expensive legal rangling.

The companies can also decide to put some real effort into this direction of growing the hobby if they so choose that they would like to have a future beyond the next decade or two.

[:D] It's somewhat ironic that everytime I read commentary from the company folks, the area of the market that shows strong sales is the beginner, non-scale market. Hmmm, never would guess that one from looking at the lopsided selection of what is being offered today.

[Anonymous]

Brianel027,Good call! I had a conversation with the folks at Lionel some time ago on this very subject and my concerns were,
Give the little tykes and the beginners somthing to work with.
Introductry railsounds, a War train,(WWII) salute,a little better steam engine than a plastic one, Get back to the play value of solinoids and dump bins.
I can't and won't say that it's been ALL my Idea,But they did manage to put out some if not all of the things that have made the hobby a blast!
And I believe that there is more area to cover the can increse this hobby.
I just wish I could sit down with the creators and put my 2 cents worth in.
I started my collection in 1968 and I'm 42 years old now so I'm not ashamed to say I've inhaled a considerable amount of ozone as has alot of others and would like to pass on a great tradition!

[Back2Trains]

emmaandy, people will want to get into this hobby because they like O gauge trains and for no other reason. Many people have come to my house and expressed a great deal of interest in my layout, but they won't necessarily build one.
As far as Ebay, the rare has often proven to be common; things are available that you don't even see at shows and the prices are often much better. I bought a great Lionel 97 coal loader on Ebay for less than half of what it would cost me at a show for one in equal or lesser condition.
Sniping? It's a way of life. As for me, I'll wait for the next one. It will show up and after 2 or 3 times, the guys with unlimited funds who can't live without it will have theirs and I'll be able to get mine for far less.
As far as the speculators, that happens with hobby shops too. I tried to get a particular set from a shop, but his allotment was spoken for and I couldn't get on the list. I found mine somewhere else and, last I heard, he still had 2 on the shelf.
As for us old guys, give us a break. We once thought we knew everything too. We, our fathers and our grandfathers passed this hobby down through the generations and now it is passing to yours. What will you pass on to the future?

Jim
Proud owner of Lionel products for 54 years.

[3railguy]

Part of the reason mom and dad both work these days is because middle class American familles want and expect more than what we had in the 50's. Back then, a typical middle class family lived in a 1200 sq ft home, owned one vehicle used for shopping and family excursions while dad rode the buss. Ride the buss today and you're assumed to have had your liscence suspended over a DWI.

Today's middle class family expects two or three vehicles and a 2000 sq ft home. For many, it would be impossible to ride the buss because the buss systems shrunk or died.

[tgovebaker]

This continues to be a very interesting string. We've heard a lot about the economics of the business, particularly the apparent focus by several manufacturers on the high priced scale end of the product portfolio. Several posters have alluded to the implications this has for dealers, particularly when so much product winds up on CTT or OGR in "blowout" pricing adverts. Does anyone have any specific examples they can share regarding what this has meant for dealers? I'll ask some of the Bay Area dealers in the next week or so, and see what they have to say. Again, I'm curious what your experiences have been.

And, on an unrelated note, I'm 36. Does this make me young or old?[;)]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by brianel027

There IS interest in trains, if only we established modelers could swallow our own wishes and allow the companies to divert some money into product development in the non-scale, beginner area - of couse this would bring howls of disgust at YORK! They might even run into the streets of York provoking violence because there were no new scale offerings in the next catalog... talk about a revolution!!
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Doesn't York PA have an unfortunate history of riots in the streets. I really don't think they want or need any more, especially in light of York's past.

Wow. I seem to have touched a raw nerve.

I don't think I said anything in that last post that has not been said before in different words. A kinder, gentiler euphemisim. I mean these are some of the reasons for the "World's Greatest Hobby Campain" aren't they. A perceived lack of interest among younger people and new hobbyists that will eventually lend to the end of the hobby. A decline similar to the coming end of Social Security.

All of the things I mentioned are a part of the hobby today as I see it. Things in this hobby may have always been like this and these problems are accepted as a part of the system. Sometimes it is good to be self reflexive to find flaws and look for a way to change for the better.

Hey "Old guy's", is being old bad. I never said it was. It's a fact of life, inevitable. A few years ago rappers talked about the "O.G." or "Original Gangster" as a term of prestige and esteam. Greybeards, old guy's, Gramp's, the OG, Grandpa and a term in the parlance of those growing up in the now grown mythical post-war era "the old man". These are all teasing terms of endearment. Besides old age is relative. I know twins born five minutes apart who have running bickering on age. If I wanted to be social with younger people I would have to find a different hobby.

My point is I don't care how long you have been on the planet, someone is always younger and what they have to say is no less important. My college students show me this every day. Once you start preaching about your age difference and what they should do, they start going to sleep. But if you listen they have many valid and insiteful arguements. When they hear terms like "greatest generation" they have no desire to leap frog over it because nameing things this way puts a cap on achievement.

I have noticed on this site and in the magazines that when people talk of buying trains it is for their grandkids not for their own children. Did they do this with thier own children. Are those children still involved in the hobby? Is this trend reflexive of the ageing of the hobby?

I only raised some points that I thought should be looked at from a different perspective. How many people will be here in ten years... in twenty...

Is the term "toy trains" in the magazine title limited to the the products made by the companies that advertise in it's pages and those by age now considered "classic". Is this hobby like the Museum of Modern Art in NYC that has declared the modern art movement over and no longer buy's contemporary art.

My last post was intended to read like a manifesto and the points taken were extreme but valid to provoke and lead to conversation.
Just some thoughts.

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