Thoughts on the O/O-27 Gauge Market Today?

[Anonymous]

You want to talk about people having no clue. The set is currently listed at $299 on ebay however the last sets that sold in September went for $30 and $37.

Tyco made several TV trains during the 80's including the A Team train. :)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Transformers-Tyco-Train-set-in-box_W0QQitemZ280156553227QQihZ018QQcategoryZ4696QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[PostwarMan07]

Hey Guys:

Let's face reality, yesterday I visited the Allentown First Frost Train Meet and the old pot- bellied guys with grey hair, white hair or comb-overs out numbered the kids by at least 10 to 1.

Later I visited a big local Hobby Shop. In the rear of the store they have two large slot car tracks, and the place was filled with youngsters, non of which were involved with 3-rail trains.

Fact is that Atlas, K-Line, Lionel, MTH, Weaver and Williams are singing to a shrinking audience.

BillFromWayne

Bill, 

I think I know which hobby shop you are refering to.  When I was younger I remember the slot cars being packed with kids and birthday parties while I looked at the trains.  I guess I was the 1 in 10 to 1.  I agree that this is a shrinking hobby, but I has been shrinking since the late 50's.  Although someone did make a point about the increased number of starter sets for a younger customer base.  Maybe 15 years from now those kids will get the same feeling as did the baby boomers in the 1980s.  Lets remember these are toys and you need to get the kids back into the hobby for it to survive.

[Anonymous]

In the eighties Tyco made a HO scale Transformer toy train set. It was a natural fit because what the Transformers are a transportation toy (car, train or plane)that changes into a robot. Today Transformer action figure collectors seek it out on ebay and bid against the toy train people because of the cross promotion. If some train manufacturer today teamed up with Hasbro to make a new Transformer train set that could transform and was part of the Transformer TV show and comic books I am positive it would draw Tranformer collectors into the hobbyshops. A big plus would be that it may even make it into the Big Box Retail stores where Tranformers are already a well received toy line.

 

We were trying to find out how much this transformer train might be worth. Before we tried to put one up for sale on e-bay. email thoughts to [e-mail]

be

[waltrapp]

I went over to my brother's house last night (it was my brother and family that came in the second setting) to help him with 2 issues with his trains.

Maybe, to me at least, the kids didn't look like they were impressed or having fun when I had them at my house. But their Mom said that they couldn't stop talking about "Uncle Buck's trains" (the Uncle Buck is obviously after John Candy's character and a term of endearment to me that they call me that). So maybe I was too harsh, I don't know. His girls mostly liked the candy and the microphone and maybe I should step back and tell myself that as long as they had fund THEIR WAY who cares HOW they had fun. Even if it wasn't in the manner that I was hoping for.

- walt

[Anonymous]

brianel, You and Mr. Calabrese gotsta have some speaks. Lionel spies, Make This Happen.

[brianel027]

Walt, don't know what to tell you. I'm finally willing to see what others have been telling me for years: that I have a natural love and respect for children. Or as the wife of a train buddy once said to me "Brian, I have days where I'm challenged to love my own children, but you love everyone's kids."

I had an experience at church recently where a single mom explained to me that her daughter wouldn't like me because she didn't like men because she'd been abandoned by her father. Within 30 seconds of saying that, the kid was wiggling out of her mom's arms and reaching for me. Within a couple minutes after that, I had the kid laughing with that deep hearted laughter that it seems kids can do so well (when encouraged). This sort of thing happens to me all the time.... anywhere. I was walking down the street, noticed this little girl on her dad's shoulders... I made this ridiculous silly face at her and she started laughing so hard. Her dad quickly turned around to see what it was she was laughing at and just saw me... I guess he didn't figure it out either.

Needless to say, I have not had the experiences you've described Walt. Of course, the layout I built with my nephew is quite simple... it's not very intimidating and yet it is interesting and fun to watch. Could be too, that the kids see me having such a good time running the trains and showing them the trains in action, that they want to experience what I'm feeling.

Like I always say, I'm a kid too at heart. I guess I'm just a natural to be promoting this hobby with familes and kids. Better luck with the next group Walt. It's fun to see the kids faces light up when running the trains. Every time I see a kid's eyes light up watching the trains, I can see myself when I was kid in their faces. I know I must have been just excited about it so many years ago because I still get excited about it today.

[waltrapp]

Some new blood (mine) on this topic.

I finally finished my 2004 Christmas layout. I planned really hard to make it fun to watch but also tried to make sure that kids had something to do besides sit and look.

I am running 7 trains in a 14'x14' layout. Hills, tunnels, a magic 'disappearing' train, 4 transformers, 12 switches, 6 crossovers, interconnecting tracks, etc. I have slide switches that turn on accessories (OK, not real exciting but it gives the kids something to control). I have push buttons for a whistle, 3 dump cars, and the Lionel milk car. I set up the PW coal ramp and conveyor and made them accessible to the kids - the hopper dumps Nerds candy and the conveyor transports it to an awaiting bowl. I had 3 remote control switches that they could use to alter paths of each of the 3 trains that they controlled.

I tried HARD to try to make something available 'to do' and easy enough to do it.

Each train that the kids could control were of the neutral, forward, neutral, reverse variety and I agree, as was mentioned earlier, that they struggled with it some given that they all didn't start the same. But then, none of them ran trains before - ever - so some getting used to was expected.

I wired it so that I control 4 PS2 trains with a remote and I was hoping that the kids could control the other 3 non-PS2 engines with transformers. I had 7 kids over yesterday (4 one sitting, 3 the next). I would say that I kept their interest for 10 minutes. None of the 7 had any interest in pushing any buttons, using switch controllers, or running the trains. Not one.

Maybe it's my own fault to some extent. To try to add to the fun of the occassion I run two of what I call 'candy trains'. Self explanatory. I also set up a dinosaur park and pipe dinosaur sounds to it. I also set up an external mic for the PS2 engines so that the kids would get a kick out of 'talking thru the engine'.

Well, eating candy and talking thru the mic were the ONLY things that they wanted to do. I don't think they wanted to use the mic to be amazed that they were 'talking thru the engine' as much as to just hear their own voice.

I piped toy train music thru the PS2 engines in hope of entertaining them.

NOTHING IMPRESSED these kids (3 1/2 up to 5 1/2). When I mentioned to one of the mothers that I thought the kids would get a kick out of hearing toy train music coming out of the engines and was disappointed that they were NOT EVEN AMUSED by it, she replied in kind "have you seen the new toys out there?". Maybe they are just too young right now and I shouldn't give up hope yet.

I know I'm rambling but I tried HARD to do what Brianel always talks about and I was soooooo disappointed in yesterday's two sessions. Upon reflection, I was thinking that maybe trying to get kids to run trains that aren't around trains might be asking too much. I do think they were intimidated somewhat. And I agree that having different trains start off differently confused them too ( I didn't want to lock them into forward since each train had a reason to back up).

I'm having 2 more 5 1/2 year old kids over later this week and I know one of them really enjoys trains (he's been a yearly visitor since birth). So I'll be anxious to see if he has any interest in doing things, rather than just watching.

Can't you just smell the passion is these responses? [:)] Notice that none are one-sentence blow-offs!

WHEW! - Walt

[Anonymous]

Thanks Agent O27.

It is said that in sprit you are as old as you feel. But as a practical matter it would be good to find a new hook to get more people into the hobby. I think that altering the hobby slightly would open it up to new and different audiences.

Many young people especially those in urban areas live with trains on a daily basis. These people are very interested in trains and could go toe to toe with any rail historian on subway car triva. It is not a passing phase like so many of the 4 year old Thomas lovers. Today when a rare car shows up at the platform like a NYC Redbird some are noticabily excited. Some hobby shops in the city even cater to these devotes. In HO before the recent MTH subway series The Red Caboose on 45th street carries small run obscure subway cars (if you can find them in the piles). Even in the Trainland ads in MR you can see how they promote thier exclusive line of subway cars from the big Brooklyn mailorder king. Much of youth culture comes from these areas and is filtered through MTV to the suburbs. If those suburban kids saw a favorite rappers subway layout there would be a real change in the market. Instead of Escalade SUV's with spinner rims You would see these kids one-uping each other with more and more fantastic models. Lowrider subway cars that dance, that kind of thing.

I am making a model of a city in a 5x8 utility trailer. It is based on utopian 20th century ideas of the future that failed to materialize and how in reality we are probably better off. 1939 Worlds Fair / Norman Bel Geddes / Metropolis type things. It is filled with skyscrapers, pedestrian bridges, Air ships, and mirrors to appear larger. There are several one way mirror view ports(shiny side in).

Here we are today, this is the 21st century and does not feel any different. Besides jet packs at rush hour seem like a really bad idea.

The city has some conventional rail public transportation as well as monorails made of the Rokenbok toy. It also has a population of around 2000 people (lost count). I intend to take this trailer around and show it at different non-model railroad associated sites. Already I showed an early version of it at the San Diego Museum of Contemporary Art in July as part of their Thursday Night Thing Program. It was was very well received and I plan to take it elsewhere over the Spring.

[brianel027]

Quotes from mpzpw3:
"When he comes over to my house to watch my layout run, he is bombarded with comments from my sister (his mother) to "not touch the trains"

"My second problem is, my Wife refuses to run the trains!! She is afraid of breaking something! I keep telling her nothing can be broken, but she grew up with a perception that O-gauge trains are expensive, and are collector items, not toys. ... In summary, Most people feel these trains are collectors items and worth a fortune. "

This is a good example of what has also happened in this Lionel hobby. Sure, it's fun to collect trains and to know if you care for them, you'll get your money back. But this 'collectibility' perception hurts the hobby more than it helps it - at least as far as newcomers are concerned.

mpzpw3, I too have a layout built for a nephew, but it was done on a true budget. He has a Lionel DC powered Dockside switcher (bought for 95 cents at the Salvation Army), a K-Line single motor Amtrak Budd car (I took one of my dummy units and put in a motorized truck from his K-Line S-2 switcher (both units also with added weight over the motor truck), a windup helicopter car ($8 at a show) which I use turbo blades on instead (from a dollar store), a Bugs Bunny/Yosemite Sam car ($20 at a show), a Penn Central log dump car ($6 at a show), a K-Line "beek-a-boo" box car (under $20), a K-Line Amtrak Searchlight car ($25), several Lionel Kickapoo Set dump cars (with metal wheels and weights under the frame... cars were $1 ea.), a custom operating SpongeBob SquarePants car that I made for him, misc. box cars and a bunch of gondolas, flat cars, etc. You get the idea. The layout is DC powered so it's simple by the button Forward - Reverse. Horn and whistle are off-board. Other than a K-Line Oper. Barrel Loader, Junction Tower and Bubbling Tower, the other accessories were made and built by us. There's a MTH Railking Banjo Signal too ($15). The track is all 027 and the turnouts (there are 5 total) were all $1 each at a show (under some guy's table... pays to look under the table!). The door the layout is built on was scrap. The track ties are made of black foam core board to help quiet the noice - which was FREE from scrap at a local art and frame shop. On one flat car, I put a strip of black self-sticking insulation foam, so he can easily load and unload any die-cast vehicle... the foam holds them in place real well.

I'll add I'm not wild about single can motored locos, but with some added weight, the Budd car and S-2 pull enough cars to make him happy and won't run off the track. And he likes the fact he got two engines out of one. Also the outside curves are banked just to help.

Anyways, with a little creativity and some patience looking for deals, it can be done. I'll also add he was really into video games (and still likes them) but he is proud as peaches of his train layout and knows it's something we work on together!

[mpzpw3]

Okay, Christmas is here. Yesterday I bought my nephew some Thomas stuff, because he asked for it on his Christmas list. When he comes over to my house to watch my layout run, he is bombarded with comments from my sister (his mother) to "not touch the trains". I literally have to sneak him into the basement to play trains. then he can touch them, and have a go at the transformer. It seems strange, but this stuff is hard to do!! The whole forward-neutral-reverse thing is crazy!! My MTH proto-1 engines have to set for a minute in "reset", before they will run, my Lionel engines start up in whatever direction they want, and the Williams engines usually start up in forward (thank the stars), but not always. This can become confusing to a second-grader!
Lastly, I just set up a loop of track under the Christmas tree. I'm very proud of this loop, as I have promising for years to do this. Two problems arise: I am running a Williams Berk, Lionel poultry car, Lionel aquarium car, Lionel gondola, Lionel log dump car, and Lionel bay window caboose. The cost of this consist is well over $300.00!!!! Even using e-bay or train show standards, not to mention the local train store!!!! Sure I pieced this consist together, but starter sets don't offer the quality or "play value" this set offers. Remember, I haven't included the price of USED track and transformer yet. My second problem is, my Wife refuses to run the trains!! She is afraid of breaking something! I keep telling her nothing can be broken, but she grew up with a perseption that O-gauge trains are expensive, and are collector items, not toys. We have run trains together, and she is beginning to feal confident running them for visitors. In summary, Most people feel these trains are collectors items and worth a fortune. If you mix manufacture's stuff, the sequencing can be tricky, and lastly, a simple loop of track with a simple starter set is expensive, never mind the play-value. Even if I had children, I might pass over the train sets, and find a nice computer game that they would find less stressful and have more "play-value".

[brianel027]

Emmaandy, not at all. Please don't take things too personally. All one needs to do is to follow the news for a little while and watch regular evening television and you'll understand where my "morals" comment came from. Even with that, I'm in no position to judge.

As the saying goes, there may be accidental parents, but no child should be made to feel like an accident. I agree. Childhood only comes once, and it is far too precious to be ruined since you carry those experiences with you forever.

PS: I've enjoyed reading your comments and I took no offense by your old folks comment. I guess, by numbers, I may be an old folk too. But by joy and spirit, I still feel like a kid. Lucky for me too, you'd never ever guess my age by seeing me... people are always 15-20 years off in their educated guesses.

[Anonymous]

I got my first train set from my dad. It was his Marx Santa Fe freight set with double tinplate F3 diesels. Then I tried and failed to make an HO layout by myself. Then college. I still bought some Model RR magazines in college but no modeling. My point is I have been interested in the hobby for much of my life with a few down years. I know that not as many people my age are involved as in the past and some of the reasons I have said before are why in my mind.

Then in 1999/2000 I was looking at action figures in a Toy's Are Us and saw some two different Lionel sets. One was the "Heavy Duty Construction" set with an RS-3 and three gondolas all yellow. The other was the "Safari" set with an 0-4-0 steam engine a gondola and a caboose.

I bought the construction set for around $80. I know many people here know just how bad those two sets were but the price was right and I saw them in a store I went in often. So what if the engine had no reverse capability it got me started (again) and I'm sure those sets did the same for others. As an aside Lionel should have included a catalog or dealer finding info it would have saved me some grief.

I guess my point is if Lionel or some other company gets O/O-27 sets into department stores again hobbists should think twice before buying them out because the sets presence in the store functions as an ad for the hobby.

Another point that has been alluded to in this thread is lack of advertising. My feeling is that the companies advertise but in the wrong places to drum up new business. The ads that they buy are all in the hobby magazines. They are preaching to the choir. It is a closed loop. Wholesalers and mailorder businesses often scoop the companies ads anyway.
The magazines themselves function as ads anyway. When you see the new product on a featured layout in an article it works as well or better than an ad anyway. The big companies should try putting these ads in other places to raise and spread interest. The ad cost in a model magazine must be equivalent to these other limited interest magazines so why not become proactive in promotion.

This may not be a dying hobby but the median age is going up and proportionally fewer young people are coming into it than did in the past.
Just some thoughts. (I wonder if I'm still being scorned over the "old guy" thing. Was that "morals" comment directed at me?)

[brianel027]

Bill Sherwood, you're right in the sense that I don't know what would happen. I do know because trains aren't as much a part of life, nor do toy trains receive any kid oriented promotion, kids are not aware of them the same way they are aware of other things (which do get kid oriented promotion). Of course, given the general nature of kids:
A) They'll want and ask for things they see on TV or that their friends have.
B) They'll probably want things they can do on their own, especially if dad isn't involved or chooses not to be involved (which unfortunately happens).
C) kids always seem to want the thing the parents don't want them to have - good or bad. Most kids would probably eat cake or candy over vegetables if given the choice.

I can't even be sure what percentage of kids who saw and participated in my display actually eneded up with train sets or train layouts... but I do know for a fact some did. One of my local dealers at the time started treating me very nice everytime I went to his shop. This was because I was telling people to go there and buy this particular set. And they did.

On a somewhat related point, it must have been 1993. K-Mart had some Lionel train sets and I went down to get one. There were four sets left when I got there, so I picked one up. Another woman walked up and see me pick up the Lionel train set caught her attention. So I started my normal bit promoting the hobby. I flagged down the
manager, asked if I could open the set I was going to buy (I assured him it was as good as sold). By this time there was a small crowd listening in as I explained the trains and how much fun they could be for a kid. While I stood there, all 3 other sets were sold because of me. The store manager thanked me and checked to see if any other sets were available - they weren't.

The point I'm making is that today, the trains will not just sell themselves. There's no advertising and display layouts are not nearly as commonplace as they once were. Therefore it takes someone with a real love for the hobby and the gift of salesmanship to promote it. I was not pulling the wool over those folks eyes and I'm sure they figured that out pretty quick.

I don't think there's any arguement that Lionel trains will not be sold in the numbers they once were to kids. But from what I've seen, I don't think there's any arguement that there isn't a place today for kids in the hobby - if the hobby decides there is a place for them. And that means the companies/importers. I think those who travel to shows with displays and those who give away trains to kids deserve some kind of award. From what I've read on the forums, there are many folks who do this sort of thing. But it's not just up to us individuals. There has to be support from the companies with product, procedure and policy.

Finally, as John Long says, it shouldn't really matter what happens in the future, Indeed I have no vested interest or anything to gain financially from any of the companies selling more trains to kids. I have my trains - more than enough - and I have my fun with them too.

It's just I remember how much fun as a kid I had with them. I learned things from building layouts - and all of it was innocent fun by today's standards. I don't see anything wrong with the innocense of childhood. Kids haven't changed over the ages... what has changed is the world in which they are born into. Kids still want to play, have fun, pretend - and whether they know it or not, hang on to their innocense as long as they can. Lionel trains are not the salvation of childhood. But they are something that can allow the possibility of a father and a son ( even a mother and a son or daughter) having something to do together. Even minority owner Neil Young has acknowledged that Lionel trains are a great family hobby: they need to promote that angle a lot more.

As morally screwed up as our society is today, there are still parents who love and care about their kids. Maybe they won't buy their kid a train set. But maybe they will if they know about it and realize the trains are still being made - and that there are a few items that are affordable too.

[Anonymous]

Hello All, I'm a newbie over here and a lurker over at "The Other Forum" [:)] .

I've been reading this thread and I thought I'd give you a newcomers take on the hobby.

My son has always liked trains so we did the Thomas thing and then started with a MTH Christmas trolley set when he was six. That went over well and shortly he had a MTH Daylight RTR layout. Over the next year we added track and rolling stock to his Carpet Central RR. A year ago I built him a 104 sq ft table for his layout in the basement. He's eight years old now and has 9 locomotives. I know that sounds like a bit much, but he's picked up a lot of those as gifts on birthdays, Christmas, and by purchasing them with his own savings. Imagine that, a kid that saves money for something like a O scale locomotive! Once we got into the O scale trains all of the junk toys from Target stopped coming into the house. He didn't want them anymore. He hasn't run an engine off of the table and onto the floor and I think I've only had to superglue a couple of brake handwheels back on a couple pieces of rolling stock. So you can see why I don't mind spending money on his hobby, as he takes care of his trains probably as well as some you do. The point? The show vendors and local hobby store sales people pretty much ignore him. So if you are selling trains at a show or hobby shop, don't think that you can ignore children (or the parents of children) as a possible customer.

The local hobby shops? Yup, I ve supported them for the last two years, but I've gone to buying stuff online. I just don't see the "added value" when I can get the same item at a blowout price online or by picking up the phone. Two local train shops have MTH Rugged Rails and Industrail Rail rolling stock priced at $26.00! I shop elsewhere now. Ebay? The people that want to charge $10.00 for shipping on one piece of rolling stock are amazing. FWIW, I've found a few good deals there and have been satisified with my purchases. Train shows? We never leave empty handed, but we shop smarter now.

The cost of the hobby? Yes, that's a sore spot. It's not cheap, but I'm fortunate to be able to participate. The cost factor does keep a lot of new people away. The $1000 locomotives are beautiful, but the last four engines to come in the house have been low tech Williams models. I can't say enough good about them. After 3 MTH warranty deals (Two were PS1 and one was PS2) I'm hoping the K-Line Allegheny that Santa is bringing this year will hold up better. Perhaps the industry ought to step back and really review their entry level pricing and dealer markup on low end rolling stock.

That will have to do for now...Thanks CTT!

Regards,

Craig

[Back2Trains]

My children played with the trains that I had from the 50s and my grandchildren do too. My grandsons also have a Sears starter set by MTH which I will be setting up under their tree next week. Which reminds me...a pox on Realtrax or whatever that MTH plastic track is called. That stuff is one of the biggest reasons they don't play more with their train. Every time they want to set it up, I have to go over and re-bend all of the contacts in order to get it working.
3railguy your point is right on target except we had about 900 sq ft.

[3railguy]

Bill Makes a good point. Having grown up during the 60's and early 70's, I saw the Sears train displays slowly fade out in favor of slot cars, electric football games, hot wheels, primitive computer games (remember Pong?), etc. Several children have seen my layout and it was a big rush for them at first but it sort of wore off.

Price point is always a big issue with newcomers. The facts are quality O gauge trains are not cheap. They never have been either. Lionel's premium sets of the 50's retailed at around $75. Quite a chunk of change then. Sure, Walmart sells high tech toys for $80 but they last about a month or two before they are broken. Lionel can make a train with sounds and command control for $80 and it will last a month too.

I like to think many of us were born with some sort of train gene that when we met up with model trains, we met our match and became a serious hobbyist. I never left model trains since the age of five. My involvement endured dating, cars, and even college building Athearn kits in my dorm.

To think the hobby is dying is almost nonsense. Segments of the hobby may have come and gone or are going but the hobby in general is much larger today than it was 20 or 30 years ago. I never have and probably never will concern myself with the future. I enjoy my trains as they are today.

[Anonymous]

Brianel,

The kids who go to train shows are typically kids of parents who like toy trains. What is difficult to gauge is whether the attitude of the small percentage of kids who attend the shows reflects the attitude of most kids who do not attend train shows. Your perception and use of the reaction of kids at shows as evidence may be somewhat skewed. At a show kids will make the most of what they have. Take your display to an open market of toys, including computer games and see where the kids go. That would give you a fair idea of what most kids really want. I'm not sure what that choice would be.

Bill Sherwood

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by brianel027

There IS interest in trains, if only we established modelers could swallow our own wishes and allow the companies to divert some money into product development in the non-scale, beginner area - of couse this would bring howls of disgust at YORK! They might even run into the streets of York provoking violence because there were no new scale offerings in the next catalog... talk about a revolution!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn't York PA have an unfortunate history of riots in the streets. I really don't think they want or need any more, especially in light of York's past.

Wow. I seem to have touched a raw nerve.

I don't think I said anything in that last post that has not been said before in different words. A kinder, gentiler euphemisim. I mean these are some of the reasons for the "World's Greatest Hobby Campain" aren't they. A perceived lack of interest among younger people and new hobbyists that will eventually lend to the end of the hobby. A decline similar to the coming end of Social Security.

All of the things I mentioned are a part of the hobby today as I see it. Things in this hobby may have always been like this and these problems are accepted as a part of the system. Sometimes it is good to be self reflexive to find flaws and look for a way to change for the better.

Hey "Old guy's", is being old bad. I never said it was. It's a fact of life, inevitable. A few years ago rappers talked about the "O.G." or "Original Gangster" as a term of prestige and esteam. Greybeards, old guy's, Gramp's, the OG, Grandpa and a term in the parlance of those growing up in the now grown mythical post-war era "the old man". These are all teasing terms of endearment. Besides old age is relative. I know twins born five minutes apart who have running bickering on age. If I wanted to be social with younger people I would have to find a different hobby.

My point is I don't care how long you have been on the planet, someone is always younger and what they have to say is no less important. My college students show me this every day. Once you start preaching about your age difference and what they should do, they start going to sleep. But if you listen they have many valid and insiteful arguements. When they hear terms like "greatest generation" they have no desire to leap frog over it because nameing things this way puts a cap on achievement.

I have noticed on this site and in the magazines that when people talk of buying trains it is for their grandkids not for their own children. Did they do this with thier own children. Are those children still involved in the hobby? Is this trend reflexive of the ageing of the hobby?

I only raised some points that I thought should be looked at from a different perspective. How many people will be here in ten years... in twenty...

Is the term "toy trains" in the magazine title limited to the the products made by the companies that advertise in it's pages and those by age now considered "classic". Is this hobby like the Museum of Modern Art in NYC that has declared the modern art movement over and no longer buy's contemporary art.

My last post was intended to read like a manifesto and the points taken were extreme but valid to provoke and lead to conversation.
Just some thoughts.

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