I've never seen this before. This is interesting. About what scale is this? My sister and my girlfriend would both love to have these.
overlandflyer balidas: Love those Disney windups. .... at times feeling a little envious of N-scalers being able to carry around their entire collection in one box, years ago i started to track down some small scale tin and Marx certainly helped me out; ...even with a few more Disney windups. Marx-Disney lithographed channel track train Donald is both engineer and fireman in this Disney character litho'ed version of the #376 channel track loco. along with the rest of the cars in this set, opposite side graphics are mirror images. only one gondola was included, but the two pictured show the only car style i have seen with a color variation. being sold mostly over the counter at department stores and considered more of a train toy than a toy train, it's difficult to find exact information that would date these sets, but i would have to think it was around the same time Marx released the O gauge Mickey Mouse Meteor train. José Carioca is the youngest character (1943) to appear on either set and that information itself would narrow it down to the postwar era. and as much as this small train attracts Disneyanites, the base seems to be even more of a draw for its rich graphics. Disney channel track base featuring characters from at least four early classic films who rarely gather for such a group pose, this piece always seems to attract more Disney fans than Marx collectors. it took quite some time to find one at a price that didn't make me cringe. fortunately at the same time i caught the W.D. gang sleeping, i also nabbed another, more than likely later, Marx-Disney collaboration. Donald and Mickey handcar/ channel track base but rather than the channel track train, this base came with one of the smallest handcars Marx ever offered. Donald and Mickey handcars - flanged wheel (l) and non-flanged wheel (r) versions shown here with the O gauge flanged wheel version that was offered separately with a small circle of clockwork, 2-rail track; the version on the right is the correct windup handcar for the litho base. unfortunately Donald is sitting a bit low on that one awaiting repair after a transport mishap. ...i hate it when that happens! Greenberg lists an electric version of this handcar and if anyone has ever seen an example, i sure would like to hear about it. well, that's it for my Disney/ Marx, but a little more channel track when i get the time. cheers...gary
balidas: Love those Disney windups. ....
Love those Disney windups. ....
at times feeling a little envious of N-scalers being able to carry around their entire collection in one box, years ago i started to track down some small scale tin and Marx certainly helped me out; ...even with a few more Disney windups.
Marx-Disney lithographed channel track train
Donald is both engineer and fireman in this Disney character litho'ed version of the #376 channel track loco. along with the rest of the cars in this set, opposite side graphics are mirror images. only one gondola was included, but the two pictured show the only car style i have seen with a color variation.
being sold mostly over the counter at department stores and considered more of a train toy than a toy train, it's difficult to find exact information that would date these sets, but i would have to think it was around the same time Marx released the O gauge Mickey Mouse Meteor train. José Carioca is the youngest character (1943) to appear on either set and that information itself would narrow it down to the postwar era.
and as much as this small train attracts Disneyanites, the base seems to be even more of a draw for its rich graphics.
Disney channel track base
featuring characters from at least four early classic films who rarely gather for such a group pose, this piece always seems to attract more Disney fans than Marx collectors. it took quite some time to find one at a price that didn't make me cringe.
fortunately at the same time i caught the W.D. gang sleeping, i also nabbed another, more than likely later, Marx-Disney collaboration.
Donald and Mickey handcar/ channel track base
but rather than the channel track train, this base came with one of the smallest handcars Marx ever offered.
Donald and Mickey handcars - flanged wheel (l) and non-flanged wheel (r) versions
shown here with the O gauge flanged wheel version that was offered separately with a small circle of clockwork, 2-rail track; the version on the right is the correct windup handcar for the litho base. unfortunately Donald is sitting a bit low on that one awaiting repair after a transport mishap. ...i hate it when that happens!
Greenberg lists an electric version of this handcar and if anyone has ever seen an example, i sure would like to hear about it.
well, that's it for my Disney/ Marx, but a little more channel track when i get the time.
cheers...gary
balidas I've never seen this before. This is interesting. About what scale is this? My sister and my girlfriend would both love to have these.
huh... a girlfriend who like trains? i didn't think they made those. historically i've found it's best not to mention the hobby until about the 15th date.
as with most tinplate, scale is a tough call where prototype examples never existed, but if size really matters, the channel track cars have a gauge of about 1" and the litho bases are 13" x 21½". the Donald & Mickey handcar is the largest piece at 5" in length with the #3462 tender being the smallest at 2" long.
again i'll mention the very obvious, though, that you'll usually be competing with W.D.P. collectors. locating these sets in categories such as tin windup toys typically draws much less attention than those listed under Disneyana. luckily many Marx collectors dismiss the Disney trains as being too "toy-like", ...not sure why, but i find that kind of amusing.
good luck...gary
Well my girlfriend grew up around trains. Her dad, his brothers and her grandfather were all model train enthusiasts. She likes most the prewar lithographed Marx.
Taking an exception from simply reading this thread, I just wanted to pop in and comment that it is terrific. Marx is very collectable, colorful and fun and affordable. I am glad to see forum members diverging from Lionel ( as much as I enjoy the brand) to cover prewar Flyer and now Marx. To me these threads constitute as much enjoyment as any one article I have read, either at TCA or elsewhere. Keep up the great work.
I just rebuilt my M1000 using a grafted motor using the adapter mounting bracket I got..good for another several decades, beyond my lifetime..rewarding is one word for this sort of enjoyable preservation.. You folks have got the photography down..the images are great!
http://www.youtube.com/user/justtupinsan?feature=mhee
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Wallyworld, I enjoyed seeing your clockwork layout in operation! You did a lot in a little space, great to see the windups in action.
Looking back through this thread, I noticed that we haven't touched on the Mercury's yet. Of course, I'm a clockwork enthusiast, so that's what I'll concentrate on. I do have to admit, I don't have nearly the variety of Mercury locomotives as I do CV's, but this will get the ball rolling...
First up, a run of the mill clockwork Mercury that I restored:
Nameplates, handrails and the stack are all reproduction parts from Grossman. This is just a typical Mercury with Tab and Slot couplers, windup motor w/ bell & sparker, and blackened wheels and motor sideplates that are typical of postwar Marx windups. Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate!
Another version of the Marx Mechanical Mercury:
I know that it appears to just be an unrestored version of the first Mercury, but this little jewel is a whistling version. You can't tell the difference from this angle, but the windup motor has the whistle that can be seen either through the stack or from the bottom of the locomotive. I mentioned it in one of the CV posts, but it is worth repeating that the Mercury whistler (which - as far as I can tell - was only offered postwar) has a slightly different mechanism than the rarer CV whistler (which - as far as I can tell - was only offered in 1942). It pays to "inspect the wheels" when buying a windup Mercury to see if it is a whistler or not... I wouldn't call them rare, but the plain sparker version is a lot more common.
Mercury's were offered with Tab & Slot couplers for 6" tin trains, or an articulated coupler for the articulated passenger trains:
As you can see, the Mercury on the left has the coupling for the articulated trains, while the one on the right has the good old Tab & Slot coupler. The difference is in the floor of the cab, which is a separate part of the body that is held in place by tabs bent over through slots in the side of the cab. As a side note, the blue Mercury on the left was originally red, it is a custom repaint in a darker blue than Marx used on their blue versions.
I don't have any examples yet, but windup Mercury's were also offered with reversing motors. I know that the windup versions were available in black, red and the rare blue... I won't comment on any other colors - either clockwork or electric - since I haven't had the chance the research the Merc's in the same manner as the CV's.
Speaking of CV's, there is often confusion between the CV and Mercury by some who aren't as familiar with Marx. Here are a couple of pictures so you can see the differences:
Here is a Mercury on the left, compared to a CV on the right. The Merc has a rounder nose than the CV's shovel-shaped snout. The Mercury headlight is smaller than the open bezel used on the CV. Also, the shape of the opening by the front drivers is slightly different... the Merc has a bigger radius as it curves up when compared to the CV. There is also a slight difference in the cab roof:
Note how the Mercury's roof (left) is smooth from left to right, while the CV's roof (right) has little bends just in from the sides of the cab. Another thing to note is that the Mercury only has a smokestack, no domes. A CV will have one or two domes, depending on its age.
So, there is a basic primer on the Mercury... hopefully others can fill in some pictures of the electrics and other variations.
- James
JamesP .... Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate! ...
.... Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate! ...
i'm not sure if you observed this James, but when you do run clockwork locomotives, especially at ground level, it doesn't take long before you realize why the front of so many seen for sale seem to be a lot more are scratched and damaged up front than their electric counterparts. if an electric trains jumps the track, without power it tends to stop rather quickly, whereas windup motors know no such limitation and will often continue running until they find a chair, table leg or wall.
i was photographing some Marx 3/16" scale cars today and have a little more editing to do on those, but since James brought up the Mercury, here are a couple i usually have out on display when not running them so they were handy to pose quickly.
Clockwork (whistling) and Electric (9 VDC motor) Mercury locomotives & tenders
big L may have its famous Blue Comet and if you have the $ there are typically half a dozen or more for sale every year, but though only realizing a fraction of the cost of a Comet even on the best day, the Marx blue Mercury set shows up considerably less often. fitted with the whistling clockwork motor, it pulled a unique blue livery version of the standard Marx 6" passenger cars. the tender shown is one of two that were included in sets, the other being a blue version of the standard NYC rivet tender.
Blue livery 6" Montclair coach & Observation Car
it would have been nice if my 3-car set had included both named 6" passengers cars, but due to stock shortages that may have existed on any particular day at the factory, many Marx sets seem to show up with substitute cars and passenger sets were no different. this set was packed with two Montclair coaches, though it could have just as well contained two Bogota coaches or probably the most desirable combination being one each. most Marx 6" passenger sets, even electrics, were typically 3-car consists.
once again Marx got the quality control a little wrong on this set and the locomotive blue is generally much lighter than the cars which are also typically a little deeper blue than the frames.
Greenberg claims that only the red Mercury was made postwar, but with plastic wheels on this set and a definitely postwar box (fairly fatigued so in storage), i've got to think the blue set was also postwar; more than likely early-mid 1950's. i do believe the Greenberg statement that the whistling mechanism added too much complexity to the clockwork drive so was not a very long lived option contributing even more to the rarity of this set.
Mercury locomotive with articulated tender
a slightly more popular livery for the Mercury loco was in red (some with a chrome front) as both electric and windup versions. this example is a later model which was sold as a battery (trackside) operated set which i will describe in a little more detail at a later date.
Mercury locomotive standard tab/ slot (l) and articulated (r) couplers
but being an articulated coupler version, i wanted to show another view of the cab deck difference between the two. what i assume is a very (very) old price of $4.79 stays indelibly marked in the blue Merc cab since it's not noticeable when coupled and the thought of removing any paint with strong solvents is always an undesirable action. on painted or litho surfaces, the strongest cleanser i use is a mild dish-washing liquid.
with these two locomotives, it might be a good idea to again mention that with the right tools and experience as James has shown with his very nice Mercury restoration back to original black, in another modeler's hands could just as easily become a refinish to another color including the rare Marx blue. unfortunately there is no simple test to identify a repaint but after you've looked at enough examples, the inherent imperfections of original finishes (shells were dip painted, not brushed or sprayed) and consistency of wear become the best indications for red or green flags.
overlandflyer and if i could just wrap this post up with a slightly off topic plug (which i hope will be allowed)...
and if i could just wrap this post up with a slightly off topic plug (which i hope will be allowed)...
I could care less what you put on here, just as long as it is related somehow to what is being discussed.
I've never seen passenger cars for channel track before.
I think the Mercury's got covered pretty quick! Even to this day, "Brand L" has never made one, proving that Marx is better on they're streamliners.
Since you mentioned running your trains Gary, then you would obviously have a layout, right?
Trevor
tjl0824 ... I've never seen passenger cars for channel track before. I think the Mercury's got covered pretty quick! Even to this day, "Brand L" has never made one, proving that Marx is better on they're streamliners. Since you mentioned running your trains Gary, then you would obviously have a layout, right?
... I've never seen passenger cars for channel track before.
1) here's a channel track passenger train that took me about a decade to find...
Ranger Steel Products (Brooklyn, NY) channel track passenger train
more often seen as a small freight train in green livery, the Ranger RR was one of the few channel track roadnames that had a small variety of pieces beyond the initial set.
2) so you think that's it for the Mercury?
3) as to a home layout, anything that requires permanent space doesn't seem to work well on the upper condo floors and a recent diversion to small scale (HA!) and slightly larger live steam has claimed any leftover garage space, but the "hardwood central" gets setup and runs quite often.
stay tuned. cheers...gary
Gary, I love those two Mercurys!
I think the evidence certainly points to the Blue Mercury as being a postwar set; one theory is that it was offered in the 1950 Ward's catalog p. 136. That ad doesn't describe the color of the train except to say it is "...lithographed with authentic details in bright colors." The ad is typical catalog sepia tone, although the train is certainly lighter in color than the black trains around it, the locomotive being comparable in tone to the Disney train above it, and the locomotive is definitely lighter than the remainder of the train, just like Gary's blue Mercury. Marx must have had trouble matching the blue paint on the locomotive to the blue ink on the lithographed cars. The red Mercury locomotive seems to be well matched to the red cars, which is typical of the examples I have seen. The blue cars and locomotives that I have observed seem to be all over the place, shade-wise!
A little more Mercury catalog information: The Mercury first shows up in Ward's 1937 catalog on p. 53 - an electric sparker with a grill decal above the headlight... presumably in gray. It has a 6" tin freight train with Tab & Slot couplers. I have a partial picture of what is reportedly a Sears 1938 catalog (must be the Wishbook, it's not the same as the '38 fall catalog) that shows a non-sparking electric articulated. Sears has a wind-up reversing articulated Mercury in the 1939 Fall catalog, p. 895... for the low price of $1.00! Just a few of the early advertisements; one of these days I will go through and attempt to document the Merc timeline in a similar manner to the CV's.
As a side note, I noticed that Gary's Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with siderods (on most locomotives that used them) had a hole in the driver and the siderods had a Z-bend tab that fits in the hole. I have also seen windup Mercurys (and one 591) with this same staked siderod. I wish there was a timeline correlation with the transition from the windup motor w/ ratchet to the windup motor w/ ratcheting gear and the change from 7 spoke stamped drivers to the 14 spoke diecast drivers, but I have seen what I consider original examples of both motors with both kinds of drivers. Very confusing... and very typical of Marx!
And finally, a comment on the restorations / repainting... anytime I repaint or customize a locomotive, I take a paint marker and make a note to that effect on the underside of the locomotive somewhere. I also include my name and date for future reference. Like most everyone in the toy train world, I don't want people to think that my projects are originals or some rare variation. I know I would never pass them off as such; but marking them will help keep them from being mistaken for something they are not in the future. This was an idea that I picked up from the guys on the Marx Group... I thought it was a great idea and have used it ever since.
I'm looking forward to more pictures & information!
JamesP Gary, I love those two Mercurys! ... As a side note, I noticed that Gary's Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with siderods (on most locomotives that used them) had a hole in the driver and the siderods had a Z-bend tab that fits in the hole. And finally, a comment on the restorations / repainting... - James
...
As a side note, I noticed that Gary's Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with siderods (on most locomotives that used them) had a hole in the driver and the siderods had a Z-bend tab that fits in the hole.
And finally, a comment on the restorations / repainting...
i know that after a while people would stop believing my "unbelievable deal" stories so i don't really try to pass the blue Merc set off as one and at the time (long before my addiction to live steam) was the most i had ever paid for any train set, but as i mentioned already, ...not easy to locate in original C7 condition. and despite Marx sometimes lack of color QC, this set has unusually closely-matched frames.
Marx is so diverse it's very hard to pick a favorite, but these two sets are definitely in my top 10. i need to find an HO power pack to run to red set more often. the external battery pack takes 6 D cells.
whistling clockwork (l) and 9vdc (r) non-reversing motors
here are the two Mercury motors out of the shell. James, are you sure you ID'ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
a good visual to see just what was involved with the whistle mechanism. a fast internal gear train spun a propeller-type wheel inside the housing, while a geared down external wheel, timed the baffle opening for a grade crossing sequence (over, and over, and over ....again). unlike the simple mainspring to wheels linkage, ...so many things to possibly go wrong.
James, ...you have no idea how many times i rewrote that paragraph on restoration an repainting. every time i read it back it seemed like there was a way you could take it that an artist as yourself could be passing off forged pieces, while also attempting to compliment your work. James and others can likely attest to seeing some amazing Marx, not only restorations, but repaints that seriously outclass anything Marx ever produced. and hopefully i got the point across, many times that is the red flag. the finish is just TOO good. i looked at the two Mercury shells this evening while pulling out the motors and it is easy to pick up the original paint runs around the edges in just the right light, but unfortunately very difficult to catch on CCD.
overlandflyer James, are you sure you ID'ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
James, are you sure you ID'ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
Ooops... that's I get for posting when I'm tired! Those certainly aren't 14 spokers on your red Mercury; but I have seen pics of two different Mercury windups with the 14 spoke drivers that have the siderods staked on a cast-in pin. ...And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
Gary, I didn't take any offense to the post about refurbished vs original... it was worded just fine - nothing accusing about it - and it had very good information that we all need to be aware of. I know that both of us want honesty & integrity in the collectable toy train world.
Having said that, it is an unfortunate fact that at times, refurbished items are sometimes passed off as originals, either on purpose or due to a lack of knowledge. It is a great benefit of this thread that anyone who is interested in Marx can learn what to look for to discern an original from a restored or refurbished item. I hope that other "tinkerers" such as myself will might consider marking their projects in an inconspicuous place, so that future collectors will know the pedigree of those items. Just an idea to help avoid future confusion... now back to the Marx trains!
JamesP ...And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
...And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
just another example of what i meant by "consistent wear". i wouldn't expect to find a grimy motor in what cosmetically looks to be a little used set. electrics have even a better indication in that the Marx skid pickups will definitely show wear over time and heavy use. the pickup on the d/c motored Mercury also shows little if any wear which is also consistent with the condition of the shell.
one good thing Greenberg did for collectors was to introduce a standardized means of identification for frames, trucks and couplers. the book uses drawings to show the different types, but i think pictures do a better job especially with 8 wheel trucks. let's start with type A...
Marx 8 wheel 6" tin boxcar with A truck type
type A trucks
found on Marx 6" tin with either tab and slot or automatic, one-way couplers, there are two distinct variations, however, both look identical from a normal side view...
type A trucks - variation
the difference being in a punched out area just above the side frame detail. adding a bit more realism to the 6" tin, 4 wheel frame cars, this first 8 wheel truck was eliminated from the Marx inventory after WWII with the introduction in 1942 of the more realistic scale cars and scale truck design.
Marx 3/16" scale boxcar with B truck type
type B 'scale' truck
one of their nicest looking and lowest riding trucks, the type B (also referred to as their 'scale' truck) appears mostly on metal 3/16" scale cars though it can be found on some early plastic cars and 7" cabooses. literally made from 'tin plated' sheet metal, typical trucks are found worn and in far less pristine condition than the example pictured.
Marx 3/16" scale passenger car with C truck type
type C truck
the diecast type C trucks were used on 3/16" passenger cars and the (9551) NYC diecast tender. shown here with right hand wound springs, there is a note in Greenberg that pieces with either right hand or left hand springs exist, but i do not have any other examples with the few passenger cars i have.
Marx 3/16" scale tanker with D truck type
type D trucks - (top to bottom) RH springs, LH springs, worn die embossing
why Marx abandoned the scale B trucks on its 3/16" scale cars later in their production was probably due to their initial use to raise the heights for compatibility with their 7" sets of the early 1950's, but regardless of the reason, the change spelled the end of their albeit small but scale 'looking' O gauge and Marx eventually switched the use of scale to refer to their later 1950's venture into HO.
the spring winding orientation is much more evident in the D trucks and examples of both right hand and left hand wound springs can easily be found. late in their production, the stamping dies really started to show wear with much of the detail blurred or missing.
Marx plastic tender with G truck type
type G truck
with the same Bettendorf style as the type B scale trucks, the stamped metal G truck was perhaps the most prolific produced by Marx and was the staple truck for their medium to deluxe plastic cars through the end of their production.
as i mentioned previously, i'm not much of a Marx plastic collector and the last two truck types, E & F, were molded plastic and used exclusively on some deluxe plastic cars and on later 3/16" scale passenger cars. hopefully someone contributing plastic series car information will touch on their use though i might come across a few examples eventually.
Although I wouldn't call myself a plastic collector, I still have quite a few pieces belonging to this category. To finish up what Gary started, here are the other two types of trucks:
First, Type E, or deluxe trucks
overlandflyer literally made from 'tin plated' sheet metal, typical trucks are found worn and in far less pristine condition than the example pictured.
literally made from 'tin plated' sheet metal, typical trucks are found worn and in far less pristine condition than the example pictured.
Here's what "typical" trucks are going to look like
The mixing of coupler types in a single consist is one of the less covered topics on Marx that I am glad you mentioned.
tjl0824 Later on (I'm not sure of the exact date) the dummy knuckle coupler was added to the mix, ... Trevor
the more realistic plastic knuckle coupler became the new fixed coupler for 6" & 7" tin and 4-wheel plastic cars, however, for 6" tin car clockwork sets, sliding tab & slot couplers were still used. to make use of the rolling stock already out there, Marx did a great job with a compatible design.
*collector alert*... reproduction plastic knuckle couplers are available. actually a good thing because as rugged as they are, knuckles aren't as kid-proof as the metal tabs and it's not that unusual to spot a broken coupler knuckle or two in a well used set. they are rivet attached to the frame, but Robert Grossman Co. (well known Marx replacement parts source) also has rivets and a setting tool to do the job correctly.
here is another shot of the metal vs. plastic fork/ tilt couplers. the hole in the metal coupler serves no real operational purpose and its existence has been theorized as a registration point for the stamping process. it was a nice innovation to include the tab slot in the plastic version.
frankly i find that the two types generally couple very nicely with the main tuning adjustment sometimes being the proper seating of the two light springs; at times a frustrating chore. from my experience scale cars with either type auto couplers tend to max out at about 15 car consists when the strain on the head end couplers just becomes too great. a slightly serendipitous confidence in that's just about the same number of different scale cars that Marx ever made.
listed in a major auction house lot as "CV Loco, clock work untested; ..." it was obvious that only a very brief look if any at all was given by the appraisers and with seeing what was probably thought to be the standard clockwork brake protruding from the boiler, it was misidentified in their catalog.
even from the small auction pictures (this was only 1 piece of the lot along with 11 early frame cars), it was easy to spot the swing peg coupler and from my winning bid i would have been happy to get an early clockwork CV, but to my surprise, what arrived was an early electric CV.
possibly only made in 1934, the manual reverse was quickly replaced with a toggling solenoid design making this motor quite a rare find. i only have one other example and it is in an M10000 streamliner (without siderods).
the fanstock clip up front provided an attachment point for the locomotive headlight.
despite the fairly solid C6 condition, as was mentioned earlier, this is one locomotive you wouldn't want to restore. the only exception i sometimes make is to the wiring (often trying to use a period replacement piece if possible) to restore operational capability, but this one as found was fairly sound and not surprisingly for Marx, worked right out of the bubble wrap.
[note: reformat fix: 16 Aug]
Gary brought up a good point about CV's - and Marx locomotives in general, since most of them came in electric and windup versions - when it comes to identifying motors in pictures. I think we may have touched on this before, but always look carefully at the lever - notice that the early electric manual reverse lever is almost square on the end, whereas most Marx clockwork brake levers have a round end. The exception is the reversing windups; they have a lever that is bent over 90 degrees and can be easily confused in a picture with the square ended electric reverse lever. Another tip is to always look at the area between the drivers... with a clockwork, the area is plain, but on an electric you will see either gears or a brushplate, depending on the side. If the underside is visible, the difference between a clockwork and electric is obvious... do you see gears or a sliding pickup? But, when looking at the underside of a CV or Mercury windup, always look for the tell-tale "blob" in the smokebox which would indicate a whistling motor! Many times, the whistle may not work even if the mechanism winds and runs, so the seller may not realize it is a whistler. Usually, the chamber has dirt or spiderwebs in it, so you merely have to take it apart and clean it to make it work. The last thing to look for in a bottom view of a windup CV (in particular, an early windup swing-peg CV) is the hub behind one of the front wheels for the wheel governor. A clockwork swingpeg should have a wheel governor, and even very early CV's w/ Slot & Tab couplers could have one. Also, early Marx electrics have two small sliding electrical pickups, whereas later electrics have a one-piece slider. I'm not well versed on when the change was made, so someone else will have to fill in the details on that!
Anyway, these are a few things that can help you determine a) what you are actually seeing in the picture and b) if the locomotive has the proper motor in it. Marx motors are largely interchangeable, so it pays to learn about the different motors and locomotives so you can make informed decisions about your purchases.
Also, let me just say again how much I am enjoying this thread. I have already learned a lot, and can't wait to learn even more!
as i mentioned with the military cars, the extended play value of anything on a flat car made them quite popular with the original owners as stand-alone toys separated from their rail car base, the collector effect being that of often finding a flat without the load. this problem is often even more compounded when a relative eventually discovers an old set but doesn't make the connection thus selling the train and loads separately.
by 1938, (though there is some evidence that points to late 1937), the development of the Marx 6" tin line reached a state where frame and basic car designs would continue practically unchanged through the next four decades. and though these body styles appeared in many other roadnames and liveries, the core "550" series cars were the first produced and likely the most recognizable as classic Marx tin.
already showing a few of the earlier 8-wheel red frame cars, there is some evidence that the red litho frame 4-wheel cars were the first released with the new frame design, but speculation that difficulties in accurate litho registration prompted the change to a plain black frame within the first year of production.
i've seen two examples of boxed red litho frame sets, and they both contained the same locomotive...
...the black nameplate CV with a black frame rivet tender. i've seen a few examples of the 551 tender on a red litho frame and must admit the red/ black/white contrast makes it sharp looking, but it was never produced by Marx. the 551 tender frame in this style should always be plain black, though missing practically any tender specific details, this car is quite often posed within a freight consist rather than directly behind the locomotive.
the very common Rock Island gondolas were eventually made in a number of different detail color variations, but these two liveries are the only two that should be on the early red litho frames.
two staple fuels of railroading, Oil & Coal were represented (quite regionally accurate, if i might add) with the Santa Fe oil tanker and Northern Pacific coal hopper. the NP hopper also legitimately appeared in a red livery, but personally i think the blue is a better match for the red litho frame.
the last car styles included the blue roof, C&S reefer with doors in the very versatile boxcar shape that went on to sport many different roadnames and liveries, and probably the most recognizable of all, the #556 NYC caboose. other than very minor variations to the graphics, including a few slight changes in the "556" font style, the basic NYC 'classic red' caboose likely appeared in more freight sets than any other 6" tin car.
two sliding shoe pickup powered cars were also made in the short, red litho frame time period but i only have one of the two, the 561 searchlight car which used the same lamp as the 410 searchlight accessory shown above. missing from the picture to complete the entire offering of red frame cars is the 559 floodlight car; two smaller lights mounted on basically the same flatcar base with center rail electric pickup.
as previously mentioned (perhaps a number of times by now), it is unfortunate that body / frame swaps on Marx 6" tin are remarkably easy to perform and collectors should always approach uncommon pieces with prudence. it's hard to say 'never' with Marx, but with a little education, it eventually becomes easy to spot the very suspicious pieces.
removed by me.
Great Info & Photos thanks for taking the time to share with us! I have some questions -
Anyone have some info on Marx Track? I'm wondering how to sort out my box of track it is mixed Marx 3 rail and Lionel o-27, I once read that the way the rail bottoms either fold up or down is a good indicator. Which is which?
Also I'd be lnterested in seeing some 50s battery powered or plastic wheeled cars with the punched in place tab & slot couplers, I have some of these cars but no loco, I'm wondering what would have pulled it? And how many different cars were available in this style? Anyone have some?
I have a Union Pacific tender & Caboose, a B&O Gondola (I was able to make the gondola from a spare parts body with a bad frame and a good plastic wheel frame I had) Did Marx ever make a yellow B&O gondola in this style car?
All my marx cars have 4 plastic wheels and Punched Tab & Slot Couplers....Can these cars be modified to run behind a Marx electric loco? They jam up & short out the center rail when it goes in reverse.
-Jason
rack776 ... Also I'd be interested in seeing some 50s battery powered or plastic wheeled cars with the punched in place tab & slot couplers, I have some of these cars but no loco, I'm wondering what would have pulled it? And how many different cars were available in this style? Anyone have some? I have a Union Pacific tender & Caboose, a B&O Gondola (I was able to make the gondola from a spare parts body with a bad frame and a good plastic wheel frame I had) Did Marx ever make a yellow B&O gondola in this style car? All my Marx cars have 4 plastic wheels and Punched Tab & Slot Couplers....Can these cars be modified to run behind a Marx electric loco? They jam up & short out the center rail when it goes in reverse. -Jason
Also I'd be interested in seeing some 50s battery powered or plastic wheeled cars with the punched in place tab & slot couplers, I have some of these cars but no loco, I'm wondering what would have pulled it? And how many different cars were available in this style? Anyone have some?
All my Marx cars have 4 plastic wheels and Punched Tab & Slot Couplers....Can these cars be modified to run behind a Marx electric loco? They jam up & short out the center rail when it goes in reverse.
unfortunately the best way to describe Marx track is through pictures and i'm going to have to wait on that.
sounds like the collection of the Marx you describe is from the 1960's which saw some of the last of the metal cars and clockwork locomotive sets. and though those plastic wheeled cars are metal, they were probably headed up by a #400 or #401 plastic shell clockwork locomotive which both came in numerous variations including color (grey or black), wheel type, w/wo siderods, etc with even some mechanical smokers (using a dry powder) and at least one battery powered model.
i doubt if an electrical short would be a problem with sliding tab&slot couplers, but you're probably correct in anticipating a slight jam-up that might occur when a long string of sliding tabs is shifted into reverse. very slowly might be the ticket there. the upside is hearing all those couplers popping back into position as the train reverts to forward again.
there are at least 3-4 dozen 6" tin cars that were made with sliding couplers for clockwork sets with a good number of those being common enough to find in a relatively short time. as mentioned in an earlier post i would really recommend Walt Hiteshew's "Definitive Guide to Marx 6" Tin" as the best reference to see what was made and general level of availability (findability?). alternately, keep looking into this string and within time, i'm sure some pictures will eventually pop up.
in regard to the B&O gondola question, yes, the #241708 yellow B&O gondola is indeed Marx. the two most common versions have either a red or a gray interior.
by the way, nothing wrong with being a purist, but with the already mentioned compatibility of Marx coupler styles, you really needn't limit your consists to only sliding couplers. one or two fixed tab or even plastic knuckle coupled cars withing a consist will probably not overly effect a clockwork loco's performance.
there is also nothing wrong with mixing plastic and metal wheel cars. frankly many of the cars i have that originally had plastic wheels i have stored away and replaced with metal wheels to save on wear. can't say i also don't like the increase in the passive "sound system", though.
I have not seen many 7" Marx sets pictured on here yet, This set is a little rough & rusty, has no boxes but it is priceless to me it was bought for my Dad by my Grandfather in the 1950s. Must be one of the only marx locos that did not run with some oil in history, it had a stripped idler gear...I found it was caused by the side rod jamming up against a replacement motor mount screw that was slightly too long. I found a gear and all is well now, even the original light bulb still works! Anyone have more info on this set or a date when it was produced?
I did not appreciate how much work goes into taking photos & writing a post untill I tried it my self!
Thanks for all the hard work guys especially - Overlandflyer & James P!
I have a 4040 set in the white box. Can anyone tell me the correct transformer for this set?
hscsltb I have a 4040 set in the white box. Can anyone tell me the correct transformer for this set?
there are a few different verified versions of the #4040 set, but all seem to be headed up by either the #400 or #490 locomotive and include 4 wheel plastic cars. a small, 25W #309 or #329 transformer was more than likely correct for any of these sets.
With a bit of trepidation, I will attempt a post on the forum's new format!
Taking a bit of a break from my primary Marx obsession (windup locomotives), Gary's previous post w/ the Red Litho Framed 6" tin got me to thinking about some of the 6" tin cabooses Marx produced. There have been several pictures of them posted in the previous pages - some of them of hard to find variations - but I'll post a few of the cabooses, most of them very common Marx items. If you want to start collecting 6" tin on a budget, I recommend picking up a few of these!
First up, the not-so-common #694:
I wanted to start with the #694 because it is the earliest Marx caboose - of course, the Joy Line cabooses do predate it. The #694 with Joy Line couplers came out in 1935, with the change to Tab & Slot couplers happening in '36. The #694 changed again in '36 from a black frame with silver litho detail to just a plain black frame and produced into 1937.
Now, on to a few 556 cabooses:
A #556 with a red lithographed frame - these date from around 1937-'38.
Here is an early #556 caboose on a black frame with riveted Slot & Tab couplers. One way to tell if a #556 is early is to look at the door on the end – the early ones have a slot underneath the door, a holdover from the #694 with Joy Line couplers. Later cabooses did not have the slot under the door. This example would be from the 1937-'42 time frame.
…and my last #556, a later one with black plastic wheels and a twisted (sliding) Slot & Tab coupler. Sliding twisted Slot & Tab couplers were used from about 1938-’48, but plastic wheels were introduced in the late ‘40’s so that helps to date the car. Note the lack of the handrail/ladder on the back of the car… this is a typical clockwork set caboose, with sliding couplers, plastic wheels and no extra parts! Marx quit putting a coupler on the rear of the caboose, too. The windup sets were the low cost, entry level trains, so anything that wasn't needed was left off to keep the price down.
Finally, a couple of later cabooses that are definitely plentiful & cheap:
The typical Union Pacific #3824 caboose, made from around 1952 until 1972. Although there are a couple of uncommon variations (brown frame, yellow cupola windows), most of them look like this one. This caboose has punched Slot & Tab couplers and plastic wheels.
Finally, the NYC #20102 caboose, same basic era as the UP #3824. Again, there are some uncommon variations out there - like the one with a plastic "wedge" on the underside of the frame to throw switches automatically - but most of them will look like this picture.
Depending on when the various cabooses were made and what trains sets they were included in, you might find the same caboose with slot & tab couplers (riveted, twisted or punched) or plastic knuckle couplers. Wheels might be metal or plastic. There are a lot of variations out there, too. Once again, if you are serious about collecting 6” tin, I would suggest getting “The Definitive Guide to Marx Trains Six-Inch Tin & Joy Line” CD… it is a great reference!
I have a photo of the Brown Frame version of the Union Pacific Caboose pictured above that I can share,
Does anyone have any tips on how to post photos in the new forum yet? I tried to follow the instructions in my flickr account but all it posted was the html junk, Now I cant figure out how to go back into an old post & edit it. Is there a FAQ or something I am missing or is it just glitches in the forum?
Hi Rack776,
To edit your post, there is a small pencil icon in the lower left corner of each of your posts. Click on that, and you will be able to edit it.
To post a picture, highlight and copy the url of your picture... this is one from your previous post:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8448/7798981788_be335c13e7.jpg
Click on the "Insert Image" icon at the top of the text box when posting. It is seventh icon to the left of the smiley face, and resembles a polaroid picture with a + on the lower right corner of it. If you hover your cursor over it, it will display "Insert Image". When you click it, it will bring up a box that will prompt you to paste the url into it. Then click insert and viola:
I have found a few bugs in the new forum, but I'm sure they will get sorted out. This type of thing happens everytime a forum changes or updates their software. My previous post lost a couple of pictures and some text that I had to edit back in!
Looking forward to seeing your brown-frame UP caboose - that's one I don't have in my little collection yet.
Hey thanks for the help with posting the photos! You guys are the first in any forum to take the time to help me understand what you have to do.....not just "Use the search function" I appreciate it!
Lets see if the photo lesson works- WHOO HOO! It did.
Here is my partial set with the the brown frame UP caboose, it has sliding slot & tab couplers and plastic wheels (well 3 good ones and 1 broken one anyway ) I hope to complete this set with the proper track, Loco & wheel by digging for bargans at the local train show.
I edited my previous post above about the 7" Tin set so that the photos post correectly Check it out....anyone have any more info on that set or when it was produced?
Marx Punched Sliding Tab & Slot Coupler Plastic Wheel U.P. Caboose - Brown Frame Variation
Marx Punched Sliding Tab & Slot Coupler Plastic Wheel B&O Gondola
Marx Punched Sliding Tab & Slot Coupler Plastic Wheel U.P. Tender
Well thats all the Marx I have is this partial set and my 7" set above .
I'll be looking for more, I really enjoy the simplicity & lithography of these "toy" trains.
Keep the updates comming I like this thread, -Jason
rack776 Does anyone have any tips on how to post photos in the new forum yet?
Does anyone have any tips on how to post photos in the new forum yet?
apparently there was a bug in the posting software that would balk on "~" or "%7E" (hex for '~') in the URL. if this was affecting anyone besides me, it should be fixed now.
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