Penny Trains I suppose all of this is academic. The better question is who can afford them at all? I just picked up the Lionel 2011 Signature and MTH 2011 V2 cats today and I can't really even afford a boxcar. My LHS gives me the catalogs for free so I collect them regardless of wether or not I can afford any of the trains inside. So made in China, Japan, Taiwan, USA, Mexico, Korea or Botswana is irrellevant when you're poor. Becky
I suppose all of this is academic. The better question is who can afford them at all? I just picked up the Lionel 2011 Signature and MTH 2011 V2 cats today and I can't really even afford a boxcar. My LHS gives me the catalogs for free so I collect them regardless of wether or not I can afford any of the trains inside. So made in China, Japan, Taiwan, USA, Mexico, Korea or Botswana is irrellevant when you're poor.
Becky
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
Well said Becky. I consider myself lucky that I picked up most of the postwar stuff that interested me last Christmas. I suspect many will be grabbing postwar items, rather than paying the outrageous prices of new stuff. And I think people are going to be a lot more selective about what they buy, too.
Virginian Railroad
And I think people are going to be a lot more selective about what they buy, too.
The Lionel and MTH catalogs along with Atlas and Weaver focus on a segment of the O Gauge population that have financial resources to afford $50 to $80 rolling stock and $600 to $1600 locos.
Lionel and MTH do release starter sets that cater to the folks that do not want to invest in the higher end of the hobby. IMO, the number of folks that were spending the big bucks for the high end rolling stock and locos is shrinking for numerous reasons.
I think over the next decade we will see a restructuring of the electric train industry where Williams and RMT will be taking a larger piece of the consumer market from the other 4 manufactures. Reduced bells & whistles and just solid running, less expensive electric trains.
For example at York I purchased 2 of RMT's beer hoppers from a large dealer for $27 each. None of the big 4 has anything comparable in quality for that price.
Bill T.
A few thoughts on this cost factor. I just bought some tinplate and the Kevin, the fellow that has a sizable store on Ebay, told me that Ebay costs are going up at the end of the month by 100%..I don't know personally if this is true. If so.. another venue is getting squeezed. Has anyone else heard this?
I am either in the trending or at the leading edge as I stopped about 80% of my purchases, and am focusing on what I have due to the rising costs elsewhere ( gas, food.etc)...What strikes me is how the big guys in the hobby are going against the economic trending...which seems counter intuitive to common sense. Either way, I have pretty much folded..too rich a game.Still looking for ever rarer bargains.
I saw that Lionel demonstrated cylinder exhaust as a new feature, and thought to myself, whether rightly or wrongly, why are they adding new features when the base line is so high compared to a flat wage versus the cost of living sky rocketing?
I am not criticizing indirectly those who think this is terrific, but what is wrong with this picture? Nothing?
To me all the promotional stuff about growing the hobby in light of this seems sort of silly.
What is peculiar is that Lionel and MTH have the brain trusts to be innovative in bringing costs down while exploring new technologies.. How do I know this? I have a garden railroad which was a trend before LGB went bust..I bought a Lionel G Scale PRR set for $50.00 which is the engine, (2-8-2) track, tender, caboose and gondola..and it is radio controlled..has steam sounds, a bell and whistle. It's a lot of affordable fun. Plug and play outdoors..I plan to modify the loco with Bachman parts..Yes, it is kinda crude, but no more crude than a lot of post war stuff. I thought this would be cool in O gauge.Runs on C cells or rechargeable Nicads.
..
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
I don't think Lionel or MTH will ever completely eliminate the high end stuff. They will most likely cut back on HOW MANY they make, but they will still make them. One has to realize that those that ARE truly "wealthy" really aren't going to be hit as hard as the rest of us with price increases because they know how to protect that wealth. That's why the ridiculous class warfare being endorsed by the current administration makes so little sense. They are defining "wealthy" as those making $250,000 and more. Sorry, but people with a family of 4 make that much and need to just to stay afloat. If you took every penny that "wealthy" people made in one year away from them, it wouldn't make a dent in the deficit or debt.Anyway, what I'm saying is no matter how bad the economy gets, there WILL be a high end product produced by Lionel and MTH because there ARE people who will buy it. Those people aren't in the least bit worried about "bringing the price down". They are more worried about actually getting their hands on the product. Also notice that Lionel is already creating an overlap of high end and Traditional products by making O-Scale locos without all the bells and whistles. I'm not sure how successful that strategy is. I wish they would also offer upgrade kits to allow users to upgrade those locos at some future date.
I do have to agree Becky, one thing at a time, with 2 daughters in college, I have to prioritize. I also have to shop wisely, between oberlin, amherst, cleveland, and Medina, there is usually a difference. I do try and shop at just one store, unless the price difference is substancial.
Going back to Wally's original idea, here's a hypothetical question.
Since there appears to be a demand for reliable low cost trains, was it a mistake for Lionel to shut down the Mount Clemens facility? To elaborate, if they still posessed the old tooling and manufacturing machines, would they now in 2011 be focusing more on producing basic "scout" type equipment as Lionel did in the 60's instead of focusing on expensive stock which produces fewer sales?
Also, I'm sure many of us are familiar with the comment cards that MTH places, or did place, in their stock. Several years ago when I was employed and could afford $30 for a new car once in awhile, I used to fill them out and send them in. I often pleaded for lower priced products in the Tinplate line and even suggested that a plastic 400E would be a good idea. I'm just curious what others may have suggested over the years and wether or not Lionel, MTH or anyone else ever seemed to listen?
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
wallyworld A few thoughts on this cost factor. I just bought some tinplate and the Kevin, the fellow that has a sizable store on Ebay, told me that Ebay costs are going up at the end of the month by 100%..I don't know personally if this is true. If so.. another venue is getting squeezed. Has anyone else heard this?
They are going to charge more through the final value fee by including the shipping price in the percentage of the (FVF) final value fee. For instance if you were able to get a train car for 10 dollars and the shipping was also 10 dollars... The seller would now pay a percentage based on 20 dollars rather than 10 like it used to be. That is in addition to the listing fee, if any and Paypal fee plus Paypal percentage. Works out great for ebay.
Penny Trains Going back to Wally's original idea, here's a hypothetical question. Since there appears to be a demand for reliable low cost trains, was it a mistake for Lionel to shut down the Mount Clemens facility? To elaborate, if they still posessed the old tooling and manufacturing machines, would they now in 2011 be focusing more on producing basic "scout" type equipment as Lionel did in the 60's instead of focusing on expensive stock which produces fewer sales? Also, I'm sure many of us are familiar with the comment cards that MTH places, or did place, in their stock. Several years ago when I was employed and could afford $30 for a new car once in awhile, I used to fill them out and send them in. I often pleaded for lower priced products in the Tinplate line and even suggested that a plastic 400E would be a good idea. I'm just curious what others may have suggested over the years and wether or not Lionel, MTH or anyone else ever seemed to listen? Becky
I guess it depends on what people consider "low cost trains". LOL...I sound like Bill Clinton and "that depends on what "is" is. Are we talking about complete sets that include track and transformer, or the traditional line that has just the loco and cars, or the O-scale locos that are stripped down? I doubt very much Lionel or MTH could stay afloat producing just "scout" level trains. Lonel has people at all ends of the price spectrum that they have to cater to. Just scout products would eliminate customers who buy O-Scale and even traditional products. That would lose Lionel some big money.There are quite a few people who have gone to command control, and Lionel can't afford to ignore them after making the big push to buy that stuff.
I've never seen the product cards you are talking about. But I know I wouldn't have asked for lower priced products. I would have asked for more items in the railroad names I like best. The simple fact is 3-rail railroading is not really aimed at cost-concious buyers any more. The only way you can buy 3-rail on a budget is to buy postwar stuff and to do that VERY carefully. And some of that stuff will still be very pricey. Even the new, stripped-down stuff Lionel is marketing in the O-scale or traditional lines are not exactly inexpensive. Again...it all depends on what you consider "low cost trains".
Well here I sit in my car on a laptop waiting for the VA Clinic to open. I read every thread on this topic. I am glad Bob Keller kept the topic from going into a war! I had enough of war when I wore my uniform.
These are good reasons that I now buy basic Marx and run Marx, even though I have many Flyer sets, some K-Line and Lionel. Quality is in the these old pieces and I enjoy the hobby. I remember back in the 50's when my dad said Marx is junk, at the time I agreed as we went into Flyer pretty deep. He even sold Flyer at his Pure Oil gasoline station in Charleston WV! However it was not junk, it was just lesser in cost. These products are as good today as they were 50 to 70 years ago!
I have enough to keep my running trains the rest of my life. Since I am age 70, that is a safe statement.
I had American Flyer for my own train set when I was a kid. My grandfather bought a Marx 3-car set and mounted a figure 8 track on a plywood sheet for when the grandkids visited him. When I was a kid I didn't think of Marx as being "junk" Heck, ANY toy train was cool to me. I wasn't real crazy about the third rail track, because I knew it wasn't like real trains. But I was able to get past that. But I did know Lionel was the top of the line and there was no way I would ever see Lionel in my house. Back then parents actually prioritized stuff, and a high end toy train set for me was NOT on the list. LOL...I wasn't able to get Lionel until I was an adult, and even now I can't afford some of the postwar locos like the 773. I'm age 61 (62 in August) and I only occasionally buy train stuff now. Lately "spare cash" has been pretty scarce and I am back to the situation my parents were in...prioritizing food and bills over trains. Guess you could say I have come full circle.
It's interesting to speculate on the real market. I enjoyed reading some threads about funnels and hobbyist versus mass-market or casual buyer. I imagine the low-end demand is met largely by the great variety of relatively low-priced used items (not collectible) are 'out there'.I'm curious - what do you suppose was done with the tooling at Mt. Clemens? I imagine some was sold, and some moved to Mexico. Maybe eventually making its way to China.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
I heard a lot of it was sold to parts dealers during the factory auction. At least that's what Tom from Warren's trains told me shortly after he attended that auction.
Lionel and Atlas O High-End products are limited production items compared with all other types of scale models.
The only way for LIONEL and ATLAS O to cut back any more on the production of High-End products is to get everyone order-early and pre-pay for what they want, then have it delivered directly to their address.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
I heard a lot of it was sold to parts dealers during the factory auction.
I attended the Great Garage Sale at the Lionel facility. They had all their parts layed out in a separate building from where the surplus product was auctioned off. During the auction I did not see many tooling pieces auctioned off, more paint masks than production tooling. The parts were being sold by the pound, no matter what you put into the bags. I mainly focused on all the unpainted locomotive shells that were available. I can't remember what the price per pound was, maybe $2.00, but it was cheap.
The deals during the auction were fantastic, I was surprised how small the attending crowd was. The real problem for us small buyers was that most of the rolling stock and accessories were sold in lots from a quanities of a dozen pieces to full pallets. The large dealers that attended had a field day. I did manage to fill up my van and was thinking of renting a u-haul trailer for the second day but common sense prevailed. It was a fun filled weekend but kind of sad watching Lionel divest themselves of their USA manufacturing facility.
If I had to work for minimum wage, I wouldn't even be looking at this forum, let alone buying toy trains.
Jeff
There's a G gauge line built here in the USA, Hartland Locomotive Works.
http://www.h-l-w.com/
As far as prices go they're not too far off from Bachman G gauge articles, and those are imports.
Of course, since we're O and S gauge fans this doesn't do us much good, but it's an illustration it can be done here.
I'd like to see a list of manufacturers who currently produce model and toy trains in the US and Canada from Z to G scale. It appears to be quite a few including the small guys who continue to make quality custom car kits in most scales as well.
Can anyone tell those of us who do not know where Menards train products are made? They have introduced an entire line of neat O gauge cars, structures, even traditional tubular tinplate track which carry a Nice Price, translated: Affordable!
Spanky, that's great! I LOVE it!
Trinity,
Lionel makes limited quantaties of rolling stock in the US from Weaver tooling that was already in the US. All other O Gauge trains are imported from China (and I think a few MTH engines may still be made in South Korea).
Bob Keller
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