For enquiring minds, here's how the diode trick that Bruce advised works: The root-mean-square (RMS) voltage is what counts for powering things like incandescent lamps; so it's the standard way of describing AC voltages. The RMS voltage is the square-root of the average of the square of the voltage waveform, which in the usual case is a sinewave. The square of a sinewave looks like a series of positive pulses coming at twice the frequency of the original sinewave, that is, 120 instead of 60 hertz. When you put a diode in series with the lamp, the lamp sees only every other one of these pulses; so the average of the pulsed waveform is cut in half. Since the square-root of one half is about .7, the diode reduces the RMS voltage by about 30 percent. So 20 volts becomes 14 volts.
Bob Nelson
I cleaned off the contacts about 3 times and finally decided there was something wrong with the contacts. I grabed the post that moves the poings and moved it to one side. The sliding contact springs came up off the fixed contacts. It was clear that the spring pressure was insufficient. I took a paring knife and slid it under the springs near the center and lifted the spring up and bend the end down. This increased the spring pressure and now the switch is working very well. Just one more thing to check if you are restoring some 022 or 711 switches. I used a ScotchBrite pad to gently clean the contacts.
Bruce Baker
Ok, I've been (finally) getting around to pulling balky switches out of my layout to see what's up.
Before pulling the layout apart, I followed Bob Nelson's advice and made sure I had 'good' (14 AWG) power and common using 16V from a Lionel 1033 going to each switch.
The first two that were still not switching crisply seemed to only need all sliding surfaces cleaned and lubed with Labeles grease (an 022 and a 711). My next switch with sluggish switching (a 711) did not improve sufficiently with the same lubrication. All wires seem to be intact and original. I don't have a meter to check conductivity. I did try applying 20V, which produced crisp switching.
I'm not anxious to up all my switch power to 20V. What should I do?
runtime
OK, I bought a meter at Lowes.
Track voltage is 20V, as my transformer claims.
Switch voltage from my dedicated 1033 Transformer is about 14.3V - not the advertised 16V.
I am using a $35 digital multi meter from Lowes, which, to my dismay, does not do RMS but rather averages something or other. The packaging did not reveal that difference vs the $57. version from the same company. Maybe it doesn't matter?
Anyway, I am trying to trouble-shoot the sluggish action on one of my two 711 turnouts - the other one has good action. As stated, I have lubed with grease all sliding contact points that do not need to make electrical contact. All wire attachments are soldered. I don't know if 711's originally had all wire connections soldered, but my dad had purchased these and had them working in my childhood layout for many years. He was pretty good with electerical stuff, in circa 50's mode, but he may have used higher voltages.
Bottom line question is: how do I determine why this switch is still sluggish @ 14V. Is is electrical, if so, how do I trace the problem with my newly purchased meter, or could it still be mechanical friction - perhaps in the solenoid? (I reread all the earlier parts of this thread, but some does not seem to apply to a 711, and some just is not clear enough to me to act upon).
Thanks for any help, (and anxious to get my layout back together soon),
As long as you're measuring sine-wave voltages, such as the 1033 puts out, your meter should be okay. (It measures the average of the absolute value of the instantaneous voltage, which is proportional to RMS voltage.)
Two suggestions: See whether the turnout is sluggish in both directions, or just one. The latter would suggest something wrong with one solenoid coil.
Try throwing the turnout by moving the slug inside the solenoid by hand, to compare the force needed for the bad turnout compared with the good one. That could indicate whether the problem is mechanical or electrical.
I don't think 14 volts is high enough to get good operation. I run mine at 20 volts from the fixed voltage tap on a KW. After 1.5 years of operation, I don' t see any contact erosion, and the way I wire the switches, some of the switches operate many times as the train makes a complete pass around the layout. I have restored 86 022 switches and have not seen any contact erosion on any of them.
Also, check the contact pressure of the sliding contacts.
This is such an awesome thread, it needs to be "bumped" BTT every once in a while...
OK, so I'm once again in 022 purchase and repair mode, this time for our club's new PW layout (I mean, as new as PW can be, I guess.) I just noticed that you can now get the 1443/53 type bulb in a LED style. Has anyone tried using one of these LED bulbs in an 022? If it physically fits under the rotating hood without any clearance issues, it would solve the "bulb getting too hot and having to wire in a diode to keep the bulb from melting the hood" problem...wouldn't it? Thoughts?
You can also solve the issue of the bulb getting hot by using 24 volt bulbs, though they'll obviously consume more power than the LED.
servoguy I don't think 14 volts is high enough to get good operation. I run mine at 20 volts from the fixed voltage tap on a KW. After 1.5 years of operation, I don' t see any contact erosion, and the way I wire the switches, some of the switches operate many times as the train makes a complete pass around the layout. I have restored 86 022 switches and have not seen any contact erosion on any of them. Bruce Baker
John, it's not as simple as just using a higher voltage rating. You need to consider the current rating too. The counterexample that I see over and over is a recommendation to replace a 53 by a 1445, on the strength of the 1445's being rated at 18 volts, compared to the 53's 14.4 volts. Nevertheless, the 1445 draws more current than the 53 when run at the same voltage, no matter what that voltage is, and consequently is hotter.
The 1445 is also rated at 14.4 volts and 135 milliamperes, compared to the 120 milliamperes of the 53. The ratio of the currents does not change with voltage; so the 1445 will draw 12.5 percent more at any voltage, compared to the 53 at the same voltage, and therefore consume 12.5 percent more power.
(Taranwanderer, did you mean 1445 rather than 1443?)
Yes, I meant 1445. It was late, I think....
Now, another question for Bruce--if you're planning on using the CV plug to deliver a robust 14-18 volts (even 20) to the solenoid for better operation, would it make sense to just unsolder the lantern's supply wire from the solder lug on the base of the CV pin and resolder it onto the solder lug on the base of the spring clip so that the lantern gets track voltage (which is presumably lower) but the solenoid still gets the higher voltage? That seems simpler than doing the diode solution, yes?
Bruce, I put a spot of glue on the contacts if they're swiveling around too freely, holds them in the correct alignment.
Taranwanderer Yes, I meant 1445. It was late, I think.... Now, another question for Bruce--if you're planning on using the CV plug to deliver a robust 14-18 volts (even 20) to the solenoid for better operation, would it make sense to just unsolder the lantern's supply wire from the solder lug on the base of the CV pin and resolder it onto the solder lug on the base of the spring clip so that the lantern gets track voltage (which is presumably lower) but the solenoid still gets the higher voltage? That seems simpler than doing the diode solution, yes?
My motivation for using the diodes in series with the lamps is simplicity and cost. The lamps were already in the switches, and the diodes cost about 20 cents at Skycraft in Winter Park, Florida. There is a discussion of bulb life in this thread, and essentially, the bulb life goes to infinity with the diode. The lamps run cool enough that you can touch them when they are on. Also, I think the lanterns look much more realistic with the bulbs at a lower light level.
runtime, check the switch for mechanical operation by turning the lantern with the power off. Compare how it feels to another switch that is working OK. If the switch feels at all rough or the friction seems high, you have a mechanical problem. I assume you have soldered all the connections and cleaned everything. This kind of problem is going to be difficult to diagnose with a meter.
You can just use a 24 volt bulb to accomplish the same thing as the diode, and no modification to the switch. Either will work.
Here are several higher-voltage lamps, compared to the 1445 in terms of the current they draw or power they consume at the same voltage
1450, 24 volts, .20
265, 28 volts, .42
356, 28 volts, .89
Think good thoughts, do good deeds!
traindood...when I power up a weird buzzing noise appears to be coming from the 6 wheel trucks...
The culprit is the transformer, not the cars.
Rob
traindood Now here is the crazy part. The lower the voltage I apply, the worse the buzzing. The higher the voltage, 'till max at 17.5 volts, noise is almost gone. If I run in command, no problemo, but in conventional really annoying. Any ideas to solve this? All the cars have the same symtoms. Thanks.
Hello: re; madison cars. When i remove the lites (14v) no noise. Lionel tech says not supposed to be. They are going to send me new lite bulbs,see what happens. Thanks for quick reply. Circuit board has three thing on it, a capacitor, a diode and a voltage regulater. later.
Bob,
I am missing something here. You say that the #53 will run cooler; but the listed hours are less than the 1445. I thought that running cooler increases the life.
When I said that it "runs cooler", I wasn't using very precise language. I could have meant that the filament had a lower temperature, which is part of what might make the lamp last longer. Instead, what I was concerned with was how much heat the lamp put out, which is a different thing. For example, the flame of a match has a much higher temperature than a hot-water radiator; but radiators can heat your house far better because they deliver much more heat than the match. (And they don't burn out nearly as quickly as the match!)
Almost all of the electrical energy put into an incandescent lamp is turned into heat. The fraction that emerges as light is usually absorbed by the surroundings--and there are a lot of surroundings inside a turnout lantern--and turned back into heat too. Even the red and green filters absorb most of the white light that hits them. Only the tiniest fraction emerges from the lantern; so it is easy to calculate the (almost) total heat from the lamp simply by calculating the electrical power going into it. It is that heat that causes the problem of melting the plastic lantern. So that's the sense in which I said that the 53 runs cooler than the 1445.
The temperature of the filament is another matter. It, along with the dimensions of the filament, determines how long, on the average, the filament will last. That's not easy to calculate. But fortunately the result that we're interested in, the lifetime, is often specified directly.
Has anyone had any luck using the white LED bulbs that are direct replacements for the 1445/53? They're available on eBay for roughly a buck apiece. My only concern is that they look a little "taller" than their replacements, so does the hood fit on properly? Anyone tried this? TIA.
All of those are DC bulbs, so you'd need to provide a diode in the switches to use them.
Are you sure about that? They do advertise them as "for model trains" and such, and I know that doesn't mean anything--but wouldn't all the necessary circuitry already be in the bulb's base to allow it to run directly on the track (AC) power? Isn't that why they're taller in the first place? I'm tempted to buy a pack on the Bay and try one out just to see what happens.
They run on AC. I've bought them and I use them.
Town & Country Hobbies has them(the LED direct replacements) with the original globe shape.
The ones that I searched on for 99 cents all said 12V DC.
The ones that are mentioned in the next message are only $2, and they appear to be AC/DC.
gunrunnerjohnThe ones that I searched on for 99 cents all said 12V DC. The ones that are mentioned in the next message are only $2, and they appear to be AC/DC.
Fix your search argument... you will get better results.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month