I'm trying to get a loop of track set up and running using a CW80, a TPC 400, and Legacy conrtol system. I've checked my connections twice against the Lionel instructions and also an independant reference on a web site. Everything appears to be correct.
When I set the TPC 400 in conventional mode, everything seems to be OK on an empty track. The track voltage varies from about 2 volts to about 14 volts, as measured using a digital multi meter, when adjusted using the speed knob on the Cab2.
Strange things happen when I start placing equipment on the track.
An 0-4-0 steamer with an E-unit usually creeps or just buzzes. Yet, I've has short periods of time that this locomotive will operate as it should, with the speed knob and direction button on the Cab2 controller.
A Polar Express Brekshire usually starts, runs, and changes directions - but the whistle is sounding contiously.
Setting the number of speed steps to 80 and setting the stall voltage to about 2 volts stops the whistle from blowing contineously, but the reversing unit on the Berkshire does not operate.
The track voltage jumps from about 2 volts to 14 volts when I remove the buzzing/creeping 0-4-0 from the track. This suggests a short.
I doubt that there is, as this locomotive operated normally with just the CW80, as does the Polar Express Berkshire.
Other observations:
The Polar Express whistle tender when placed all alone on the track operates correctly with the whistle control on the Cab2. The Polar Express coach with announcements operates correctly when all alone on the track with the bell control on the Cab2.
My Texas Special with Legacy and K-Line Empire State Express Hudson with TMCC operates as they should with the Cab2, though they are running on a seperate loop using a 180 watt brick. I've not tried running them with the TPC 400 in command mode - I want to get the bugs out of the TPC 400 in conventional mode before I try this.
The lights in a string of Polar Express passenger cars will light, get brighter, suddenly dim, then gradually come to full brightness as the track power is turned up using the knob on the Cab2.
Has anybody else seen symptoms like these?
Any suggestions?
I'll mention that I have not sent my Legacy unit into Lionel for the current upgrade yet.
Wire your 180 brick to the tpc400 and see what happens
TPC is wired to the Y cable? TPC programed as Track 1? Set for conventional? I ran several conventionals yesterday on my outer loop with TPC. Takes several turns of the knob to get voltage going unitl I set "stall" voltage. I am running my TPC with Legacy and also have old Command Base running too. Continous whistle blowing sounds like a reversed wire. Maybe somone will drop in and see what gives. As suggested, maybe the CW80. They have given trouble in the past. Good luck.
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If you really want to try to drive the TPC 400 with an 80 watt supply and the 80 watt supply is a CW80, set up the CW80 so that it's puting full power out on the AUX port and then wire from this to the TPC. Make sure you observe the polarity and do not try to use the track terminals on the CW80. CW 80's output is very odd until it reaches full power and the TPC itself modifies the sine wave to do some of it's tricks. If you feed it modified power it may react oddly. I'd just get another PH brick and use the CW for aux power for accessories or lights.
chuck If you really want to try to drive the TPC 400 with an 80 watt supply and the 80 watt supply is a CW80, set up the CW80 so that it's puting full power out on the AUX port and then wire from this to the TPC. Make sure you observe the polarity and do not try to use the track terminals on the CW80. CW 80's output is very odd until it reaches full power and the TPC itself modifies the sine wave to do some of it's tricks. If you feed it modified power it may react oddly. I'd just get another PH brick and use the CW for aux power for accessories or lights.
I'm glad Chuck saw this post and his explanation is very close to the same explanation I received from Roy several years ago when I was enlarging the layout. I use two bricks with my TPC 300 and it works perfect. I use, instead of a CW, a Z-1000 for my accessories and light.
Bricks work with TPCs. Why use a variable CW80 when the power can be varied through the command system?
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This is a uTube video someone did of the output from a CW-80. Note the waveform changes and that the output isn't a full sine wave even at full power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEAy_B5bVX8
Chuck...I've heard people discuss the lack of a pure sine wave and now it is crystal clear. How does that CW-80 run anything that is electronically sophisticated?
It runs everything but some early QSI material and MTH's stuff. The former is by accident, the latter by design. BTW, HO/N have been doing this for years to get equipment to perform better at lower speeds.
Thanks for the ideas.
I've tried several things. The short story is that the CW80 does not play well with the TPC.
Powering the TPC with the aux. terminals on the CW80 was better, but still had problems.
All of the problems went away when the TPC was powered with the brick.
Just for grins, I hooked up an old 1033 set to put out 16 volts to the TPC - no problems.
I'm guessing that the TPC also controls voltage with a chopped sine wave, and gets confused when the incoming power is something other than a sine wave. It would take an oscilascope to confirm this.
BUMP
Just found this thread and it sounds like I have been having the exact same problems, but I was powering my TPC with a Z1000. Is that a problematic transformer as well?
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Jim - I ended up borrowing a Fluke meter from work that could plot the waveform of the power. Sure enough, the CW80 had something that looked kind of like a saw tooth, while the 1033 and powehouse had pure sine waves. Now that I think about it, I do not remember looking at the wave form out of the TPC. If you can find one of these meters to borrow, it would be informative.
The really weird thing about this adventure, was that the CW80/TPC combination would work OK from time to time.
Lionelsony described the CW80 as being a phase shift(?) type power supply, that will not put out a sine wave. Anybody know how a Z1000 controls the voltage?
It's my understanding that the Z-1000 brick puts out a pure sine wave, although I do have one PS-1 that doesn't like it but my other PS-1 & 2 run fine with it.
Jim, Did you do a reset of your TPC and is the Z brick wired directly to the TPC or thru the Z controller?
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The technique is called phase control, not phase shift. It's the same trick that is used (at much higher voltage) by household light dimmers. The output is kept off for the first part of each half-cycle of the waveform, then switched on abruptly, usually by a triac, which is a kind of electronic switch. It remains on until the end of the half-cycle and then shuts off again to repeat the process for the next half-cycle. It is sometimes incorrectlly referred to as "chopping", which is actually something else.
The CW80 creates the DC component needed for the whistle and bell functions by differentially varying the turn-on times, making one slightly early and the one for the opposite-polarity half-cycle slightly late.
Apart from the difficulties of using this waveform with other equipment that may be designed to expect an unaltered sinewave, the technique makes it difficult to measure accurately the voltage put out with an ordinary AC voltmeter, which will be about 4 volts off in the middle of the scale. (I have posted a correction table several times.) A more-expensive true-RMS voltmeter will read correctly.
Bob Nelson
Thanks Bob, for setting me straight again. As I've said before, I'm a mechanical engineer that knows enough about electronics to be dangerous.
Doug - I have the Z-controller in line between the brick and the TPC. I did do a reset and it behaved very slightly better. I could get it to switch from neutral to forward then back to neutral a few times, but mostly it just clicks when I hit direction? I've tested the engine on a conventional transformer (cw80) without the tpc/tmcc stuff and it worked fine.
Jim, Try it without the controller between the brick & the TPC.
I agree with Doug. Try it without the controller.
Okay - I'll try and find a connector so I can wire to the tpc directly.
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