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THE First TMCC?

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Posted by palallin on Monday, December 3, 2007 11:43 AM
 chuck wrote:

I'm trying to find the original patent for the crane control system but I don't have enough information for the Patent Office search engine.   Neither the trade name Omni-Lectronic or the assignee's company, Trenton Marine Service pull up any hits.

 

I rather like John Grams' theory on the legal issue:  the demise of the set appears to him to have more to do with Korean War materiel shortages than lawsuits.  Apparently, the patent might not have been enforceable in the toy train environment.

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Posted by Yog-Sothoth on Monday, December 3, 2007 12:52 PM
Chuck, how about the current TMCC patents?  They might reference the old patents in the "Cited References" section.
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Posted by chuck on Monday, December 3, 2007 1:43 PM

 Yog-Sothoth wrote:
Chuck, how about the current TMCC patents?  They might reference the old patents in the "Cited References" section.

There isn't be anything in the TMCC patent application regarding this system.  The TMCC patent documents do cite the QSI "semaphore" system and describes differences in DCC and itself.  The primary element of the TMCC patent is in regard to the use of the track as a radio antenna to carry command signals around a layout.

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Posted by SPFan on Monday, December 3, 2007 2:21 PM

Speculating on how this system works is interesting but I suspect someone could look at the controller signal with an oscilloscope and figure it out in a few minutes. Given that Ben indicated the circuitry is pretty simple I would guess its just a RF carrier that is modulated with ten different frequencies. The cars are tuned for their particular frequency.

Maybe we should start a pool?Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

 

Pete 

 

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Posted by chuck on Monday, December 3, 2007 4:55 PM
The 1991 article indicates that the buttons are in two banks of five.  You can tune/mistune any of the buttons within a given bank but can you can not cross from one bank to the other.  The buttons are clustered so that 1,2,3,6 and 7 form one bank and 4,5,8,9, and 10 form the other.    Buttons 2 and 7 (spares for bank 1) can be tuned to replace button 1 (engine reverse).  Buttons 9 and 10 (the "spares" in bank 2) can't replace button 1 because that reciever can't be tuned to those frequencies.
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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, December 3, 2007 6:17 PM

There is no carrier.  The transmitter simply generates one of ten LF-MF baseband frequencies between 352.2 kilohertz (1) and 228.3 kilohertz (10).

The frequencies are in two groups of five, but the groups are 1-5 and 6-10.  The frequencies in each group are interleaved with those of the other.  I suspect that there are 5 taps on the inductor of the oscillator's tank circuit, with each tap selected by one button from the low group and one button from the high group.  I think there is probably a capacitor that is added to the tank when a high-group button is pressed, to offset all the low-group frequencies down slightly.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by magicman710 on Monday, December 3, 2007 8:18 PM
Hmm this is quite interesting...... Chuck and Bob arguing about a 50 year old system and whether is was digital or not.... Wink [;)]

"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen

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Posted by chuck on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 6:15 AM

This isn't arguing.  I respect Bob and agree with many of his points and at a pure semantic level the old system isn't realy analog.  To me it isn't really digital either.  I can see some clever real estate agent touting a feature of a house for sale as having digital lighting control.  After all, very one of the fixture switches is either off or on (none of those pesky easy to break analog dimmers).Smile [:)]

My main issue is in comparing the 1947 electronic set with anything we are using today.  The closest thing I can thing of is the Dallee/Atlas LocoMatic button box from a few years ago. And even in that case the only real simlarity is that we have a box with buttons on it.Smile [:)]

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 6:21 PM
Nothing wrong with a good argument, as long as it doesn't become a quarrel...;-)

Bob Nelson

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Posted by magicman710 on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 6:31 PM

Perhaps arguing was to strong a word.... Wink [;)] How about bickering instead?

 

You two go back to your bickering! Wink [;)] Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]

"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen

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Posted by magicman710 on Monday, December 24, 2007 10:42 PM
I just checked my book I got for Christmas, the Lionel Standard Catalog of Trains 1945-69. Well, something really suprised me in it. The ECU Set in the 1950 Catalog was $80... The one in the 1949 catalog is $200!!!!! How was there such a price drop in one year?

"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen

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Posted by 1688torpedo on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 12:10 AM

Hello Grayson!

The First Electronic Sets came with a VW 150 watt Transformer, 151 Semaphore, A Pair of Switch Tracks & Plenty of Track to build your own railroad. Lionel must have dropped some set components such as the Transformer & Semaphore in order to reduce the price & make a sale. This would be my guess. They were probably interested in selling off excess stock. The Electronic set was never a big seller for Lionel anyway as they cost more than most folks could afford anyway & the fact it was complicated to maintain & operate did not help matters anyhow so this is probably what happened. Take Care.

Keith Woodworth........Seat Belts save lives,Please drive safely.

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