Quoting Dave Klepper: "Since you corrected me on the sleeper configuration, perhaps you can fill in a gap in my memory. I think the buffet sleeper cars used on both the State of Maine and the Montrealer were in the Beach series of names. Can you confirm or correct this and give the configuration? Each car had a lounge and rooms, but I don't remember any roomettes. Did the New Haven have any Postwar cars with sections? I rode the Doller Saver Sleeper several times, but it was always a heavyweight 12 and 1. 1960."
The New Haven's Beach Series cars (delivered in 1954 & 1955) were 6 section, 6 roomette, 4 double bedrooms.
There were four 6 double bedroom cafe lounge cars delivered in January of 1955. Bay State and Keystone State were assigned to the Federal, and Nutmeg State and Pine Tree State were assigned to Washington-Montreal service. Two of these may have been mov ed to the State of Maine.
Johnny
When I retired from Amtrak's Boston Dispatchers Office about six years ago, Amtrak's Vermonter (in both directions) was still often referred to as "The Bootlegger," or simply "The Boot." I wonder how many of the younger folks have any idea what that term referred to.
Since you corrected me on the sleeper configuration, perhaps you can fill in a gap in my memory. I think the buffet sleeper cars used on both the State of Maine and the Montrealer were in the Beach series of names. Can you confirm or correct this and give the configuration? Each car had a lounge and rooms, but I don't remember any roomettes. Did the New Haven have any Postwar cars with sections? I rode the Doller Saver Sleeper several times, but it was always a heavyweight 12 and 1. 1960.
daveklepper The two Pullman fluted side 10 rommette and six double-bed-room Boston and Maine sleeper normally assigned to this service were the "Dartmouth College I" and the "Dartmouth College II". They were identaclel to the New Haven's postwar 10 and 6's, but with an all stainless side treatment, no paint except black lettering and numbers.
The two Pullman fluted side 10 rommette and six double-bed-room Boston and Maine sleeper normally assigned to this service were the "Dartmouth College I" and the "Dartmouth College II". They were identaclel to the New Haven's postwar 10 and 6's, but with an all stainless side treatment, no paint except black lettering and numbers.
Good to have recollections of these overnight interline trains, which were discontinued in September 1966. Sadly, I never rode them --- only the latter-day Amtrak version
Also found on the web. By this time Dad (1914-1978) was on the Amtrak board.
1976 letter to Railroad Magazine - Old Days On the CV
I was delighted to read about the Central Vermont's three Pacifics in the June Information Booth because I grew up with the CV and my father fired and ran its 230's. I was actually standing among the people lined along the old cast-iron fence on Feb. 4, 1928, when the 232 posed for the photo you published. I was then 13 years old. It was a happy day for St. Albans, Vt., because this was the first train to run on the Northern Division after three months of reconstruction from the big flood of 1927. Among the dignitaries in the three-car train was Sir Henry Thornton, president of the Canadian National.
The flood damage had sent the CV into receivership. Prior to that CN had owned two-thirds of its stock, but the Central Vermont had been run pretty much by itself under the aegis of E.C. Smith, grandson of the founder. CV engines were painted in their own livery, which had no resemblance to the Canadian National's. They bore the name Central Vermont on the side of the cab, with the engine number in larger figures on the sides and rear of the tender and in small digits on the sand dome, all lettering and numerals being white. The engines were painted a solid black, except for light gray smokeboxes and the white-rimmed wheels.
But to the dismay of onlookers, including myself, the 232 came down from the enginehouse and under the trainshed painted - for the first time for any CV engine - in Canadian National livery. There were a gilded number on the side of the cab, a removable small number plate in white paint on the rear of the tender, no number at all on the sand dome, and the name Central Vermont in gilt enclosed in a titled rectangle on the tender. Engine and tender were now CN dark green and not black.
Obviously, CN had taken over at last. Our own railroad had fallen beneath the November rains, but was rescued by the 5000 workers whom CN had put on the job for three months. And now CN was showing us, by imposing its own livery, who was the boss. On July 29, 1929, when Central Vermont Railway property was sold at public auction, the Canadian National acquired 100 percent of the stock as the only successful bidder. The line became the Central Vermont Railway, Inc. and the Smith family was out.
So the photo you published brought back memories - those I have just related and those of my own CV job. I began working in St. Albans at age 12 as a messenger boy in the telegraph and dispatchers' office (shown in the photograph just behind the 232's smokebox). I continued working for CV through my high school years, also putting in a summer vacation from college on an extra gang, laying rail in the Green Mountains. That ended my rail career until I was appointed two years ago to the Amtrak board of directors.
There were actually four 230's, numbered 230-233 inclusive. But in the early 1920s or perhaps earlier, the 233 was in bad shape, needing a heavy overhaul. The Canadian National had a small 2-6-0, fresh from the shops, for which the CV decided to swap the 233 rather than spend the money on overhauling the Pacific. The new acquisition, the 2-6-0, was numbered 397. It was not a good swap
The CV leased five Pacifics from Canadian National and numbered them 234 through 238. They were slightly heavier than the 230-232, but the 238 was the original CV 233 back on her home rails until the arrival in 1927 of the 600-603, all 4-6-2's, enabled the company to send back the engines.
These details are vivid to me because in 1924 I used to take my father's dinner pail down to him at 6:10 a.m. when The Montrealer stopped in St. Albans. He was fireman on the train, which five leased engines handled regularly. Many a ride I had on the 230's from the enginehouse to the station as a reward for toting his dinner pail, as well as a cab ride with him from Montreal to St. Albans.
In 1945, an uncle let me run the 231 on the late night local passenger train, No. 304, from Bethel to White River Jct. Many years later, when my small sons and I were visiting St. Albans, I was permitted to run the Canadian National 6218 from the ash pit to the switch, 500 feet. The boys were amazed that I could possibly know how to run that big 4-8-4. Well, I had learned on the 230's when I was their age.
Joseph V. MacDonald
I found this article on the web the other day. -- Mike MacDonald
MACDONALD'S EFFORTS PAY OFF!By Betty Sproston One man sparked the restoration of passenger service in Vermont and worked relentlessly for it for more than a year.On July 7, l97l, Joseph V. MacDonald read a newspaper story on his way to work at the Continental Can Co. in New York City about Amtrak's decision to resume passenger service between Boston and New York via New Haven, Conn., Springfield and Worcester, Mass.MacDonald is a native Vermonter, born in St. Albans. He completed high school and then was graduated from the University of Notre Dame, South Bend, Ind., in 1936.His father and two of his uncles were locomotive engineers on the Central Vermont Railway running between Montreal and White River Junction. During his schools years, MacDonald worked as a messenger in the telegraph office of the CV and was a timekeeper during vacations."These are my sole connections with railroading, but the interest generated back there stayed with me," declared MacDonald, who is corporate buyer of capital equipment at the head office of Continental Can.He travels thousands of miles a year by rail. He does not fly. So far this year, his business travel by rail totals about 40,000 miles. As a result, he believes, during some 3l years of business travel by rail he has gained an awareness of what is happening among railroads that is shared by few business people. He was perhaps the only person reading that New York Times story who knew key facts and would be in a position to put forth a proposal to Amtrak."My efforts have been as a private citizen and as a public service. I have no other interest in the matter, financial or otherwise," declared MacDonald.
He realized the new Inland Route train would cross the Central Vermont tracks at Palmer, Mass., 14 miles east of Springfield. If Montreal cars could be coupled to the rear of the New York-Boston train via Springfield and Worcester, and uncoupled at Palmer, the CV could haul them from Palmer to White River Junction, and on to Montreal.This would mean a restoration of the Montrealer-Washingtonian service, abandoned in 1966. "As a native Vermonter, I felt I had no choice but to look into the matter, to see whether a viable service could be proposed." he said.Thus MacDonald dug up figures on operating costs, on historical patronage - innumerable legal and financial facts. On July 26. 1971, he completed a 29-page business proposal entitled, "A Proposal for Through Rail Passenger Service New York-Montreal, via the Penn Central, Central Vermont and Canadian National, via Palmer, Mass." He submitted it to Amtrak, to railroads, to state and federal officials, to leading newspapers in the East.The proposal demonstrated that with patronage of 100 each way daily the service would more than break even. From then on, MacDonald said there wasn't a free evening or weekend for him. His correspondence used up 20 boxes of typing paper. In the meantime, he continued his considerable responsibilities for Continental Can, and traveled on trains across the country.MacDonald said the first significant reaction to his proposal came in a story Aug. 10, 1971, in the Burlington Free Press, followed by an editorial Sept. 4, calling on Vermonters and their governmental representatives to support the proposal. Amtrak invited MacDonald to discuss the proposal with James W. McClellan, then its manager of marketing development. He spent four hours with McClellan, updating him on the New England situation."But even more significant than the visit to Amtrak was the story The Burlington Free Press put on the AP wire that day, telling of the visit. It caught the eye of a group of transportation chairmen of Chambers of Commerce in New Haven, Meriden, Hartford, Springfield and Worcester who were meeting in Hartford," said MacDonald. Next day, they called MacDonald to join forces.
The first run of the Montrealer was in 1924, so that timetable has to be earlier than that.
The New Englander's train numbers 21 and 20 were given to the Montrealer and Washingtonian.
Mike
These links are to a picture of the Ambassador in 1936 and a timetable, date unknown. If it had been a Penn Station through train it would have to have left Washington very early in the morning and arrived after midnight.
http://imagescn.techno-science.ca/structures/index_choice.cfm?id=36&photoid=1775812032
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/1606/mtrbm.jpg
Thanks for the history! In the days when Dartmouth College I and Dartmouth College II were operating, most equipment was New Haven, some Pennsy, an some CV. The New Haven coaches were usually the remodelled 8200's, the prewar "American Flyers", that had interiors like the postwar 8600's, including reclining seats and the smoking facing-the-aisle section at one end. Any PRR coaches were usually modernized P-70's with air conditioning and reclining seats, sometimes picture windows, sometimes single small windows. Sleepers both PRR and NYNH&H were six and tens, as were the two B&M drop sleepers for White River Junction.
Much of this period I was working on the Hopkins Center project at Darmouth, and use of Owl sleepers to New York, where the architects Harrison and Abromovitz were located, the sleeper to White River Junction, and the two Budd cars back to Boston that were running as the Allouette (one CP and one B&M, diesel mu) was almost routine for me. The Center opened in 1962, but I would occasionally want to show up for concerts and plays. But after train service to Boston was discontinue, my auto had to suffice. My last Boston-Montreal trip was via B&M Budd car to Portland, taxi to the GT station, and their Sunday evening only Portland -Montreal passenger train. I think this was a summer-only operation, but I enjoyed all these train trips.
My grandfather was an engineer on the Montrealer in the steam era.
Here's some history on the subject, written by my father, who organized a campaign to restore passenger train service to Vermont and Montreal in the early days of Amtrak:
In 1924, Canadian National Railways had just been formed, being a merger of Grand Trunk Ry with the several Canadian transcontinental lines that got over-extended in the early 1900's. To get a president, CN looked to Pennsylvania RR. Henry Thornton, former General Mgr, Lines west, of PRR, was hired. He is the man who conceived and built Jamaica Station of the LIRR, with its 3-way cross-platform transfers of commuters. He was made Sir Henry Thornton by King George V, and he went to work to make CN a solid competitor of CPR.
One thing that bothered him was that, because of the longer mileage of the CV-B&M-NH route to New York, the CN had to offer passengers a 2-hour longer run to New York than the CPR through the latter's D&H connection.
BOth D&H and New Haven operated the Montreal trains into Grand Central, and passengers going beyond had to transfer either to PRR at Penn Station or to B&O at Jersey City.
The Hell Gate Bridge had been opened and was being used by New Haven-PRR for through Boston-Washington trains only. Sir Henry decided he could gain an advantage over CPR if he could put on a through train that would connect the capitals of Canada and the U.S., via the new Hell Gate Bridge.
And so, in 1924, the Montrealer-Washingtonian were put on. They carried through sleepers from Ottawa and Quebec, and ran down the CV to W.R. Jct., B&M to Springfield, New Haven to Penn Station, and PRR through to Washington. These trains were added to the existing service of 3 daily trains via CV to New York at that time. They operated substantially on the same schedule as the final schedule, but the entire train went all the way to Washington, and it also carried Montreal to St. Petersburgh sleepers for the many Canadians who vacationed in Florida.
Despite the 2-hour longer running time than the D&H, they were an instant success, for the very same reasons that Amtrak has seen in its current appraisals: they served a market unreached by the D&H service, both in northern Vermont vacation areas, in densely populated Southern New England, and in through service to south of New York, all without that barrier of a change of stations in New York.
During the depression, the Washingtonian-Montrealer ran in 14 cars regularly, loaded, at a time when, one day in 1933, the U.S. Dept. of Commerce made a border-to-border count of all people traveling from East to West and counted only 32 people!
Naturally, the Montrealer-Washingtonian were given real preferred handling. It was put on a man's permanent service record if he caused a delay of even one minute to Nos. 20 or 21. And a friend recently told me of the only one instance in its 42 years of operation that the train was ever side-tracked for a freight train. The engineer, who happened to be my uncle Dan, was so indignant that he posted the train order on the bulletin board for all to see, as evidence of the offending Dispatcher's incompetence.
CN started the train with completely new equipment by Pullman, and as improved equipment came along, it was put on, with the final consists comprised of the newest CN and New Haven equipment. PRR equipment was limited to baggage cars, since PRR never had anything good enough for that train, although they would occassionally slip in an extra PRR coach.
Even when the Great Flood of 1927 washed out the Northern Division of CV, CN put 5,000 men to work, and work equipment from as far away as Vancouver, and it took three full months just to get the first train over the road St. Albans to W.R. Jct., and another three months to be able to operate passenger service at all, and still another six months to be able to operate the Montrealer-Washingtonian. CN paid D&H $400 per day for an entire year for trackage rights down from Montreal into Rutland, with CV providing its own train crews and fuel, but prohibited from carrying any but through passengers -- rather than let the Montrealer-Washingtonian drop out of the picture.
Another funny story used to be told at cocktail parties when I was a student at Dartmouth in the 60's. I don't know how much of it was true and how much was "urban legend":
Dartmouth collaborated with the US Army Corps of Engineers to develop and build the Cold Regions Research and Engineering Laboratory (CRREL) in Hanover, NH. When the building was dedicated, they invited a number of dignitaries from Washington, DC to attend. Since air service into the Upper Valler was limited to commuter flights and Boston was several hours away, it was decided to have the dignitaries travel by train. The only problem was that the northbound Montrealer passed througn White River Junction at 4am and the southbound train to return to Washington passed through at 11:30pm. These were preAmtrak days when there was still some amount of infrastructure still in place at WRJ. There was a steam connection in the yard which had been used in better days for the northbound trains to leave off a sleeper so travellers could detrain at their leisure. The car was also spotted in the yard, attached to steam and power in the early evening, so travellers could board at a decent time and wake up in Washington DC the next morning.
There were a few challenges. The WRJ crew hadn't done this operation for years. Both Dartmouth and the Army Corp were a little vague about the actual day of the arrival and departure. To add to the soup, both the north and southbound trains changed power and crew at WRJ (CV to B&M). Also there was another train, the CV-operated Vermonter, which ran as a local, gathering passengers (and milk!) for smaller stations north of White River, which went north 30 minutes after the Montrealer and arrived southbound 30 minutes before the Montrealer. All this added confusion to the yard operations.
The day before the dedication the Washington dignitaries boarded the special pullman in DC. When the Dartmouth folks arrived the next morning to pick them up, the sleeper was nowhere to be found. A quick check with the stationmaster revealed that it was somewhere north of Essex Junction headed for the Canadian border. The dignitaries detrained in St. Albans and the Dartmouth folks made a dash to pick them up (this was before I-89 was built!). There were apologies all around, from Dartmouth, the B&M, the CV, the Stationmaster, etc. The dedication had to be delayed for several hours, but other than that went off as planned.
There was some confusion as to when the dignitaries would return to Washington, but the extra pullman was spotted in WRJ for several days. The arrangements were made to have it picked up by the southbound train and the dignitaries boarded after a nice dinner at the Coolidge Hotel next to the yard. They were comfortably bedded down and awoke the next morning still in White River Junction.
The southbound train was the Washingtonian and the northbound the Montrealer. Rode them both several times. And yes the bootlegger name did stick. There was competition from New York, the Montreal Limited on the NYC and D&H. And at one time on the Rutland as well, but not while I was a frequent rider.
Among the interesting services provided after some train-offs was the set-out sleeper for White River Junction. The two Pullman fluted side 10 rommette and six double-bend-room Boston and Maine sleeper normally assigned to this service were the "Dartmouth College I" and the "Dartmouth College II". They were identaclel to the New Haven's postwar 10 and 6's, but with an all stainless side treatment, no paint except black lettering and numbers.
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