Steam-hauled Streamliners

[daveklepper]

I can report on having ridden a standard (but with modern air-conditioning) Pullman sleeper from Kansas City to Jacksonville in 1959 on the Frisco's KC-Florida special.  This was a business trip, and because a had several clients sharing the expenses I was able to spring for the drawing room in the 12 Section 1 Drawing Room sleeper.   I remember lighweight coaches on the train, and at least one had a letterboard lettered for "The Meteor."   During the layover in Memphis, the Rock Island's RDC departed.  The departure gate said to Tucomarci  (spelling?) but I suspect that was via connection and the car may have only to some mainline point further east.

[Anonymous]

AA--

How bout that.  Learn something new every day.  Thx for the info.

[agentatascadero]

That's interesting re: SJD.  Got dates??  I thought they had dieselized by the time the 3/4 domes were built in the mid 1950's.

The first SP domes, completed in 1954, were assigned to the SJD, the train was dieselized in 1956.  There's a Pentrex SP video which shows extensive footage of 51/52, in steam, with the dome-lounge.  It appears 51/52 had that distinction (only regularly scheduled steam/domeliner) for about two years.  Steam was assigned between Oakland and Bakersfield until 1956.  Bakersfield-LA was dieselized earlier, about 1953, I think, but I'm certain of the 1956 date, when steam was retired system wide.   AA

[KCSfan]

Bill,

I believe you are right about the Frisco trains. I don't think the KC-FLA Special carried many, if any, streamlined cars in the days when it was steam powered. On the other hand I am fairly certain the Firefly consist was made up of modernized and streamlined (at least as to paint job) heavyweight cars though definitely not a lightweight streamliner when headed by steam.

At the risk of offending some readers there were at least three streamlined steam locomotives that IMHO were less that aestheticly pleasing successes. These were the engines that headed the Reading's Crusader and two NYC trains the Michigan Central's Mercury and the Big Four's James Whitcomb Riley. I have heard these referrred to as looking like "inverted bathtubs". To a lesser degree the same might also be said of the 4-4-2's that powered the original Hiawathas.

Mark

[Anonymous]

The Illinois Central  post WWII City of New Orleans originally had a connection of through streamlined cars that  that ran between Louisville through Paducha to Fulton, KY where they were combined into the main Chicago-New Orleans train. At the time the IC had no diesel servicing facilities on the Louisville line of the Kentucky Division so they semi streamlined a light Pacific, No, 1146, specifically for this run. To the best of my knowledge this was the only streamlined steam engine the IC ever operated. The Frisco streamlined a number of steam locomotives which reguarly powered the Firefly, the Meteor and the Kansas City-Florida Special. Photos of both the IC and the Frisco streamlined steamers can be viewed on the www.gelwood.railfan site.

Mark

 

Just being a bit technical here about the three Frisco trains mentioned. I think only the Meteor was fully streamlined so far as the train itself was concerned. The Firefly may have been  modernized, not sure. But the  KC-FLA Special was detinately not a full true streamliner with a fast schedule, though it did have quite a few streamlined cars in its consist  through the years and ended its life with a notation that all regularly scheduled cars are streamlined.  But as to being a streamliner at the time it had a streamline-styled locomotive, I think not. .  

[Anonymous]

Well, my question is about streamliners pulled by streamlined AND non-streamlined steam locos.
Wasn´t Santa Fe´s Chief also steam-powered until 1947 or so?
And I also heard that on the Rio Grande there was some regular steam action on streamlined trains....
And didn´t the Lehigh Valley also use streamlined Hudsons???

A worthwhile book covering the streamlined steam locos is "The Steamliners" by Kevin Holland. Besides the expected locos, it covers many of the oddballs and one-offs. My vote for one of the most unusual would be Lackawanna's Atlantic #988, converted from a camelback by the road's shops. The book doesn't mention any Hudsons, but LV had a group of Otto Kuhler styled Pacifics.

[Anonymous]

That's interesting re: SJD.  Got dates??  I thought they had dieselized by the time the 3/4 domes were built in the mid 1950's.

[agentatascadero]

Beyond the Hiawathas, streamliners pulled by streamlined steam are almost non-existent. The Powhatan Arrow on N&W, the Empire State Express on NYC and the interline Dixie Flagler are the only other ones that comes to mind.

Ummmmmm, there were steam powered streamliners all over the USA.  Let's see, in the west:  SP Morning, Noon, San Joaquin and Sacramento Daylights, the Lark, the Starlight,  the Overland, the 49er, the Treasure Island Special, the Golden State, the Sunbeam and the Hustler.  Santa Fe: the Chief, the San Digans, the Grand Canyon, and who knows about the Chicago-KC, Texas, Tulsa trains.  UP: City of St Louis, the steam powered SP connections.  In the midwest, many 400's and Hiawathas were steam powered.  And in the east, the list would be too long, but most, if not all, early NYC and PRR streamliners were steam powered, how about the B&O Royal Blue, and Cincinattian?  C&O used steam on a number of streamliners, as did SRR and N&W.  CAn anybody refute my assertion that the ONLY regularly scheduled steam DOMEliner was the SP San Joaquin Daylight?  AA

 

[KCSfan]

The Illinois Central  post WWII City of New Orleans originally had a connection of through streamlined cars that  that ran between Louisville through Paducha to Fulton, KY where they were combined into the main Chicago-New Orleans train. At the time the IC had no diesel servicing facilities on the Louisville line of the Kentucky Division so they semi streamlined a light Pacific, No, 1146, specifically for this run. To the best of my knowledge this was the only streamlined steam engine the IC ever operated. The Frisco streamlined a number of steam locomotives which reguarly powered the Firefly, the Meteor and the Kansas City-Florida Special. Photos of both the IC and the Frisco streamlined steamers can be viewed on the www.gelwood.railfan site.

Mark

[Anonymous]

Katy Texas Special 1948-1950 between Waco and San Antonio. Ran under steam until the E8s arrived. Within a few months after inauguration , the E7s were turned at Waco for servicing, which could not be accomplished adequately in the short turnaround.

FWD Texas Zephyr had a similar operation between Fort Worth and Dallas.

And don't forget theTNO Sunbeam and Hustler 1937-1953 Dallas-Houston, referred to by some as the "Texas Daylights".  Pulled by probably the prettiest streamlined Pacifics of the bunch (OK I'm probably biased, but the P-14s are right up there with the GSs).  Beautiful, and very fast.

[daveklepper]

In fact, the NYO&W never owned an all-steel passenger car, we called them "The great Timber Fleet" in contrast to the New Yokr Central. It was really mostly a paint job with some skirting applied to the 4-8-2's.

[Dr Leonard]

I believe that for a time the NKP used its Hudsons on streamlined passenger trains between the Chicago station and wherever the diesels took over..

Don't forget the CN and GTW streamlined 4-8-4s that hauled the Maple Leaf and other trains. Of course, the trains weren't totally streamlined but included some older heavyweight equipment.

[daveklepper]

I would not call the NYO&W "Mountenier" a "streamliner." Beyond paint there was not much modificaiton of the equipment.

[Anonymous]

The Lakawanna's streamlined "Phoebe Snow" was pulled by steam before the F3s and E8s showed up.

The New York, Ontario & Western "Mountaineer" was a streamliner made of rebuilt heavyweight cars and was pulled by steam.

Milwaukee had a connection with one of the Hiawathas somewhere in north Wisconsin that they outfitted with "streamlined" coaches and a matching teakettle so that its styling would match the Hiawatha in styling.

Reading company also ran the "Wall Street" behind steam using streamlined rebuilt Harlan and Hollingsworth coaches.

[daveklepper]

And later, for a short time, T-1's, (Broadway Limited, Spirit of St. Louis, Jeffersonian, Liberty Limited)

Also, "diesel dilemnas" occasionaly put steam on the front of normally diesel-hauled streamliners, and the one I remember is the Southerner. Looked great with a beautiful Green, Gold Paicific at the head end.

[ModelTrainman]

Broadway Limited.........semi streamlined K4

[wjstix]

CNW/Omaha "Minnesota 400" started with streamlined 4-6-2's. This train later became the "Dakota 400" when it was extended into South Dakota. The train served Rochester MN and had cars with special doors to allow unloading of bedridden passengers at the Mayo Clinic.

[passengerfan]

Absolutely correct feltonhill. That's what i get for trying to remember things at my age and not looking it up in my reference files. Maybe a little laziness too.

[feltonhill]

The Blue Goose was no. 3460

[passengerfan]

You are correct about the Chief it was steam hauled using new Hudsons from Chicago to La Junta and new Northerns between La Junta and Los Angeles.One of the Santa Fe Hudsons 2960 was streamlined and painted in a Blue and stainless steel scheme nicknamed the "Blue Goose". The Chief was a daily all Pullman train between Chicago and Los Angeles and was hauled by these steam locomotives from February 1938 to 1947 when the Chief replaced steam with A-B-A sets of Alco PA-PB-PA sets. This was probably the best looking Chief ever. Other streamlined all Pullman trains pulled by Steam were the Forty Niner of 1937, Twentieth Century Limited of 1938. The Broadway Limited of 1938 The Spirit of St. Louis of 1938. The Liberty Limited of 1938, The Treasure Island Special of 1939, The Lark of 1940, and the Arizona Limited between Tucumcari and Phoenix (SP) 1941 east of Tucumcari the train was assigned diesels on the Rock Island. It should also be mentioned the IC Pananma Limited was a diesel powered all pullman streamlined train inaugurated in 1942.

[Anonymous]

Well, my question is about streamliners pulled by streamlined AND non-streamlined steam locos.
Wasn´t Santa Fe´s Chief also steam-powered until 1947 or so?
And I also heard that on the Rio Grande there was some regular steam action on streamlined trains....
And didn´t the Lehigh Valley also use streamlined Hudsons???

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw4001

How about the NKP? I've seen shots of their streamlined cars being pulled by steam but don't know for sure how long.

Dale

NKP never had any streamlined steam. Despite its deserved reputation as a late stronghold for steam, NKP dieselized its passenger service relatively early with 11 Alco PA1's, so any steam pulling streamlined cars was probably on a special or covering a motive power failure.

[Kurn]

The B&O Cincinnatian,the best looking one of the bunch!

[cnw4001]

How about the NKP? I've seen shots of their streamlined cars being pulled by steam but don't know for sure how long.

Dale

[David_Telesha]

Right around 1947, before the PA-1's arrived, the New Haven used I-5's to haul the new Stainless-Steel Merchants Limited -- the DL-109's couldn't keep the schedule quite as well. The train famously kept its time to the very minute.

[AltonFan]

The CB&Q had a Hudson type with fluted, stainless steel shrouding for use as protection power on the Zephyrs. It was named Æolus, named for the mythical "Master of the Winds", but the railroaders called it "Alice".

[jimrice4449]

The Dakota 400 had a streamlined Pacific. Among the others:
James Whitcomb Riley Big Four (NYC)
Mercury Mich. Central (also NYC)
Tennesean Southern's only S/L Ps-4 Wa***o Lynchburg N&W J there to Bristol.
There are,for sure, many others. TLC has a new book out titled The Steamliners on this very subject.

[cnw4001]

Can't tell the year(s) but CNW had streamlined steam pullng 400's.

Dale

[PBenham]

The Lehigh Valley streamlined some Pacifics for the Asa Packer and the Black Diamond in the latter '30s. But, WWII scrambled the assignments of the Streamlined engines, so that they could be on any train at any time. The stainless steel trim was removed from them at that time, too. The streamlining remained in place until the end, but in 13-D black ,it wasn't the same. The Lackawanna had some streamlined Pacifics,Ten wheelers, a Hudson (1151, which was 1939 in one streamlining, and 1940, with a different look, the numbers corresponding to the year it was in Flushing Meadow for that years world's fair) and amazingly, an American! (4-4-0, to those of you from Rio Linda!)

[palallin]

The Frisco Firefly; I don't have my references handy for dates. Note that the cars were partly rebuilt heavyweights.