Steam-hauled Streamliners

[Anonymous]

The Illinois Central  post WWII City of New Orleans originally had a connection of through streamlined cars that  that ran between Louisville through Paducha to Fulton, KY where they were combined into the main Chicago-New Orleans train. At the time the IC had no diesel servicing facilities on the Louisville line of the Kentucky Division so they semi streamlined a light Pacific, No, 1146, specifically for this run. To the best of my knowledge this was the only streamlined steam engine the IC ever operated. The Frisco streamlined a number of steam locomotives which reguarly powered the Firefly, the Meteor and the Kansas City-Florida Special. Photos of both the IC and the Frisco streamlined steamers can be viewed on the www.gelwood.railfan site.

Mark

 

Just being a bit technical here about the three Frisco trains mentioned. I think only the Meteor was fully streamlined so far as the train itself was concerned. The Firefly may have been  modernized, not sure. But the  KC-FLA Special was detinately not a full true streamliner with a fast schedule, though it did have quite a few streamlined cars in its consist  through the years and ended its life with a notation that all regularly scheduled cars are streamlined.  But as to being a streamliner at the time it had a streamline-styled locomotive, I think not. .  

[KCSfan]

Bill,

I believe you are right about the Frisco trains. I don't think the KC-FLA Special carried many, if any, streamlined cars in the days when it was steam powered. On the other hand I am fairly certain the Firefly consist was made up of modernized and streamlined (at least as to paint job) heavyweight cars though definitely not a lightweight streamliner when headed by steam.

At the risk of offending some readers there were at least three streamlined steam locomotives that IMHO were less that aestheticly pleasing successes. These were the engines that headed the Reading's Crusader and two NYC trains the Michigan Central's Mercury and the Big Four's James Whitcomb Riley. I have heard these referrred to as looking like "inverted bathtubs". To a lesser degree the same might also be said of the 4-4-2's that powered the original Hiawathas.

Mark

[agentatascadero]

That's interesting re: SJD.  Got dates??  I thought they had dieselized by the time the 3/4 domes were built in the mid 1950's.

The first SP domes, completed in 1954, were assigned to the SJD, the train was dieselized in 1956.  There's a Pentrex SP video which shows extensive footage of 51/52, in steam, with the dome-lounge.  It appears 51/52 had that distinction (only regularly scheduled steam/domeliner) for about two years.  Steam was assigned between Oakland and Bakersfield until 1956.  Bakersfield-LA was dieselized earlier, about 1953, I think, but I'm certain of the 1956 date, when steam was retired system wide.   AA

[Anonymous]

AA--

How bout that.  Learn something new every day.  Thx for the info.

[daveklepper]

I can report on having ridden a standard (but with modern air-conditioning) Pullman sleeper from Kansas City to Jacksonville in 1959 on the Frisco's KC-Florida special.  This was a business trip, and because a had several clients sharing the expenses I was able to spring for the drawing room in the 12 Section 1 Drawing Room sleeper.   I remember lighweight coaches on the train, and at least one had a letterboard lettered for "The Meteor."   During the layover in Memphis, the Rock Island's RDC departed.  The departure gate said to Tucomarci  (spelling?) but I suspect that was via connection and the car may have only to some mainline point further east.

[Anonymous]

Actually, about that RDC -----the remnant of the Chocktow Rockette (note spelling  Rockette rather than Rocket) ---it  really was the entire train.; Though  former lightweight cars were added in Memphis when needed.  

[Anonymous]

And.....since the Rockette, such as it was, survived only because of the mail contract, in the mid-1950s RI took the baggage compartments out of the three RDC3s assigned to the run and converted the entire space to a 30' RPO, making them probably the only (any others anyone can think of?????) what might be described as "RDC 3-1/2" full-length combination RPO-coach RDCs, with a 30'RPO compartment and a 48-seat coach compartment.

But wait!  There's more!...the LW car they occasionally dragged (or tried to drag, as the RDC was really not designed to drag anything--pull up the old RDC thread) was a streamlined round end baggage-observation coach, where the express and storage mail were treated to a great view out the round end rear windows and the few (if any) passengers rode in the vestibule end.  Truly a bizarre car, but such was the Rock.

BTW, not that it matters since this thread is interesting anyway, but what does the Rockette have to do with steam power??  When the RDC died, they dragged it with a diesel.

[mj3200]

Was reading this old thread with intrest. One thing I'd like more info on though is it's been stated that the Chief was steam hauled 'till '47 or so. It probably was, but had it been re-equiped with streamlined stock by then?

I have a book entitled "The Santa Fe Chiefs" and there is no mention of the modern version of the Chief being steam hauled except for helpers in mountain districts.

Hope it was though.....

Any info appreciated.

Jonathan 

[passengerfan]

The Santa Fe Chief received streamlined cars in 1938 and new Hudsons non-streamlined except for one hauled the trains from Chicago to the foot of the Rockies where new non-streamlined Northerns hauled the trains to Los Angeles. In 1946 the Santa Fe converted several FT A-B-B-A freighters to passenger service and assigned some to the Chief. Not all Chief consists were diesel powered until 1947 when the A-B-A sets of Alco PAs were assigned. There was a brief period when the Chiefs lost there fully streamlined consists when the Super Chiefs went daily and some cars were borrowed from the Chief consists. This only lasted for about two years and the Chiefs and Super Chiefs were fully streamlined once again. The heavyweights temporarily assigned to the Chiefs were shadowlined striped to match the fluted sides of the lightweight cars.

Al - in - Stockton  

[wjstix]

The Dakota 400 had a streamlined Pacific. Among the others:
James Whitcomb Riley Big Four (NYC)
Mercury Mich. Central (also NYC)
Tennesean Southern's only S/L Ps-4 Wa***o Lynchburg N&W J there to Bristol.
There are,for sure, many others. TLC has a new book out titled The Steamliners on this very subject.

CNW's Minnesota 400 used streamlined c.1912 Pacifics starting in 1940 or 1941. They were primarily yellow, matching the passenger cars better, unlike the more famous CNW streamlined engines that were dark green. By the time it became the Dakota 400 (basically same train, different name), it had already been dieselized.

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

I had read in "The Palimpsest" that the CNW-UP operated the "Gold Coast" which was steam locomotive operated along with the normal parade of the "Cities" Streamliners but whether that train was streamlined and if it lasted up until October 30, 1955 when the Chicago - Omaha segment was switched to the Milwaukee Road I don't know.  

[Deggesty]

The Gold Coast was not streamlined; it was discontinued before June 1955. It was a three-night-out train between Chicago and Oakland

[Gunneral]

As a matter of interest the LNER in the UK ran a streamlined steam loco hauled train called the "Silver Jubilee" from September 1935 between London and Newcastle on Tyne. The locomotive used was a streamlined Gresley A4 Pacific and the car consist was of 7 stainless steel articulated cars, later extended to 8, fitted with valances. The first locomotive used on this train was named "Silver Link", this was the same class of locomotive as "Mallard" which still holds the world steam locomotive speed record.

 

 

 

[Mac46]

One omission to the list of steam hauled streamliners is the Great Northern Empire Builder. Hauled by the 4-8-4 S-2 that had the largest drivers built. Dieselization occurred after WW2.

[passengerfan]

One omission to the list of steam hauled streamliners is the Great Northern Empire Builder. Hauled by the 4-8-4 S-2 that had the largest drivers built. Dieselization occurred after WW2.

The Empire Builder was not streamlined until 1947 and the E-7 diesels arrived in 1946. Pullman Standard delivered the five streamlined train sets in January and February 1947 and the streamlined Empire Builders entered service in late February 1947 exact date I can not remember off the top of my head.

Al - in - Stockton

[Texas Chief]

The Blue Goose was no. 3460

3460, "The Blue Goose", a 4-6-4 Hudson, was the ONLY FULLY streamlined steam engine that Santa Fe ever owned!!. To the best of my knowwledge it never pulled the Chief. The nearest it came to it was the "Fast Mail Express", and which consisted of baggage, RPO's, express box cars and express reefers from Chicago to LA and back, and the "Grand Canyon". The "VALLEY FLYER" had a SEMI-streamlined  4-6-2 Pacific pulling it for a while in the thirty's.

Dick

Texas Chief

[passengerfan]

The Blue Goose was no. 3460

3460, "The Blue Goose", a 4-6-4 Hudson, was the ONLY FULLY streamlined steam engine that Santa Fe ever owned!!. To the best of my knowwledge it never pulled the Chief. The nearest it came to it was the "Fast Mail Express", and which consisted of baggage, RPO's, express box cars and express reefers from Chicago to LA and back, and the "Grand Canyon". The "VALLEY FLYER" had a SEMI-streamlined  4-6-2 Pacific pulling it for a while in the thirty's.

Dick

Texas Chief

The Blue Goose and the other non-streamlined Hudsons of that class were assigned to the streamlined Chiefs and operated between Chicago and Lamar Colorado where new Northerns took over for the rest of the trip to Los Angeles. This lasted until the FT units converted from freighters were assigned to the train following WW II and then came the A-B-A sets of Alco PAs.

Al - in - Stockton

[Mac46]

One omission to the list of steam hauled streamliners is the Great Northern Empire Builder. Hauled by the 4-8-4 S-2 that had the largest drivers built. Dieselization occurred after WW2.

The Empire Builder was not streamlined until 1947 and the E-7 diesels arrived in 1946. Pullman Standard delivered the five streamlined train sets in January and February 1947 and the streamlined Empire Builders entered service in late February 1947 exact date I can not remember off the top of my head.

Al - in - Stockton

I stand corrected. They were semi-streamlined begining in the 30's.

 www.gnrhs.org/75th_anniversary.htm

[passengerfan]

One omission to the list of steam hauled streamliners is the Great Northern Empire Builder. Hauled by the 4-8-4 S-2 that had the largest drivers built. Dieselization occurred after WW2.

The Empire Builder was not streamlined until 1947 and the E-7 diesels arrived in 1946. Pullman Standard delivered the five streamlined train sets in January and February 1947 and the streamlined Empire Builders entered service in late February 1947 exact date I can not remember off the top of my head.

Al - in - Stockton

I stand corrected. They were semi-streamlined begining in the 30's.

 www.gnrhs.org/75th_anniversary.htm

What gave the Empire Builder Semi-Streamlined status was twelve 58 seat coaches 938-949 delivered by Pullman Standard in 1937. These cars had a streamlined appearance without skirting and instead of being welded were riveted. Windows were sealed and contained Thermopane glass. The first use of this type glass in a Railroad setting. It was so successful that most passenger cars following featured Thermopane glass. Each Empire Builder consist operated with three of these cars (2 Chicago-Seattle and 1 Chicago - Portland).

Following delivery of the streamlined Empire Builders in 1947 the cars underwent repainting to the so called Empire Builder colorsand were assigned to the Oriental Limited. After that train was streamlined and became the Western Star several were assigned to the Badger and Gopher between Minneapolis/St. Paul and Duluth/Superior. The remaining cars were assigned to the Cascadian between Spokane and Seattle and the GN Portland Pool Train.

Hope this helps.

Al - in - Stockton   

[Texas Zepher]

One omission to the list of steam hauled streamliners is the Great Northern Empire Builder. Hauled by the 4-8-4 S-2 that had the largest drivers built. Dieselization occurred after WW2.

But that doesn't matter since the list the original poster was trying to accumulate is where the locomotive is streamlined as well.  The GN didn't have any streamlined steam locomotives.

I've got a picture of a streamlined Western Pacific train with some of the California Zephyr cars in it (domes and all) behind a WP Mikado. But once again that doesn't count since the Mike isn't streamlined.

I am thinking the list might be easier to accumulate by simply making a list of the streamlined steam locomotives and then work backward into the trains they pulled. 

[wjstix]

I know this is a bit off topic, but since the Builer came up...it's interesting to me that the orange and green paint scheme is now called the GN "Empire Builder" scheme. That paint scheme was first used on GN diesels at least as far back as the FT sets of 1941, no passenger cars were painted in those colors until the streamlined cars arrived in 1947.

Oddly enough, the FTs were first used in pasenger service on the Badger and Gopher - hauling a passenger train one direction, returning the same day with a freight train. Maybe it should be called the "Gopher" paint scheme?? (Though that would be maroon and gold, wouldn't it??)

[twhite]

Well, my question is about streamliners pulled by streamlined AND non-streamlined steam locos.
And I also heard that on the Rio Grande there was some regular steam action on streamlined trains....

During the late 'forties, when Rio Grande began streamlining their "Royal Gorge", largely with equipment that they bought second-hand from C&O's ill-fated "Chessie" streamliners, the train was for a time, a hodge-podge of older Pullman equipment and newer streamlined cars, including an ex-Chessie dome.  Around 1949 or so, the equipment was painted in the four-stripe Grande Gold and Silver scheme and for a time was pulled by one of the Rio Grande's 1800 series Northerns.  I have several color photos of the train from 1950, just before the train was dieselized, and it's still a mix of older and newer cars, including the dome-observation, which was adapted to be run mid-train by a partial re-build.  It's a very unique looking train, about the only photograph I've ever seen of a 4-8-4 pulling a dome passenger train.  At least on the Rio Grande. 

Tom

[wjstix]

One omission to the list of steam hauled streamliners is the Great Northern Empire Builder. Hauled by the 4-8-4 S-2 that had the largest drivers built. Dieselization occurred after WW2.

But that doesn't matter since the list the original poster was trying to accumulate is where the locomotive is streamlined as well.  The GN didn't have any streamlined steam locomotives.

Well the original post asked about "streamlined passenger trains" regularly pulled by "(streamlined) steam locomotives", which I take as meaning it could be streamlined or non-streamlined engines. GN didn't regularly assign steam engines to pull the streamlined EB so it still doesn't count, but I'm sure you could find instances of a 4-8-4 pinch-hitting for the E units in the late forties on the streamlined Builder, or perhaps a 4-6-2 or 4-8-2 on a later streamlined GN train.

Did anyone mention the silver streamlined CB&Q Hudsons used to back up the Zephyr's diesels??

[arkansasrailfan]

don't forget the 49ers run by the UP in the 1930s! The engines were converted Pacifics and Mountains(and those same mountains were used in Helper service for PAssenger trains.)

[Texas Zepher]

wjstix

it's interesting to me that the orange and green paint scheme is now called the GN "Empire Builder" scheme. That paint scheme was first used on GN diesels at least as far back as the FT sets of 1941, no passenger cars were painted in those colors until the streamlined cars arrived in 1947.

When the founder and long time president of the railroad's nick name is Empire Builder, why would one assume the paint scheme name has anything to do with the passenger train of the same name?  There are many things in the GN and Hill Lines called "Empire Builder" that have nothing in common other than James Hill.  Then again I have seen/read no evidence that the GN itself ever called the paint scheme empire builder, that could be a moniker applied by railfans and/or modelers in recent history totally disjunct from any real events at the railroad.  

Likewise UP has a locomotive and passenger train called Challenger.  As near as I can tell the names are simply coincedence. 

[arkansasrailfan]

yep, and there was a Shuttle too. But thats gone too. Thanks to some manager at NASA.

[De Luxe]

 Hey guys,

it feels good to be back on the forum after more than 2 years of absence! As I see my old nickname DeLuxe is still standing here, so I had to rename myself De Luxe now, with the gap. But you must now that it´s the same person.

Thank you for all the replies on this topic. Tomorrow I´ll put up a list of all the streamliner-trains you mentioned here that were pulled by any kind of steam. Then we can still check if there´s still anything left.

[De Luxe]

Here is the list:

List of streamlined passenger trains, that were REGULARILY hauled by streamlined AND non-streamlined (standard) steam locomotives:

Note: Feel free to correct the list and to add year dates to the trains where these dates are still open. 

Twentieth Century Limited 1938 - 1947
Morning Daylight 1937-1953
Hiawathas (Morning, Afternoon, Twin Cities, North Woods, Chippewa) 1936- 1948
Empire State Express 1941- 1948
Lark 1940-1953
San Joaquin Daylights 1940 - 1956
City of Memphis ? - ?
Dixie Flagler Chicago - Jacksonville Dieselized after 1947
South Wind Chicago - Jacksonville dieselized after 1947
Midwest Hiawatha  Chicago - Omaha 1939 - 1951
Powhatan Arrow ? - ?
Morning, Noon, Coast, Sacramento Daylights 1937 - 1955
Sunbeam, Hustler 1937 - 1953
Crusader 1938 - 1949
Firefly ? - ?
Lackawanna Limited ? - ?
Asa Packer ? - ?
Black Diamond ? - ?
Dakota/Minnesota 400 ? - ?
James Whitcomb Riley ? - ?
Mercury Limited ? - ?
Tennessean ? - ?
One of CBQ´s Zephyr trains (which one???) ? - ?
Merchants Limited around 1947
A NKP train (don´t know the name) ? - ?
Cincinnatian ? - ?
Chief 1938 - 1947
Broadway Limited 1938 - 1949
Spirit of St. Louis 1938 - ?
Liberty Limited 1938 - ?
Treasure Island Special 1939
Arizona Limited 1939 - 1941
Lark 1940 - 1955
Jeffersonian ? - ?
Southerner ? - ?
Phoebe Snow ? - ?
Wall Street ? - ?
Maple Leaf ? - ?
Texas Special (Waco - San Antonio) 1948 - 1950
Texas Zephyr (Fort Worth - Dallas) ? - ?
City of New Orleans (somewhere after WW 2) ? - ?
Meteor ? - ?
Kansas City Florida Special ? - ?
Golden State (Tucumari - El Paso(/Los Angeles) 1947 - 1948
Starlight ? - ?
49er ? - ?
Overland (Limited) ? - ?
San Diegan ? - ?
Grand Canyon ? - ?
Chicagoan ? - ?
El Pasoan ? - ?
Kansas Cityan ? - ?
Texan ? - ?
Royal Blue ? - ?
Royal Gorge 1949 - 1950
The Cavalier ? - ?
The Pelican ? - ?
The Pocahontas ? - ?
George Washington ? - ?
Sportsman ? - ?
One of T&P´s Eagle trains ? - ? (I have seen pictures of a streamlined T&P Pacific and a non-streamlined T&P Mountain, both painted into blue and white Eagle colors, that´s why I suppose this might have been the case)

[jrbernier]

  The 'Dakota 400' (Chicago-Huron) was pulled by diesels.  The 'Minnesota 400' (Wyeville-Mankato) was pulled by steam.  Originally, by standard 4-4-2's with HW cars.  Later they got streamlined cars and three 4-6-2's received streamlined shrouding to match the cars.   After WWII, the 'Minnesota 400' was replaced by the 'Dakota 400' and was pulled by E7's on it's first run.  If the 3 streamlined 4-6-2's were ever used as 'protection power' on the 'Dakota 400', it is a 'maybe'.  I suspect they went into local/suburban service and then right to the scrap yard.

  The CB&Q has two if the 4-6-4 Hudsons streamlined.  They were used a 'protection power' for the diesel Zephyr fleet and spent most of their streamlined time pulling secondary trains.  IIRC, the streamlined shrouds were removed for scrap in WWII.

Jim Bernier

[Deggesty]

If you are referring to the Southern's Southerner, it should not be in the list, as it was pulled by diesel engines from the first. I do not know about the MoP's Southerner.

The Tennesean was pulled by steam (rebuilt with streamlining) between Washington and Monroe in the beginning, as the Southern could not work a diesel into its schedule. By 9-1-1946, the Southern used diesels between Washington and Monroe. From the beginning, it was pulled by diesels between Bristol and Memphis. Of course, until 12-31-1957, the N&W used steam between Monroe and Bristol. Sad to say, I never did get to ride behind the PA's that were operated between Bristol and Memphis, as my first trip on this train on the Southern was right after New Year's 1958, and the two roads had begun operating E's through between Washington and Memphis (and the Pelican and Birmingham Special power was also operated through from Washington). Going down to the Bristol station after 1-1-1958 was not the same as it had been.

 According to the Southern timetables of 1949-50, the KC-Fla Special was handled regularly by diesels when it began carrying lightweight sleepers. I do not know about lightweight coaches, though until in 1950 the Frisco still used steam power whereas Southern began using diesel power after the winter season of 1948-49.

After the Crescent was re-equiped with lightweight sleepers in 1949, it was still handled by steam over the West Point route and the L&N until in 1950, when diesel power was used all the way south of Washington. Incidentally, until the Depression, the train was known as the Crescent Limited; during the Depression it was known as Trains 37 and 38; between January 1938 and October 1938, it was renamed Crescent.

When the Pelican and Birmingham Special began carrying lightweight sleepers in 1949, the Pelican was still powered by steam from Washington to Monroe, and the Birmingham Special  was powered by steam from Monroe to Washington. By 12-27-1951, diesels were used both ways on both trains.

I do not remember if the N&W began using diesels on its other trains before 1959.

I do not believe that the City of New Orleans ever had steam power regularly; the train was inaugurated after WW II.