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Jim Crow laws & railroads

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:38 AM

This matter will never be settled. There was some virtue and some evil on both sides, even if I consider the North's position to be somewhat (but certianly not completely) more virtuous. There are very good arguments that:

1. The North did not want the South to be able to choose manufactured products from both Great Britain and the North, but wanted the economy to link the mostly agraculturual south exclusively (almost) to an industrialized north.

2. If the North's treatment of south had proceded as planned by Lincoln and not gone into a more retrubitive mode after his life was ended, the lives of the black in the South would have been far better, and Jim Crow would probably not have existed or not have existed in as virulent a form.

The arguments about right and wrongs in the "Civil War" or "War between the States" will go on forever. I think we should be friends and concentrate only on the effect on railroading.
e
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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, June 10, 2006 10:11 AM
Since secession led to rebellion against the United States, this rebellion was "levying war against the United States", which is part of the Constitutional definition of TREASON.
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Posted by PBenham on Friday, June 9, 2006 4:38 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Tim Burton

QUOTE: Originally posted by easter

Somehow the words,"One nation, under God ,indivisible ,with liberty and justice for all," didn't apply here.Easter.


That's because that was a saying made up by a socialist well after all death of the Founding Fathers.

Jim Crow would have never been an issue if the North would have let the South free the slaves in the same manner that the North did. One that wouldn't economically destroy the South. The North was hypocrites, they allowed years to remove slaves from the population and send them south before the Slaves were freed, but instead they wanted the South to dump it ASAP regardless of the cost to whites or blacks.

A great example is the Seccesion Papers by MS.

It isn't until 2/3 of the way through that they start really complaining about slavery (only the abuse of the agreements of the North), and they say.

QUOTE: It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.

It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.


The Abolition movement wasn't peaceful in the slightest and in the second part they complain that the North had no response on how to release them fairly to benefit everyone.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Mississippi_causes.htm

Pretty much, ever Seccesion complained about the double standard or the lack of compassion about how to justly free the slaves.

I personally believe that the North and the South would have been much better if the North would have looked to help the South Emancipate the slaves rather than force them to free them.

Had the freed them like Britain did, there would have been disaster. Had Britain not paid off both owners and slaves it would have been utter chaos rather than just the mess it was.

Georgia's biggest complaint in it's declaration is the lack of enforcement of the "full faith and credit" clause.

And let's not forget the free states passed laws in order to keep blacks out of their states, they didn't want them, whereas the south treated free blacks well. So much so, that even Tocqueville commented about the racial tranquility in the south.
Tim, this posting is chilling! Please re-consider what you have posted here. You misquoted some of your sources,and /or misinterpreted what you read!
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Posted by Tim Burton on Friday, June 9, 2006 12:55 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by easter

Somehow the words,"One nation, under God ,indivisible ,with liberty and justice for all," didn't apply here.Easter.


That's because that was a saying made up by a socialist well after all death of the Founding Fathers.

Jim Crow would have never been an issue if the North would have let the South free the slaves in the same manner that the North did. One that wouldn't economically destroy the South. The North was hypocrites, they allowed years to remove slaves from the population and send them south before the Slaves were freed, but instead they wanted the South to dump it ASAP regardless of the cost to whites or blacks.

A great example is the Seccesion Papers by MS.

It isn't until 2/3 of the way through that they start really complaining about slavery (only the abuse of the agreements of the North), and they say.

QUOTE: It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.

It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.


The Abolition movement wasn't peaceful in the slightest and in the second part they complain that the North had no response on how to release them fairly to benefit everyone.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Mississippi_causes.htm

Pretty much, ever Seccesion complained about the double standard or the lack of compassion about how to justly free the slaves.

I personally believe that the North and the South would have been much better if the North would have looked to help the South Emancipate the slaves rather than force them to free them.

Had the freed them like Britain did, there would have been disaster. Had Britain not paid off both owners and slaves it would have been utter chaos rather than just the mess it was.

Georgia's biggest complaint in it's declaration is the lack of enforcement of the "full faith and credit" clause.

And let's not forget the free states passed laws in order to keep blacks out of their states, they didn't want them, whereas the south treated free blacks well. So much so, that even Tocqueville commented about the racial tranquility in the south.
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Posted by egmurphy on Thursday, June 1, 2006 6:43 PM
I recently saw another "Jim Crow" car at the Age of Steam Museum in Dallas. It's a day coach, Frisco #759. It's the first one I've actually seen in person at a museum. The plaque said it ran on the 'Firefly", which was one of the trains mentioned by passengerfan in his post.

Regards

Ed
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Posted by palallin on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:15 PM
Among the surviving Jim Crow cars is one in Rolla, MO. It's an old, open-vetibule heavyweight car under a canopy coupled to Frisco 4-8-2 #1501.
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Posted by mountainrailroad on Friday, April 21, 2006 9:07 PM
My home state of West Virginia did not have Jim Crow laws. However, our neighboring states of Virginia and Kentucky did. Therefore, when the C&O passenger trains crossed the VA-WV border, black folk were free to sit wherever they wanted. However, unless they got off at Huntington, they would have to move to the Jim Crow section to fini***heir trip to Cincinatti or wherever. (West Virginia was the only state to secede from the Confederacy in the Civil War.)
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Posted by BR60103 on Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:39 PM
In the 50s, Toronto Transit bought 48 PCC cars from Birmingham, Al. According to story, these cars arrived with "White" and "Coloured" signs in them. The cars finished out their careers with holes in the handrails on the backs of the seats that signs could be put. I don't know if the signs were put on every seat or if there was a dividing line, or if the designated sections were variable.

--David

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Posted by csmith9474 on Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:44 PM
Pne of the Santa Fe streamlined "Jim Crow" cars was a Pullman built 56 seat partitioned coach. I also read that at one time when the Sunset arrived in El Paso, Texas Rangers would roam the train making sure that those required to ride in Jim Crow cars did so. I guess that once outside of Jim Crow stated, everyone rightfully sat where they wanted.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 20, 2006 8:04 AM
Our town was 90 some miles south of Chicago. A Pullman porter moved his family there and their children attended the same schools that I and my siblings attended.. One of the boys was in the band as I was.
The father would have to 'dead-head' to Chicago where he would work a train from there to St. Louis, then work a train back to Chicago, and finally 'dead-head' back home.
Always admired a man who worked those long hours just so his family would have a better life than what they would have had iif they lived in Chicago.
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:23 AM
The streamliners did not necessarily run "divided" cars, except diners. All the East Coast trains mentioned had sufficient Black patronage as to assigne whole cars, and these are the ones for which I had personal experience.
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:19 AM
Compared to other employment situations, it was good, and the pay made porters middle class. Remember that the porters did form a union; their strike was successful, and Randolph, one of the founders of the union, was also one of the founders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, (NAACP) along with Rabbi Stephen S. Wise, Reverand John Hayes Homes, and one other Protestant Minister whose name can be supplied by another reader.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
there's a movie out on DVD,called "10,000 Black Men named George" It tells of the plight of the Pullman porters in those days. Those were not very good conditions those guys worked under. little benefits,& they could be fired at any time on just the whim of a white passenger. It's good viewing for anyone interested. Easter
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Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 7:42 AM
As promised here is the list of RR's and streamliners that operated Jim Crow coaches.
Not in any particular order.

SP Sunset Limited

AT&SF Texas Chief, Kansas Cityan, Chicagoan, Tulsan, El Pasoan and the connecting trains in Texas to the San Francisco Chief.

Frisco Meteor and Firefly

MKT - Frisco Texas Special

KCS Southern Belle and Flying Crow

MP-T&P Delta Eagle, Texas Eagles 1-2, Texas Eagles 21-22, Louisiana Eagle and Valley Eagles

T&NO Sunbeams and Hustlers

ACL Champions

FEC Champions, Henry M. Flagler, and Dixie Flagler

Seaboard Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Silver Comet

GM&O Rebels and Gulf Coast Rebel

Southern Southerner, Tennessean, Crescent and Royal Palm

IC Miss Lou, City of Miami and City of New Orleans

CofG Man O'War and Nancy Hanks II

L&N Humming Bird and Georgian

NC&STL City of Memphis

MONON Thoroughbred

CRI&P Texas Rocket, Choctaw Rocket and Twin Star Rocket

C&S-FW&D Texas Zephyr

CB&Q Sam Houston Zephyr

Hope that helps for anyone who was curious.
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Posted by PBenham on Monday, April 17, 2006 4:19 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

QUOTE: Originally posted by agentatascadero

P Benham mentions Jim Crow combines with baggage in the middle and passengers on both ends. So P, I have never heard or seen reference to such a car. Perhaps you could cite your source. i can concede that perhaps an individual baggage car was so configured, but no such fleet has ever existed in America, and I have travelled in the south in Jim Crow America.

In the 1967 issue of TRAINS which had an article about the Georgia Railroad's barnchline mixed trains, there is in fact a photo in the article which shows a Jim Crow combine so configured.
During her 1962-5 L&N sponsored return to action, The "General" of "Great Locomotive Chase" fame(or infamy depending on whose side you were on) pulled around a single combine with the center baggage section. Check "The American Passenger Car, 1840(?)-1900" from Johns Hopkins University press, there are pics of such cars in there. Now, where is that thing anyhow...[D)] I can't find my copy of it, as its buried under so much[censored]! To see it on DVD or VHS take a look at New York Central Odyssey Volume one from Green Frog and see the General and her Jim Crow combine in action on the NYC(MC) in Detroit, (by the Greenfield Village)and in Indianapolis(Big 4).
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Posted by markn on Monday, April 17, 2006 1:51 PM
If you haven't read the Thomas Sowell link/article-I would highly recommend you do so-as usual, his work is very insightful and cuts thru the rhetoric.
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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, April 17, 2006 7:02 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by agentatascadero

P Benham mentions Jim Crow combines with baggage in the middle and passengers on both ends. So P, I have never heard or seen reference to such a car. Perhaps you could cite your source. i can concede that perhaps an individual baggage car was so configured, but no such fleet has ever existed in America, and I have travelled in the south in Jim Crow America.

In the 1967 issue of TRAINS which had an article about the Georgia Railroad's barnchline mixed trains, there is in fact a photo in the article which shows a Jim Crow combine so configured.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by agentatascadero on Sunday, April 16, 2006 6:41 PM
P Benham mentions Jim Crow combines with baggage in the middle and passengers on both ends. So P, I have never heard or seen reference to such a car. Perhaps you could cite your source. i can concede that perhaps an individual baggage car was so configured, but no such fleet has ever existed in America, and I have travelled in the south in Jim Crow America.
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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 16, 2006 8:21 AM
I don't think they need to be ashamed. They were obeying laws enforced by others. The fact is that when the streamlined trains were introduced, the comfort for black passengers was assured to be as good as for others. And the Pullman Company was one of the best employees blacks had in the bad old days. And most southern railroads did try to treat both black employees and passengers fairly but much depended on the attitude of the particular white employees involved. The prejudice was generic to the Southern Society. Some of the southern railroads were even outstanding in their fairness, but this would require a lot of research to prove and a good source might be the new museum for black culture and the impact of slavery being developed in Washington. I can say that when one tours Colonial Williamsburg, the issue is NOT swept under the rug but discussed openly and one can see slave quarters.

The equal treatment of black passengers on streamliners is something I know from personal experience having ridden the Silver Meteor, the Champions, and the Southerner before desegregation and having walked through the "Colored" cars.
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Posted by PBenham on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 4:25 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by csmith9474

QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan

I have a list of the lightweight streamlined "Jim Crow" cars that I will dig out after tax season ends. I think many will be surprised by some of the railroads that operated these type cars in named streamlined trains.



Most every railroad that operated passenger trains in Jim Crow states had partitioned cars. That is a big list.
And their successors should be ashamed, very ashamed.
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Posted by csmith9474 on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 3:30 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan

I have a list of the lightweight streamlined "Jim Crow" cars that I will dig out after tax season ends. I think many will be surprised by some of the railroads that operated these type cars in named streamlined trains.



Most every railroad that operated passenger trains in Jim Crow states had partitioned cars. That is a big list.
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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 6:27 AM
I have a list of the lightweight streamlined "Jim Crow" cars that I will dig out after tax season ends. I think many will be surprised by some of the railroads that operated these type cars in named streamlined trains.
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, April 10, 2006 1:34 PM
Again, the modern lightweight streamlined trains always, in every case, provided the same type of seating and amenities for black passengers as for white.
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Posted by Tim Burton on Saturday, April 8, 2006 10:42 PM
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/thomassowell/2005/10/27/173033.html
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Posted by PBenham on Saturday, April 8, 2006 7:10 PM
The "Jim Crow" laws had their roots (no pun intended) in the post civil war period when southerners were deprived of their civil rights by a revenge minded union. Full de-segregation was imposed by the occupation forces from the north. When the "reconstruction"/occupation ended, the white southerners vented their anger accordingly. To the revulsion of far too few people up north, they set about "normalizing" things. They began to restrict the rights of blacks starting in the late 1860s/early'70's using violence and threats of violence. Southern state legislatures and governors, fearing retribution passed descrimination laws. Things got out of hand quickly with the indifference of the northern states being one powerful factor in the growth of this "legal" discrimination. The Jim Crow equipment, at first, was older stock deemed unfit for white riders. There was still a problem for the southern railroads on less heavily patronized runs. Whites insisted on seperate (the "but equal" part came later in the infamous Jim Crow case. A shameful move by the supreme court pandering to the south and racists in general.) accomodations so they would not be "offended" by the presence of blacks in their sight. Thus, cars with baggage or mail compartments had their unique configuration with the baggage and mail compartments in the center of the cars, with the pasengers seated in the ends of the cars. Blacks tended to be placed toward the front of the train, with whites seated to the rear, further from the dirt and cinders emitted by the engine(s). When newer steel equipment was developed, the southern roads had some cars less comfortably equipped for their black patrons, while those for whites were more plesant. The end of this had to wait until the growth of the civil rights movement in the 1960s, aided by television coverage,which showed the truth that Hollywood's news reels refused to expose, because of fears their films would be banned in the south. The south's railroads de-segregated their accomodations under ICC edict in 1961. The equipment inequities persisted for a time until the trains involved were discontinued, or the offending equipment retired.
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Posted by egmurphy on Friday, April 7, 2006 9:46 PM
QUOTE: easter: Does the Blue train still run???


Yes. See:

http://www.bluetrain.co.za/

A bit too rich for my railfanning habit.


Regards

Ed
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 7, 2006 2:40 PM
Daveklepper,sounds like you've had some facinating experiences.Does the Blue train still run??? I imagine that rail travel is still the best means of travel in those regions.Did the Blue train continue to run even though there was still warfare going on in Rhodesia ?? Easter
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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 9:00 AM
The ratio wasn't quite the 95-5, and fortunately the white population itself decided to go to democracy without a real revolution, for which they deserve some credit at least. Most white South Africans stayed in SA after the end of Apartheid. Nothing like what happened to the "black feet French" in most of North Africa.

I visited South Africa some five times in connection with the Sun City development (integrated from the start, inlcuding management, with a number of black people educated in hotel management in Switzerland), and it was apparent that change had already started, and the airline was already non-segregated. Neither was the Blue Train, except possibly in the diner, where without a partition, the few blacks then riding were at one end of the car. This was all before segreation was officially ended. I think that occured as soon as the democratic government was in power.

The late Alexander Hamilton III, a leader in the Seashore Trolley Museum, and a well-known railfan, and I were assigned adjacent plane seats on one of my trips.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 3:52 PM
Anyone know how long "apartheid" kept the railroads in South Africa segregated?? That was really an amazing feat when you think about it. This was like 5% of the population controling the lives of 95% of the people. Easter
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Posted by csmith9474 on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 3:03 PM
One ran on the Sunset Limited well into the streamlined days. If I am not mistaken, it was pulled off in El Paso. I will have to research to verify this.

Edit: I was mistaken. It was a Budd built 48 seat partitioned chair car that was on the entire run from NO to LA and LA to NO. I am not sure what build the earlier cars were.
Smitty

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