Should the Mil. Road have built it's Pacific Ext.?

[Anonymous]

Vote on it

[Anonymous]

Vote on it

[Anonymous]

Did they ever make any money on it?

[Anonymous]

Did they ever make any money on it?

[Wdlgln005]

I don't think any of the Pacific extension is still in operation. Too many miles for too little traffic. It may have worked in an era of government subsidy, but not now!

[Wdlgln005]

I don't think any of the Pacific extension is still in operation. Too many miles for too little traffic. It may have worked in an era of government subsidy, but not now!

[bennerc]

From the perspective of that era, they had no choice. They had to go where the traffic was ( or was expected to be ). Agreements with the Morgan-Hill interests, or Harriman's UP weren't likely. Couldn't foresee what impact a future (Panama) canal might ever have. Even George Gould was (quietly) building the WP to carry his D&RG westward...

[bennerc]

From the perspective of that era, they had no choice. They had to go where the traffic was ( or was expected to be ). Agreements with the Morgan-Hill interests, or Harriman's UP weren't likely. Couldn't foresee what impact a future (Panama) canal might ever have. Even George Gould was (quietly) building the WP to carry his D&RG westward...

[Anonymous]

Agree with you, Craig. But then it was a different era. Western Maryland's Connelsville Extension, virtually the entire Nickel Plate, the Bieber Highline to say nothing of the aforementioned Western Pacific, probably should never have been built. But such business decisions were most often made with the best of intentions with respect to the bottom line.

I do find it ironic that as a railfan and model railroader, all the railroads cited above have garnered a significant portion of my adult railroading interest. Just back from driving Lewis & Clark's route to the Pacific, and on the way back stopped at numerous Milwaukee Road locations in Washington, Idaho and Montana. It's amazing how much interest the railroad still garners out West--and it's been gone for a quarter century. Rick Wright

[Anonymous]

Agree with you, Craig. But then it was a different era. Western Maryland's Connelsville Extension, virtually the entire Nickel Plate, the Bieber Highline to say nothing of the aforementioned Western Pacific, probably should never have been built. But such business decisions were most often made with the best of intentions with respect to the bottom line.

I do find it ironic that as a railfan and model railroader, all the railroads cited above have garnered a significant portion of my adult railroading interest. Just back from driving Lewis & Clark's route to the Pacific, and on the way back stopped at numerous Milwaukee Road locations in Washington, Idaho and Montana. It's amazing how much interest the railroad still garners out West--and it's been gone for a quarter century. Rick Wright

[bennerc]

Rick, sounds like a great trip out to the Pacific. I would be interested to hear more about it - did you take photos? Still a dream of mine to see what's left of the Milwaukee West route, but there is plenty of railroad to see out west here in California, too.

Speaking of the Bieber Highline, while on our family vacation "up north" I snuck away to catch a few UP (ex-WP) hotspots: the Keddie Wye and Williams Loop. Got a few photos posted on the website...
Craig

[bennerc]

Rick, sounds like a great trip out to the Pacific. I would be interested to hear more about it - did you take photos? Still a dream of mine to see what's left of the Milwaukee West route, but there is plenty of railroad to see out west here in California, too.

Speaking of the Bieber Highline, while on our family vacation "up north" I snuck away to catch a few UP (ex-WP) hotspots: the Keddie Wye and Williams Loop. Got a few photos posted on the website...
Craig

[pgillis]

Hindsight has no errors. No, it should not have been build, but as others have stated, the no build list could be quite long. Remember that what made sense at one time, doesn't set it in stone. I figure we will be having this same discussion about every .com that went .dead down the road.

[pgillis]

Hindsight has no errors. No, it should not have been build, but as others have stated, the no build list could be quite long. Remember that what made sense at one time, doesn't set it in stone. I figure we will be having this same discussion about every .com that went .dead down the road.

[Anonymous]

My hindsight of this says that the ICC should have forced the GN, NP and SP&S to interchange with the Milwaukee as the law required. The agency was supposed to protect interstate commerce and the interests of all of the shippers and stockholders. Unfortunately, the other railroads got away with isolating the MILW.

There is nothing like the good old American know who!

[Anonymous]

My hindsight of this says that the ICC should have forced the GN, NP and SP&S to interchange with the Milwaukee as the law required. The agency was supposed to protect interstate commerce and the interests of all of the shippers and stockholders. Unfortunately, the other railroads got away with isolating the MILW.

There is nothing like the good old American know who!

[Anonymous]

Nobody has really pointed this out, but I think it bears repeating. The MILW's Western Extension was a hard way to get to the West Coast. Just look at the number of curves, number of tunnels, etc. I agree with the poster who said that "Hindsight is 20/20"....seems like it was the last big transcontinental line to be built and they had to build where they could, which led to some tough compromises...Seems like they had to electrify the line early on in the game because of smoke in all the tunnels. To make it short, it's hard to make a buck of getting anywhere the HARD way when you run a transportation business, especially if your competitors have better ways of getting to the same destination. I don't mean to offend any Milwaukee fans by saying that, and I hope I didn't offend, just stating a sad but true observation.

[Anonymous]

Nobody has really pointed this out, but I think it bears repeating. The MILW's Western Extension was a hard way to get to the West Coast. Just look at the number of curves, number of tunnels, etc. I agree with the poster who said that "Hindsight is 20/20"....seems like it was the last big transcontinental line to be built and they had to build where they could, which led to some tough compromises...Seems like they had to electrify the line early on in the game because of smoke in all the tunnels. To make it short, it's hard to make a buck of getting anywhere the HARD way when you run a transportation business, especially if your competitors have better ways of getting to the same destination. I don't mean to offend any Milwaukee fans by saying that, and I hope I didn't offend, just stating a sad but true observation.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Pacific Coast Extension is the western version of the Erie. It ran from the Twin Cities to Seattle and managed to miss most of the major traffic sources. As far as interchange with the Hill Lines, the ICC was not about to compel the Hill Lines to shorthaul themselves. When MILW was awarded eleven new interchange points as a condition of the BN merger in 1970, it didn't seem to have much of an effect on revenues.
I generally subscribe to George Hilton's view of the role of the ICC. The ICC didn't exist so much as to force competition as to stabilize rates.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Pacific Coast Extension is the western version of the Erie. It ran from the Twin Cities to Seattle and managed to miss most of the major traffic sources. As far as interchange with the Hill Lines, the ICC was not about to compel the Hill Lines to shorthaul themselves. When MILW was awarded eleven new interchange points as a condition of the BN merger in 1970, it didn't seem to have much of an effect on revenues.
I generally subscribe to George Hilton's view of the role of the ICC. The ICC didn't exist so much as to force competition as to stabilize rates.

[Anonymous]

When they built it did anybody envision the interstate highway system construction that began in the 1950s? Without that the Pacific Extension and a lot of other abandoned rail lines might still be around.

[Anonymous]

When they built it did anybody envision the interstate highway system construction that began in the 1950s? Without that the Pacific Extension and a lot of other abandoned rail lines might still be around.

[Anonymous]

Remember, the MILW was the shortest route Chicago-Seattle. And the CMStP&P was about the only road east and west of Chicago.
That said, here's what might have saved the Extension
AC electrification, they made a mistake with that DC.
Double stack, with the Juice I "think" the route had the requisite clearance.
Better management, people who weren't corcern with lining their pockets after liquidation.
Some of the line is still in use by BNSF.

[Anonymous]

Remember, the MILW was the shortest route Chicago-Seattle. And the CMStP&P was about the only road east and west of Chicago.
That said, here's what might have saved the Extension
AC electrification, they made a mistake with that DC.
Double stack, with the Juice I "think" the route had the requisite clearance.
Better management, people who weren't corcern with lining their pockets after liquidation.
Some of the line is still in use by BNSF.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

AC electrification is more 20-20 hindsight. At the time the route was electrified, the AC vs. DC debate was still pretty strong. This was the first really long electrification and was a big risk in and of itself.
Clearances for double-stack could be a problem with the number of tunnels involved. Most catenary is about 25 ft above rail in open areas and double-stack is about 20 ft above rail. Tunnels would probably need bo be enlarged.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

AC electrification is more 20-20 hindsight. At the time the route was electrified, the AC vs. DC debate was still pretty strong. This was the first really long electrification and was a big risk in and of itself.
Clearances for double-stack could be a problem with the number of tunnels involved. Most catenary is about 25 ft above rail in open areas and double-stack is about 20 ft above rail. Tunnels would probably need bo be enlarged.

[AltonFan]

QUOTE: Clearances for double-stack could be a problem with the number of tunnels involved. Most catenary is about 25 ft above rail in open areas and double-stack is about 20 ft above rail. Tunnels would probably need bo be enlarged.

What about third rail for the tunnels?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by lincoln5390

When they built it did anybody envision the interstate highway system construction that began in the 1950s? Without that the Pacific Extension and a lot of other abandoned rail lines might still be around.

From what I understand, Eisenhower's idea for the interstate system came from
Adolph Hitler's building of the Autobahn in Germany. Not that I am praising the
madmad Hitler, but whoever his henchman was that thought of the idea and sold
Hitler on it did a good thing because I have been told that that is where Eisenhower
came up with the idea and then expanded the thing to be a nation wide system of
roads in the U.S.

weezerbeezergeezer
Memphis, TN

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