Good afternoon gentlemen. Just popping in to make sure that H&H and Copperkettle got all the brunch parifinalia put away and cleaned up for next week.I nice spat of phoot's today folks good to see things comming in from several fronts
Tom-Good show on your team of imports beating those New York imports If all goes well and you pick a couple more up you can play the Michigan imports for the big tamaliI'll dunk once Lars reads this post. A fine choice for your final encore for a few weeks. Much like my experiance with the forum recently you will likley never get the final word on that mystery illness.Good movie picks for this week as well,both features were great movies and reside in the trolleyboy collection
I'm always happy to provide the material. I know that those of us who come in regularly and give a rats patoot do read and appreciate them. Besides from the number of hits we get,I'm sure that others are reading and just not participating. Thier loss.I'll definatly pop by the other thread with some traction shots as well. Who knows who else might be swinging from the trolley wire eh
Doug-great article on the IT and it's vehicles. loved the pictures as well. For me to hazzard a guess as to when they were taken it's hard to say. With modern B/W film those could be very resent or from the 50's. We shall wait to get the answer from you.
Nick-That was a strange combination of fluids wasn't it. perhaps it was my eveil twin Rodger I'm glad to hear that no furnature was broken during Hanna's sugar induced frenzy Imagine the repercussions of Boris eating something like that , there would be no stopping him . Great photo's today as well. Loved the RS10's waiting at the station beside the MS&C cars. If you ever get over here again, a stop to ride on MS&C 107 at the museum is a must . I'm of two minds on the F unit painy scheme. You are right that is a wonderfull paintjob, but I am partial to CP's maroon and grey script scheme. Then there is NYC's ligthening stripe and .....
Eric-Loved the photo's,at least with some outside help we can still see them and enjoy them To your question about those regulations, they were created in the 1890's when alot of the steet railways didn't rail bond grounds into the track. they instead used the ground as the completer of the circut so rewiring could be a hairy ( litterally a hair raising ) experiance.
Back in a flash with some photo's.
Rob
Okay a few traction shots for everyone's viewing enjoyment.
This shot is Toronto Civic 55 and Toronto Railway Company 1326 comming down hwy 7 to the museum in 1955 our first two cars comming home. Photo by Bob Sandusky OERHA member #4 photo from the OERHA archives.
Lake Erie and Northern car 622 at Brantford Station 1952 from OERHA collection photographer unknown
Large Peter Witt 2424 leaving Russell carhouse in 1954 Al Patterson photo from OERHA collection
Large Peter Witt 2424 at the HCRY in 1993 Photo by me !
Enjoy Rob
Okay one more batch of traction shots for this week. Since Nick hit us with a shot of MS&C equipment here's a few more for everyone to enjoy. Also my Classic Juice #3 from page 131 will give everyone a general rundown on the MS&C as well.
Here's a neat montage of shots on MS&C Combine 107 the first shots from 1939 the second from 1947 both from the OERHA collection, the last is from 2005 at the museum as shot by myself.
The next two shots are again from the OERHA collection Al patterson the shooter.The first one is MSC car # 306 taken just before the line was abandonned in 1956. The second is one of the MS&C's heavy snowsweepers parked at the St lambert Carhouse in 1953
G-day captain Tom and all.
I'm afraid I can't order anything today but I will tomorrow.
Tom, I got your message and I understand. I will make sure to be here on those days. And I will start ordering something while I'm at it. Anyway.. The Hunt for the Red October is an excellent movie. I watched it about 2 years ago for the first time and I thought it was great.
Barndad- Pics are some of my favorite ways to explain things. I give you a pick and an explanation about it. My next few here will be interesting.
Nick- An armored Pay rollcar!!! Thats funny. It is a different locomotive, and I have a little info coming up on it.
Rob- I will deffinently be saving the pics. I have learned now not to post them all the time and what days they should be posted. But I have a string of pix today.
Eric-I have some info on that locomotive. These locomotives were built from B-units for the rocky mountain rocket. There were only two of them. #s 750 and 751. The one pictured was #751. Later on, they had HEP installed for commuter service. One of the Rocks ideas for trying to interest the public in taking the train. I think. And maybe it was an idea for just an idea. I don't really know.
Talking about passenger service: these were some of the newer paint schemes the Milwaukee road used before they went out of business in 1981. This commuter train was taken 6 years before then in 1975. I believe the idea behind this was to try and pull in as much business as possible.
Now this one is interesting. ( Don't mind the snow outside) This is inside a SD60M in the Moutains of Montana. Notice the Raillink units sitting outside the train. The brandnew SD70ACe is looking sharp.
I maybe wrong but I thought the whole purpose of GE was to have a better exhaust emition than that of EMDs. By the looks of it those EMDs are putting out less. Must be another cyclinder problem or two causing the rukis. Anyway nice shot, especially with Sd40s leading the way.
Happy railroading!
James
Howdy hi again folks, and it looks like we've had a great photo day to me! Looks like we've got more movies to watch, and some great pix from Tom. Really purty scenery sir. Especially the sunset in Edmonton. Enjoyed Rob's many traction pix as well. I surely love to see preserved railroad cars! Nice pix as well from James. I'm not able to get inside modern cabs and equipment, and they're most impressive. Great contribution from you as well today.
And now ...for the answer to my question from earlier today. I have to admit to being bad. The pictures were not of prototypes. I wanted to see if I would get caught showing models!
I got them from the August 1959 edition of Model Railroader. All of the traction scenes show ¼” scale models built by Bill Clouser of St. Louis. The setting for the scenes is a 15” X 50”, four-track wide shop area Bill built especially for photographing his finished models. The background is a full size replica of the St. Louis Public Service Co.’s shop wall, were incidentally, the prototype line used to photograph all its equipment. Bill’s shop wall is illustration board covered with Holgate & Reynolds plastic brick material, painted and aged. This special setting is for photography only and is not a part of Bill’s traction layout. It is portable and may be carried outdoors into sunlight – which accounts for the superb lighting of Bill’s photos. While Bill’s line is ¼” scale, it is not “O” gauge. He uses a closer-to-scale track gauge of 1 3/16” instead of the more common 1 ¼” track gauge. And he uses scale flanges, and in shop area, HO rail, hence the super realism of wheels and track in photos. Yes, the scale figures are practical and Bill’s models do operate with beautiful smoothness.
Must be nice to have models so outstanding that they deserve their own layout just for photography!
I did something new today. My wife and I attended a Railroadiana. She happened to see a scrapbook there that someone had made, mostly consisting of old Southern Railway Magazines (Ties). I got the whole book for $5! I also purchased several metal RR signs, which I'll be photographing for ya'll later. I happened to locate a stock certificate for the Chicago New York Electric Air Line (remember the stories from Rob and myself about six weeks ago?), but the cost was $45, and I didn't buy it. I'd rather have a copy of the Air Line News, which was the lines publication for their stockholders, but did not see any of that. I also picked-up some interesting information from a Wabash Historical Society, and I'll be sharing info on them as well.
That's it for my Sunday, and have a great evening!
Evening gents-a post and run tonight I`m sorry to say-will make full responses tomorrow
Tonights offerings are all expansions on points made R.E MIKE`s URLs on Snowdon
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For the first pair we have:-An early morning service on the 2ft gauge Llanberis Lake rly,laid over the former 4ft gauge Padarn rly-the combination of steam & mist from the lake almost obscures the works train behind. shot taken at Penllyn
Below this,the restored funicular joining the main yards and former cutting sheds at Gilfach Ddu with the first level of the galleries-note loaded & empty slate hutches
Top:-Thomas Bach (formerly Wild Aster ) blt 1904 running round at Gilfach Ddu--she is kept company by Elidir (1889) & Dolbadarn (1922),all more or less identical "quarry Hunslets" and all of which formerly worked the galleries
Lower:-Festiniog rly `double Fairlie` at Portmadoc-included as it was on the same scan,shot the previous day
Top:- the top end of the former yard,note loco shed on left & tunnel leading to further workings
Lower:-work proceeds on the extension from Gilfach Ddu around the head of the lake into Llanberis-right background,the slate museum,R .foreground,Missisnick and (V) small Hannah attempt to give me the slip-just beyond them can be seen the lifted connection between rly and museum
Top:- the station buildings are dwarfed by the old workings behind-much of which have been reclaimed by nature
Lower-track gangs of the world unite !! -museum at rear,skulking family to left
Top:-Beddgelert (Welsh Highland Rly) looking towards Snowdon-If you look carefully,the old right of way is just visible in the trees above the shed and climbing to the right
Lower:-Snowdon ,taken from Cei Llydan on the lake
All four above:- Portmeirion,Clough Williams-Ellis`s Italianate village,just across the bay from Portmadoc (nearest staion-Minffordd,Festiniog & B.R)-all buildings are one third to one quarter full size but the reduction is not immediately apparent-a delightful spot for a visit (the pix fail to do it justice)
Here we have "Chaloner" blt 1877 by de Winton of Caernavon-these vertical boilered beautys were the predecessors of the quarry Hunslets and a number of them worked the Padarn lines-poss. inc. this one,but not known for sure
She is normally found on the Leighton Buzzard Lt rly in Bedfordshire but is seen here at a gala at Newcastle Emlyn,not far from me
A diesel medley for dessert -C/W from top-Haverfordwest,Aberystwyth,Stogumber (?) West Somerset rly & Swansea
Right chaps,early night for me (don`t laugh-it happens once in a while..) take care,speak tomorrow
nick
Good morning Tom and everyone else,
Pancake breakfast, coffee and orange juice please.
Tom, I look forward to some pics of the VIA rail diners, have to say though I could not view any of the pics you recently posted from your trip on The Canadian, which is a great shame, and on this theme – I’ve never been able to view any of Nick’s pictures. Despite this pics from James and Rob (and most others) come through loud and clear (nice trolley pics recently Rob – appreciated). Probably a hitch my end but there we are.
Nick – I certainly agree with your comment on prices – read an interesting article in Rail magazine not so long ago which was an operator by operator table of fare increases in the UK for the regulated and unregulated fares since privatisation, matched against inflation for the 10 year period we have now passed – some real shocking rises on some operators (Great Western and Virgin being come to mind as particularly bad offenders).
Rob – Thanks for the information on the trolley museum – when I’m next in Toronto I really would like to try and make it – so nearer the time (could be next summer) I’ll flag it up. I prefer a public transit link but not always so easy in North America I appreciate. I know the 401 as my uncle used to live very close to it in Toronto (near where they have just built the new TTC subway extension) he has recently moved to Don Mills area however. I'm also thinking about a trip on Ontario Northland which looks like an interesting ride to me - anyone else done that?
I enjoyed your post on the Ontario and Quebec – most interesting for sure.
Here is a couple of links you in particular will be interested in Rob, but hope others enjoy too. This streetcar (or Tram) museum is not too far from me and we try to make a visit about once per year. The street car restorations are to the highest standard and a ride in one is absolutely top notch. You can see photos from the fleet index which shows how well done they are – some restored from total wrecks that have been used as garden sheds and the like for 60+ years – a real credit to the staff and volunteers there who do the work.
http://www.tramway.co.uk/
http://www.tramway.co.uk/smx/cms/tramfleet/
Barndad – interesting feed back on the Railroadiana event – look forward to your pics. Which reminds me – not had any of those reproduction nostalgic adverts or menu bills recently – Tom you were posting some before from your collection – any chance of any more scans or text reproductions? Perhaps you are too busy with the Chaleur plans – I can feel the anticipation of the trip in your posts.
By the way, I promised the results of some research on the channel tunnel chugger cars – I prepared most of the post then deleted it myself by accident – typical bad luck but I’ll re do it and get it posted before too long!
Cheerio
DL - UK
Guten Morgen allerseits!
Wie ist jeder? Es is OKTOBERFEST! Partei wollen wir!
Cardinals imploded - Mets won! Well, it was fun while it lasted – the cream is supposed to rise to the top, eh Obviously it did! <groan>
Our Lambs of the NFL also lost, which made for an all ‘round poor sports day here in mid-continent USA.
On a brighter note – we had a fine Sunday Photo Posting Day! and about the only criticism I have is that Kalmbach is still messing with the minds of some of our guys (including my own from time-to-time!).
Excellent outpouring yesterday and hopefully we’ll get more of the same next week as our absences continue on through the month . . . . Thanx to all for your contributions with special mention to Eric for that wunnerful URL of his (made especially for us!) – to Doug for two fine montages – to Rob for not letting us down with those fine Posts ‘n Pix – to Nick for two Sunday visits capped off by another full slate of Pix and to James for participating in our Sunday event! to all!!
The rains have arrived ‘round these parts and depending on which one of our “weather birds” we listen to, I should be constructing an ark! Glad the outside work got done over the weekend, as planned . . . Sometimes we live “right.” Unfortunately, Juneau's morning trek has been delayed . . .
Comment for Rob and other curious minds: The number of “imports” on the NY team far outnumber those here in St. Louis – of the active team rosters, NY has 12 and St. Louis 4. So, the “melting pot” that New York City is known as, continues on with players from Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and Mexico on the roster along with those from the U.S.
Glad you enjoyed the Pix, Doug - and that's a sunrise in Edmonton - pretty, eh
Good to see DL kick off the activities this morning! What WON'T DO is this inability to view the Pix from Nick 'n Moi. Now that's a new one to ponder! We both use PhotoBucket, as do others - so one would deduce that if you are able to view PhotoBucket Pix from some of us, you should be able to view 'em from all of us. This just WON'T DO - hmmmmmmmmm.Have you EVER been able to view anything at all from me in the form of picutres How about the picture at the bottom of this screen of "Our" Place
Regarding my railroad advertisements that I put up from time to time - those are ads from assorted sources - some of which have copyright caveats. Therefore, I have typed them from "scratch" and have opted not to scan in the Pix. These are from my personal collection of "stuff," and not from URLs.
The Pix would most certainly enhance their attractiveness and meaning - however, "We takes what we gets!" 'round this joint. Try this URL out and let me know what you get . . . . you should see one of my Pix of VIA Rail's Canadian at Sioux Passage - Glacier Park obs dome:
http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/siberianmo/VIA%20Rail%20trips/?action=view¤t=DSC00336.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch5
Thanx, DL, for the tramway links!
A reminder that tomorrow’s “Theme for the Day!” is the Central Vermont Railway – so let’s see what we can do to provide some meaningful exchanges of info on this “Classic Trains” Thread!
Ruth comes in at 9 AM and Leon at 5 PM – so be sure to spread the wealth and make our cash registers – Tilla ‘n Cashinator – make the sounds I like to hear: KaChing, KaChing!
Boris, serve ‘em all of the “spiked” OJ they can handle!
Auf Wiedersehen!
Tom<
Good Morning Barkeep and all Present: coffee, please; round for the house; and $ for the jukebox.
The fora have been fussy this a.m., but here we are.
Note to Our ‘Steamed Proprietor. It’s a three game season for the Cards now – 2 of 3 takes it and winner goes to face the Tigers. Good movie choices as well and thanks for the pictures. Oswego? I know, desperate times call for desperate measures; you probably would have been better taking the Night Boat to Albany (LOL).
James – Thanks for pictures. Was going to mention the purpose and lineage of the B unit you included, but other posters took care of that nicely.
Barndad – Team name list has some good ones, but we’ll leave that up to the throwers extraordinaire to decide what the name will be. Bill Clouser is certainly well-remembered by us old folks. Thanks also for the ticket story. R&LHS’s publications have certainly improved. I went to mtgs when I was living in Boston area and always enjoyed myself.
DL-UK continues his comments re dining on the rails. Too bad you never had breakfast on the Pan American.
Lars – Thanks for the kind words.
Rob – All of the snow missed our folks; they live south of the Lake in ski country which, ironically, got nothing at all. Also thanks for O&Q material.
Nick – Through a glass darkly...I see figures, strange figures, weird figures...Thanks for the pictures and commentary; I especially enjoyed the M&SC item. For what it’s worth, I give higher marks to Boston and Maine, New York Central, and Wabash for F-unit colors. Santa Fe, of course, tops them all.
CV tomorrow – one of my favorites.
Work safe
Good morning , Ruth and the rest of the assembled crew. I think a #3 and the never ebding thermos of coffee today .
Tom-You guys aren't out of it yet, oh and thanks for clearing up the roster issuesI neglected to mention your photo's yesterday bad me, allow me to purchase you your beverages today for penance.I'm somehow not supprised ( wonder why ) about the odd "fora" glitches as CM3 calls them that you and DL and a few of the rest of us are still experiancing from time to time. One wonders if it's beacause this particular one is so small , and less visited. perhaps the other ones are taking up more server space and our glitches are simply a result of that.
Doug-Sounds like a neat show that you guys went to.Amazing that a stock certificate from teh airline still exists.One would have assumed that most of the original purchasers had long since used theirs to heat their homes.For that price you could have bought 4 of the original ones if the pricng numbers I had seen were correct. If those are models that guy was extremely talented. Wow to only dream of modelling that well.
James-Good show on the pictures liked them alot
DL-Thanks for the tramway museum links.Heather and I had the pleasure of meeting thier chief rail mechanic and his wife over the summer. They were down at our museum and claimed to have thoroughly enjoyed themselves which is of coarse a for us.To get to us the 401 is your best bet.When you do get down as I said let me know, we'll guide you in
CM3-Glad to hear that your family missed that freak storm.Just goes to show that weather is truly fickle.The ski slopes need to be moved to downtown Buffalo I'm glad that you enjoyed the O&Q.
Nick-A wonderfull run of snapshots form you yesterday as well. One question though, is that really a palm tree alive and well in that one picture. If it is how did you manage that in your end of the world.
Hi Tom and crew - any chance of a lecture slot today as I've prepared my Chugger Saga? Drinks are on me for anyone interested in listening. Just on the pics - yes can see Our Place at the foot of your post everytime - I assume that is your Corvette parked outside but correct me if I'm wrong.
If a story of poor decison making and shenanigans, missed opportunities and railroad tragedy is not your style leave me in the corner, for this is a LONG POST, but hope all assembled don't mind me setting it out for anyone who is interested. I re wrote this due to losing my text first time round so I hope it still makes sense. Anyway - here we are. A monday lecture slot - doesn't need to be a traditon but i feel the hospitaliy round these parts will excuse me (apologies to anyone who gets too bored!)
In this contribution I’ll refer to the VIA rail chugger cars as ‘Nightstar Stock’ – as this was the name they were built under in the UK and is used in some of the material I have dug out from various places – mostly UK govt papers on the web.
Hopefully this ‘lecture’ will be of interest to those of you who have followed the conversation Tom and I have had about riding these cars. Basically I think we agree that these are good European cars – and this is where they should be running – In Europe (UK and mainland) – where they were designed. They are clearly no great substitute for traditional North American designed and built stock – but my personal view is that if you want to ride a night or day train in Canada they are acceptable given the circumstances. Enough of the debate – lets look at the history.
Draw you chairs around, stoke up the fire - on with the talk (beware there is politics here, but I’ve tried to confine it to the actions of politicians, not my political opinion):
I promised to dig out some information because we had wondered about who took the hit when the cars were sold to VIA at a nock down price. Although they were privately owned I was sure it was the UK taxpayer that took the hit. I’m now convinced of this and what follows is why.
To start off with you have to go back to the discussion to build the Tunnel. The then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher made much of the fact that private enterprise was going to build it with no state subsidy. However, this was never realistic (and the tunnel needed high speed links either side to join the network anyway) and fairly early on it was clear the taxpayer was going to pay for those links. That decision had to be got through the UK Parliament and the way that happened (in the late 1980s I think) was to promise Members of Parliament (MPs) that the tunnel would bring benefits to all the regions and this is why they should vote to support it.
That benefit would take the form of trains running from the UK regions (inc Scotland and Wales) during the day and overnight. The state owned British Rail (BR) spelt out the details of those trains which would be a variant of the Eurostar sets that run London / Paris / Brussels (so called ‘Regional Eurostar’ sets), and a fleet of night trains with both reclining seats and sleeping cars (so called ‘Nightstar’ trains). These required heavy power requirements for the modern services aboard and would have toilets and showers in the rooms (a departure from previous British sleeper car practice where the short journey distances make having showers on board impractical in the design of sleeper cars used on other routes (the BR Mark 3 Sleeper – built in the early 1980s, prior to that the next oldest generation of UK sleeper cars were built in the 1950s and early 1960s - The BR Mark 1 Sleeper).
Orders for these cars were placed by the then state owned BR, but delays in procurement meant the cars were not really under construction until after BR as an organisation had been destroyed for sale to the private sector. The international services did not fit well in the privatised structure since they required heavy subsidy to build the high speed link to London. However, given the pro privatisation policy of the then Conservative John Major led Govt it was necessary to get a private consortium together to take that job on (it would not have looked good ideologically for the private sector to get all of BR, but the bit getting the most modern high speed link to still be owned by the state).
SO – to give the private sector the incentive to build the line all the relevant international train assets were GIVEN, as I understand it, to the private consortium (called London and Continental Rail Services or LCR) in return for a promise to build the London – Tunnel high speed link. SO THEY GOT GIVEN:
· A whole load of Eurostar high speed trains
· A load of part completed ‘nighstar’ cars and relevant locomotives
· A massive chunk of ready to develop real estate in London (the so called Kings Cross Railways Lands)
· St Pancras Station (the proposed international terminal in central London)
· Some sort of guarantee that the taxpayer could underwrite things even if things went belly up
This is the kind of risk taking investment the UK private sector like when it does a deal with government – you’d think they could not lose.
HOWEVER – the income stream was to come from hopelessly over optimistic ticket sales on the London / Paris / Brussels routes – which still lose money even now. So pretty soon the business plan went badly wrong and the high speed link looked like it might never happen.
Now, you North American students of business might think – well the investor loses their shirt – we live and learn. Not so here. The project had become something of a symbol of national prestige (after all the French link was long built using state funds and it was embarrassing that you came out of the tunnel from France at about 180mph then dropped to 60mph for the final 70 miles to London – it made the UK look like a second class nation).
By now the Labour (Tony Blair) Government were in power. They had to pick up the pieces. They renegotiated the deal to build the link and got consultants in to assess the business case for the Regional day trains – the consultants reckoned the market for regional day trains was not good (low cost airlines and the internet had entered the fray since the original 1980s BR decision to go with this), they recommended the ‘slots’ in the timetable were ‘sold’ for other uses and the regional units used for other purposes. This was seen as quite a cop out at the time as people had hoped for regional services, they knew the trains existed, and parliamentarians had been promised Regional Benefits back in the late 80s. Most of the fuss was about these services. It was relatively easy to pull out because the original BR proposal did not assume the services would require heavy subsidy – so they were not promised ‘at any cost’.
The ‘Nightstar’ services were more shadowy, only enthusiasts really knew much about them, no one had really seen them, there was no publicity for the services as yet. The decision was taken to slash these services without, as far as I can see, even a consultant’s examination of their business case. What was left of the contract was completed and they were eventually sold to VIA on the quiet (as you all know).
What follows is a selection of links and extracts from material I’ve found on the web – makes interesting reading I think. I’ve tried to extract pertinent stuff to save readers trawling the whole documents on the web, but you may want to do that for yourself.
One of the best Histories of the project I could find is here, written by John Legg circa 2000 and I’ve reproduced the text because it is clearly presented and interesting:
http://www.btinternet.com/~ucrs/ucrs/mprs/mprs212-0.html
The European sleeping car services were to be formed from a fleet of 139 cars to be leased and operated by European Night Services Ltd (ENSL). ENSL was a jointly owned by Eurostar (UK) of Britain, Deutsche Bundesbahn (DB) of Germany, Nederlandse Spoorwegen (NS) of the Netherlands and SNCF of France. Although some of the night trains were to run through Belgium, they were not one of the partners in the project.
Towards the end of 1990 an advertisement appeared asking for bid for the construction of around 200 cars for use on overnight trains between the UK and Europe via the Channel Tunnel. The outline specification for the cars called for them to be to the British Railways C3 loading gauge, be 23 metres long, be capable of running at 200 km/h (125 mph), have an 85% availability and to run a maximum of 320,000 km (199,625 miles) per year over an operating life of thirty years. The sleeping cars would have four compartments with en suite toilet and shower and eight compartments with wash basin only. The seated cars would have fifty to sixty reclining seats. The service vehicle would have a lounge area, catering facilities, staff accommodation and luggage area. The advertisement called for the first set to be delivered in December 1992. Each set would be made up of two sub-sets of six, seven or eight cars.
After several extensions to the tender expiry date at the request of British Railways, the preferred bidder for contract was announced as Metropolitan-Cammell on 4 February 1992. The contract would be for 139 cars and be worth around £110 million. The contract called for the first set to be delivered in July 1994 with the order complete in June 1995. However the official signing of the order was stopped by European Commissioner Leon Britten on the grounds that the deal between the consortium members was anticompetitive. To minimize the delay in deliver of the first set caused by the hold, Metropolitan-Cammell was allocated funds so design work could start. However these soon ran out and work stopped. After representations from the consortium members qualified approval was given on 7 July 1992 and the contract was signed. The delay in signing the contract now put the delivery of the first set in late 1994 or early 1995.
The 139 cars of the order broke down into 47 Seated Cars, 72 Sleeper Cars and 20 Service Vehicles. The cars would be formed into nine 7-car sub-sets and nine 8-car sub-sets with two Seated Cars and two Service Vehicles as spares. The Seated Cars have 50 reclining seats (12 smoking, 38 non-smoking), the Sleeper Cars have 20 beds in 10 cabins and the Service Vehicles have 15 non-smoking bench-style seats in a lounge area and a large two bed cabin suitable for wheelchairs. Of the ten cabins in the Sleeping Cars, six will have en suite shower and toilet and four with have en suite toilet and wash basin only. All cars are fully air-conditioned with power operated doors.
The projected service pattern is: London - Amsterdam via Brussels, London-Cologne via Brussels, London-Dortmund and Frankfurt via Brussels (trains will split/combine at Aix-la-Chapelle), Plymouth-Brussels (sub-set), Swansea-Paris and Glasgow to Brussels and Paris (trains will spit/combine at London Kensington Olympia with Plymouth and Swansea sub-sets). Between Glasgow, London and the Channel Tunnel the trains will be hauled by a single Class 92 electric locomotive. For the journey through the Channel Tunnel a second Class 92 will be attached to the rear of the train in case of an emergency. Once in France the Class 92 locomotives will be detached and SNCF electric locomotives will take over. The services to/from Plymouth and Swansea will be diesel hauled to/from London. In Britain the London night service trains will be maintained at North Pole International. The sets for Glasgow and Plymouth will be serviced at local facilities but the Swansea sets will have to return to North Pole International for servicing. All sets will make regular maintenance visits to North Pole International.
Off the forty-six Class 92 locomotives on order, seven will be for overnight services, thirty for freight services and nine will go to French operator SNCF. The first locomotive will be delivered in 1993.
During 1993 the proposed Cologne services are dropped from the schedule.
To provide the diesel haulage between London and Swansea and London and Plymouth twelve Class 37/5 diesel-electric locomotives are chosen for refurbishment and modification to provide the haulage. They will operate in pairs with a generator car between them to provide the HEP for the trains. They will also provide standby power when it is necessary to turn of the power on the electrified lines. They will classified as Class 37/6 with modifications including re-gearing for 145 km/k (90 mph) running, pass-through HEP connectors and control panels in the cabs to monitor and control the generator car.
During 1995 it is decided to drop Brussels as a destination for the 'beyond London' services and add a new service from Manchester. All 'beyond London' services will now be concentrated on Paris.
In April 1995 it is announced that due to problems with a sub-contractor the delivery of the first sub-sets are now six months behind schedule and services are now expected to start sometime in early 1996. It is also revealed that the infrastructure work required to run the trains to Glasgow and Manchester is behind schedule and that the HEP load may be higher than the Class 92 locomotives can provide when running on the 750V DC lines between London and the Channel Tunnel. If an assisting locomotive is required it will most probably be a Class 73/1. By late 1995 the start of service is put back to late 1996.
In early 1996 Class 37/6 37604, Class 73/1 73126 and Class 92 92018 are at Metropolitan-Cammell for compatibility testing with the cars. Initial test will be static only.
By April 1996 the project is being reported as 18-months behind schedule but it has been established that a single Class 92 will be able to handle the HEP requirement of trains on 750V DC. Three completed cars, one of each type, are sent to Vienna for climatic testing. Once the cars return in mid-May from testing the first sub-set should be complete in June 1996. The cars return in mid-May but the first sub-set is not completed until early July 1996. The first sub-set is hauled away from the factory in the early hours of 13 July 1996 by Class 37/6 locomotives 37609 and 37610 with a generator car between them. The sub-set returns to the factory on 22 July 1996. This is seven-car sub-set 1 with an additional intermediate Sleeper Car to make it eight cars.
The second sub-set is accepted for testing in mid-September 1996. This is seven-car sub-set 2 with the spare intermediate Seated Car to make it eight cars. The two sub-sets are joined and hauled to Dollands Moor by Class 37/6 locomotives 37609 and 37610 with a generator car between them for two days of testing through the Channel Tunnel. For the Channel Tunnel tests the train is top-and-tailed by Class 92 92032 and 92039.
Eurostar (UK) is taken over by London and Continental Railway (LCR) in October 1996 as a result of the British Railways privatization and an intensive review of services is started.
By April 1997 the project is now two years behind schedule and with a diminishing market and rising costs the four partners are considering cutting their losses and abandoning the project. If the project continues the earliest start date is seen as summer 1999.
With nothing for them to do sub-sets are being taken to MoD Kineton for secure storage on completion. Sub-set 3 moves on 17 April 1997 and sub-sets 5 and 4 follow on 29 May 1997 and 6 June 1997 respectively. One of the end cars on sub-set 5 is replaced by the spare for the journey.
Problems that exist are a HEP requirement so high for a fully loaded 16-car train that no SNCF locomotive currently available can handle the load on its own and will require double-heading. The only new locomotives ordered than can supply the demand on their own are the SNCF B-B 36000 'Aystrit' locomotives. However the first of these locomotives will not be available until May 1997 and delivery will only be at a rate of one per month thereafter.
With the market for the 'beyond London' services all but disappeared the partners are looking to abandon these services and expand the London services to destinations such as Basle, Zurich and Berlin. The London-Frankfurt service is also being considered for abandonment. Other changes being considered are conversion of some of the Seated Cars into couchette cars following the low take-up of seating on overnight trains in the rest of Europe.
With testing having stopped test sub-sets 1 and 2 are washed and have their tyres turned at North Pole International depot before heading to MoD Kineton on 26 June 1997 to join the others.
The cancellation of 'beyond London' services is confirmed on 9 July 1999. This follows a nine-month intensive review of services undertaken by LCR. Cancellation of the London services follows soon after and ownership of the cars reverts to Alstom (now the owner of Metropolitan-Cammell) and the complete and incomplete cars not already in secure storage are moved to secure storage, mainly at MoD Kineton.
With there now being little work left for the twelve Class 37/6 locomotives Eurostar (UK) sells six of them (37607-612) to freight operator Direct Rail Services (DRS). However they decide to retain the five generator vans and the seven Class 92 locomotives. Although Eurostar (UK) has no direct use for the Class 92 locomotives they will remain in service with freight operator EWS alongside their own thirty Class 92 locomotives and the nine owned by French operator SNCF.
ScotRail considers using some of the redundant Sleeper Cars for Anglo-Scottish sleeper services but drops the idea in favour of refurbishment of the current stock. The cars are too heavy and would require considerable work to make them compatible with existing stock. Other British and European operators have shown some interest but the weight, high HEP requirement and the need to extensively modify them to suit the prospective operator's needs has so far meant there have been no takers. Alstom is still open to any serious offers for these cars and if they can't sell them they will eventually be scrapped.
Three cars are shipped to VIA Rail for evaluation in May 2000. The cars were moved from Alstom at Washwood Heath to Newport Docks by road where they were loaded onto the MV Fairload after the new JT42-HS locomotives 67023, 67024, 67025 and 67026 for EWS had been unloaded. The MV Fairload departed Newport, UK, on 25 May 2000 and arrived Halifax, NS, on 5 June 2000. The cars shipped are Seated Car - Intermediate 61 19 20-90 029-1, Sleeper Car - Intermediate 61 19 70-90 029-0, and Service Vehicle (Intermediate) 61 19 89-90 003-4. The cars were unloaded onto Canadian National flatcars 639869, 639934 and 668214 on 6 June 2000 and moved to Montréal where they arrived at Pointe Saint-Charles on 14 June 2000.
By July 2000 Eurostar (UK) has placed the five generator vans and seven Class 92 locomotives up for sale. Domestic operator ScotRail is thought to be interested in the generator vans for use on its Anglo-Scottish sleeper services on the non-electrified line north of Edinburgh to allow more flexibility in assigning locomotives to haul these trains. ScotRail would need to make extensive electrical and mechanical modifications to make these cars compatible with the domestic sleeper cars. As EWS is already using the seven Class 92 locomotives alongside its own it is the most likely buyer for the Class 92 locomotives but is showing no interest at present.
On 15 December 2000 VIA issued a press release confirming that it has placed an order with Alsthom for the supply of the 139 'Nightstar' cars. According to the press release VIA plans to use them on additional Quebec City-Windsor Corridor trains and to enhance Toronto-Montréal, Toronto-Vancouver and Montréal-Halifax/Gaspé overnight trains.
The delivery of the cars to Canada started with five cars departing Newport, UK, on 5 February aboard the MV Jumbo Challenger. The cars arrived in Canada at Halifax, NS, on 20 February where they were loaded on 21 February onto flatcars. After inspection they were moved to Montréal by Canadian National. Once in Montréal these cars were used to develop the conversion plans for the remaining cars. The next deliveries were shipping containers loaded with all the parts from the unfinished cars.
On 12 October the MV Marinus Green of Rotterdam was in Newport Docks, Wales, UK, loading cars. Reports are there were around thirty cars on site.
INSERT ENDS
This page is the Executive Summary of the report commissioned by the UK DfT which sealed the prospects of Regional Eurostar services. The full report has plenty of stuff – but this was the basis of the decision to drop the commitment to regional through services.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_railways/documents/page/dft_railways_504359-03.hcsp
A Committee of Parliament scrutinises the executive (these committees have little in the way of ‘bite’ but are often successful in holding the Executive to account if nothing else – examined this whole issues in 1998-99 and their report is here.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/89/8902.htm
They made some hard hitting points which are reproduced here:
INSERT STARTS:
Our principal conclusions and recommendations are as follows:
(a) The regions have been cheated. The acquiescence of Members of Parliament to the Channel Tunnel Act 1987 depended on the provision of regional services. We do not understand why the Government has not conducted research into the economic and social impact on the regions both that the Channel Tunnel has had, and that regional Eurostar services would have (paragraph 3).
(b) It is apparent that there are no significant technical obstacles to operating regional Eurostar services on the West Coast Main Line and the East Coast Main Line by early 2000. All seven regional train sets could then be ready for use, the train paths are already cleared, and the necessary modifications to the infrastructure on both lines should have been completed. However, we expect those conducting the Government's review of regional Eurostar services to confirm our assessment of the matter (paragraph 15).
(i) Nevertheless, we recommend that the Government should as part of its review examine the possibility of regional Eurostar services carrying domestic as well as international passengers. In doing so, it should assess what extra revenue might be brought in by domestic passengers, how security could be maintained on the trains, and at what cost. We do not accept that the obstacles to maintaining security are insurmountable. The review should also consider the effect of competition from regional Eurostars on existing services, and the attitude of the regulatory authorities as well as the companies potentially affected (paragraph 30).
(l) We recommend that, above all, the Government's review should be conducted against the background of the promise of regional Eurostar services implicit in Section 40 of the Channel Tunnel Act 1987, and the investment of £320 million, by taxpayers across the country, already made towards providing such services. Regional Eurostars should operate, otherwise the regions will continue to be short-changed.
Rather interestingly – and surprisingly – this issue reared its head in the UK parliament as recently as July 2006 when the Conservative transport spokesman – Chris Grayling (now in Opposition) asked two questions which I have pasted below from the official record. Quite why he is asking this now – when the decisions to build them was taken when the nationalised BR was under the control of his Conservative Government is not clear! (Derek Twigg is the Government (Labour) Minister with the railways brief at the moment.
From the Hansard Record – Starts:
25 July 2006 : Column 1300W
Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport who received the revenue from the sale to Canada of Nightstar rolling stock; and if he will make a statement. [82437]
Derek Twigg: The proceeds from the sale were credited to London and Continental Railways (LCR)
Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much was spent from public funds on the manufacture of Nightstar rolling stock; and if he will make a statement. [81628]
Derek Twigg: The order for Nightstar stock was placed in 1992 by European night services, a consortium of European railway operators, which included British Rail.
The financial consequences of the decision not to proceed with Nightstar services were described by my right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions in his statement to the House of 3 June 1998.
ENDS
Finally – worth a look is the statement of 3 June 1998 mentioned above (which incidentally does not answer the question as the above suggests!) That statement was made on the occasion of the Labour Government having to renegotiate the whole contract to build the London – Tunnel high speed link after the whole LCR fiasco collapsed:
The whole statement is here:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo980603/debtext/80603-24.htm#80603-24_spmin0
It is quite lengthy so I have extracted a few key points, underlinigns and bold are my own – but follow the link if you want to read the hwole thing.
The Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Mr. John Prescott): With permission, Madam Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the channel tunnel rail link.
In March 1996, the development agreement to build the channel tunnel rail link was awarded to London and Continental Railways, known as LCR. LCR also took control of the Eurostar service. Its plan was to commence construction in late 1997. The agreement provided for a taxpayer contribution worth £1.8 billion.
When I had the chance to examine the details of the deal put in place by the previous Government, I was appalled. They took the cheapest bid based on over-optimistic forecasts of Eurostar revenue, without even commissioning their own independent forecasts--a failing we have now put right.
The Government were seriously exposed because of the small financial commitment made by the private sector. Furthermore, as a consequence of the previous Government's intention to conceal public subsidy of the channel tunnel financing, Eurostar was hampered by the requirement to pay Eurotunnel for train paths that it was not using. Even this week I was asked to find £100 million to pay for specially designed sleeper trains which do not work, have never been used, and are now lying idle in a field.
The kindest thing that I can say about this whole agreement is that it was flawed from the start. In January of this year, it almost collapsed; the company could not fulfil its contract. At that point, I was faced with a clear choice. I could have abandoned the present contract with LCR and invited new tenders--but that would have meant two years or more of delay, with all the blight and uncertainty that that would have caused. The equivalent of two thirds of the grant would have been spent on Eurostar's debts and continuing losses, with nothing to show for it. Eurostar is losing £150 million a year. If we multiply that by four or five years compensation, it is clear that I would have had to pay an amount almost equivalent to the grant for the project, but would have got nothing in return. Alternatively, I could ask the company to reconsider the financing of the project and come forward with proposals to meet all its original obligations. That was the path I chose.
I explained that LCR had requested an additional £1.2 billion of taxpayers' money, on top of the £1.8 billion already committed. That was unacceptable. I gave LCR one month to come up with new proposals, and subsequently extended that period ultimately to this week. At the end of March, LCR made an improved proposal, but still failed to meet the Government's requirements.
I realise that many hon. Members want an early start to regional services. I can assure the House that LCR remains under an obligation to provide the infrastructure for regional Eurostar services. The trains for those services are currently lying idle. I have therefore asked the consortium to review urgently the feasibility of such services, and to put proposals to me before the end of the year. I shall inform the House of the outcome of that review in due course.
The Government do not intend to offer taxpayers' support without asking for something in return--unlike the previous Administration.
As I said earlier, those extra benefits should not simply balance the additional £140 million of public subsidy. This deal should provide that, taken over the long term, LCR pays a premium to the Government. Under the original plan, the concession for that agreement was 999 years. Eurostar was privatised for ever. The parties have now agreed to reduce the concession to 90 years. In 2086, the railway and the Eurostar service will revert to public ownership, along with the channel tunnel.
There is one more point. I have negotiated a share for the Government in any savings in the construction cost. I have also negotiated a mechanism to prevent any of the parties involved from enjoying excessive windfall gains at the taxpayer's expense.
EXTRACT ENDS
In Conclusion
So here we are in 1996 – what of the future? – the high speed link to the tunnel is on schedule to start operating before too long (2007 I think), A good ten years after the French built their link for less money with less hassle.
There will be no regional services as far as I know, by day or by night, there is now only talk of how convenient St Pancras International Station will be for passengers arriving at the nearby terminus stations of Euston, Kings Cross and St Pancras (where people will have to lug their own baggage to the international trains). In all this time the budget airlines have taken a large share of the market – and built a market share that rail could have built (with overnight travel a key part of that). The only thing that keeps them at bay is the terrorist threat, it would seem (oh, and the dire experience of actually travelling with the discomfort that comes as standard with a low cost air line).
Who is to blame – I leave you to make up your mind.
Sorry for the length of the lecture – hope it was of some interest to those of you interested in these matters. For anyone who has stayed the course - drinks are on me!
DL -UK
Good Morning Captain Tom and fellow sophisticates!
With Oktoberfest well entrenched, I make my return to the Tavern by the Tracks! Ruth, a round for the gentlemen and for me, a large mug of steaming hot coffee with just a "splash" to make it interesting. And yes, I will have a #3 - over easy - if you please. Boris is that really YOU Good grief, man - I had no idea they made garments quite like THAT! <yikes>
What a circus these last several days have been with reference to trying to log onto this forum. Absolutely ridiculous and I have no idea what went wrong or how I finally managed to gain access this morning. We have been back in our mountain retreat since Thursday last and I began my attempts to connect the following morning. No luck. Just could not get my identification and password to gain acceptance. Now that I am back on board, I have found that certain pages will not load at all. Not being one to <expletive> online - I shall go out back for a moment and <vent>
There now, I do feel a bit better off . . .
We had an enjoyable visit with Lydias family and friends over the Thanksgiving holiday. Alberta is a lovely place - especially where there are mountains (my preference) and as the economy soars, social and demographic change will rapidly increase. That is a bit sad, as I am one who once the anchor has been dropped (so to speak) prefers to remain "put." Time will tell the story, as it always does.
Fortunately, I was able to view the photos from yesterday and am impressed with all of the offerings. Especially enjoyed that link provided by Sir Eric (belated welcome back, by the way!) and hope to find your "report" of the trip to Sweden on the back pages - probably sitting in one that I cannot access at the moment. <grrrrrrr> Captain Tom, those are wonderful photos of your 2002-03 rail journey across Canada. Hopefully you will provide us with more as the westward progress continues.
Never grow weary of the traction material and that from Sirs Doug and Rob is excellent, as are those Urls from Sir DL in the UK. Also, never would have guessed the interurbans were models. Now that guy KNOWS how to do it! Surely fooled me. A rather unfair question, however - and you Sir should have been tweeted for misleading us!
I have gathered that the Darts Challenge is set - although much of the background material is missing - also on those pages I cannot access, I presume. I used to engage in those activities from time to time and was a fair hand at it. Never took on challengers after I had spent time at the firing range, for by then, my concentration and steadiness of hand had been taxed to the limit. Good luck to all who are participating and I too look forward to the reports of each match.
Sir Lars, wherever you may be, I have received your e-mail (plural) and decided that by the time I read them, no reply from me was necessary. I do wish the best for you and your family and am sure that Captain Tom and the guys will keep the fires burning here for you whenever it is you find your way back.
Captain Tom, you should be just about ready to embark upon your Quebec travels. Wish you the best, in case I cannot reconnect or some other situation arises to keep me offline. I look forward to your photos and of course write up on the trip to Gaspe.
Just picked up on that rather long submission from DL in the UK, something I will surely read. However, on my screen, it appears the lines of text are too wide for the forum standards and therefore one has to go to the bottom of the post in order to move it to the right for continuation. Oh, these forums.
I seem to be experiencing some comptuer problems, or perhaps they are more with the connectivity, as I have had to reboot twice since this message was begun. Fortunately, I use my word processor program thereby eliminating the total loss otherwise experienced when things go "haywire."
Enjoy the week, gents!
BK in Alberta, Canada's beautiful high mountain country!
SPECIAL for DL in the UK
An Email is en route regarding your Post on the Nightstar (Chunnel Chuggers) . . . .
Having a bit of difficulty navigating it in present form. (Also forgive me for incorrectly referring to the cars as Nighthawk - have something else on my mind!).
Thanx for putting it all together for us - I copied it and then put it into a word processor document, where reading is far easier.
back BK!!
Tom
Guten Tag allerseits!
Ruth, take a break - I'll watch things for about an hour . . .
The monsoon season is upon us as the rains have arrived! Had a few errands to run this AM and got thoroughly drenched running in and out of the assorted places I had to visit. Accomplished some things positive, I suppose - got my annual flu shot (but now I'll come down with pneumonia! <grin>) - won a "battle" with my Dentist's billing department <yay!> - and just made it to the Post Office in time to drop off some mail other than routine.
For whatever the reason, I withheld a letter addressed to the CEO of VIA Rail regarding the situation with that ten dollar fee for mailing me my rail tix. Upon arriving home and checking the morning Email, there it was - a long awaited reply from VIA Rail's customer service. Apologies all 'round from them and a refund of the charge is underway! Must be living right these days (daze) - hope it continues through the trip up and back from Gaspe!
Great to have BK back with us and hope the Forums and/or 'puter problems are only temporary. We've just finished a long sad experience with Rob and his connectivty issues with the Forums, now you too. <arggggggggggghhhhhh> Then to add insult to injury, we find that DL cannot see some of the Pix provided by Nick 'n Moi. <double arggggggghhhhhhhh>
DL - okay, if you see the Pix of "Our" Place at the bottom of my Posts - that's a RailImages hosted site. Hmmmmmm. The way to find out is to do a "right click" on any Pix you choose - then go to "Properities" - find the URL and see what site is hosting the photo. If you cannot see anything at all from PhotoBucket - then I'd say the "issue" is between your 'puter and PhotoBucket. By the by - did that URL I provided come through for you You should have seen a Budd Park car and the Canadian VIA Rail consist.
CM3 - the night boat to Albany would have been just fine, HOWEVER, that's NOT where the "honey's" resided! <grin> Don't recall much about Oswego - after all, how much of anything can one see when the drifts are nearly as high as a two story house
The Cardinals are indeed only 2 games from the World Series - but when it's all said and done, who recalls the team that "almost" did this or that No one should ever side bet my sports picks. I never bet with my heart, and try my level best to take in all aspects of the "chances." Seems to me the Cardinals are a Jekyl 'n Hyde ball club, one just never knows which one is gonna take the field. The Mets on the other hand - well, they should be favored.
Detroit - well I'll root for them if they face off against the Mets. Why? Jim Leland, plain 'n simple. I like the guy and like what he and his coaches did for that team. Most impressive performances by those on and off the field.
Good to see ya Rob, both here and on "my other Thread!" Too bad we didn't know DL before our last Rendezvous, eh Sounds like a winnAH to me! By the by - thanx for the Keiths (you bought! <grin>)! Comments about the Forum glitches: your guess is as good as mine, Mate! This stuff is indeed a mess . . .
Noticed that the Niagara area in Ontario has experienced not only a freakish snow storm the other day, but has been without power in many places ever since. Not good. This old world is surely turning upside down insofar as the weather patterns have been concerned over recent years.
Okay - I'm off to read that Epistle from DL!
Evening all-confusion abounds it would seem--lets all hear it for those clever Kalmbach people who just couldn`t leave well enough alone.......................................................................................................................................................
What-no applause ???
Right,Leon-set the boys up with whatever whilst I backtrack a bit and catch up on what needs commenting on
back in a bit,nick
Tomorrow is Central Vermont Railway
"Theme for the Day!"
Watch for the arrival on track #1
and throughout the day . . . .
P.S. I see you out there, Nick
O.K. Leon,same again and bring on the dancing girls........No,sorry, but thats quite obviously Boris & Copperkettle in borrowed wigs and frocks....try again-just look on the board above the phone ,it`s a freecall number-under"Our Ladies,contract entertainments..."
Right.where was I:-ah yes--ROB-O&Q?-was the right of way the one that intersected with the old O.S.H line just north of the Uni. GO stop ? Weird tales:-when my dad retired from driving a London taxi,about 20 years ago it was still on the books that he was legally required to:- (A) keep a bale of hay in the trunk for the horse(s) (B) maintain an adequate supply of oil & wicks for the lamps and (C) if he required a comfort break he could urinate against the front right wheel of the vehicle,providing a policeman was holding the reins-many more where they came from....
by the way -we get palm trees in all sorts of unexpected places -something to do with the Gulf Stream I believe
ERIC-wonderful pix mate -I assume that white mach one Mustang in the 2nd pic was included as classic transport-if you are gonna have a car,thats the one to have.......R.E. `F` units on the O.N.R-the last evidence I had was ROBS pix from a few weeks ago that showed the last 3 (the cats) Caterpillar powered units on the scrap road at North Bay-I understand this is no longer current ,they may be gone now-another era ends............................
DOUG-I tried the same experiment with a slice of processed cheese,entirely failed to see a short film about the dairy industry.................................................................
Man-those pix were something else-I`ve been back for several more looks and the only give away is the last one-the perspective is too high-to be real it would have needed a helicopter as a camera platform........double plus !!!
TOM-nice choice of movies-I can see you as a bit of a Gene Hackman lookalike---(best ask Carol about that...)-fabulous set of pix,showed me some of the countryside, that Edmonton sunrise pic is a winner-can we use it for an album cover ( with due accreditation of course..)...????
JAMES-a fine set from you sir !!-those big ole` units (river grove ?) look extremely well in those colours-very businesslike a nice cab shot (although completely unfamiliar to me ) and if you want to talk pollution you should look up some pix of the last days of British steam,when maintenance had gone right out of the window --filthy dirty engines pumping out s**t all over the place-but we loved them anyway.....
DL-UK-----If you are interested in the O.N.R as a potential journey,check out the (un)official O.N.R railfan site-Mike Robin provides breathtaking pix and they are all good people who are happy to provivide advice-it`s one of my fave`s...
Allow at least 3 days for the journey-the Northlander leaves To. in the evening ,runs up to Cochrane to arrive at about 6 00 am ,change onto either the Polar Bear Express (Dome cars,luxury ,etc) during the summer or the little bear (one of the last `mixed trains` around -runs all year round,stops to switch at every siding-definately my choice....)-end up in Moosonee some time later,take pix,turn round,come back again -power is usually a pair of GP38-2`s,although they have 3 shiny new GP40-2`s to mix in...............
Nice link to Crich museum-a fine day out I`m told
As to the extended article-DEFINATIVE is the only word that occurs-a most splendid piece of trawling and netting-well done mate
CM3-Now then,lets not get all biblical-through a glass darkly-the best of the Rolling Stones (Vol 2) or-Brian`s last stand..........................................
Happy to concede the B+M red & gold had a certain panache and a great fan of both the B+M & NH McGinnis colours but..................I`m never gonna win this argument am I ???................and long may it continue--the spirit of open minded debate keeps this place healthy
Right gents,I`ve hit my quota ( I can tell because my legs have gone numb again) Leon,be so good as to show me to the door again please..theres a couple of bucks on the counter for Herr W. and a round in for the boys,speak soon chaps....
Sports Extra: Baseball Cardinals did not lose! Game was rained out . . . try again tonite.
Football Cardinals from Arizona DID lose!! Go Bears from Chicago!! (sorry, Eric)
Monday evening Epistle from Nick, which always brings a smile to the faces of the guys at the bar. Regarding the sunrise Pix taken at Edmonton’s VIA Rail station – go for it, Mate! Proper credit: from the Proprietor of “Our” Place, best cyber bar ‘n grill in the Ether! Got a kick out of that “phone number” bit – thought Boris had cleaned that off the wall by now . . . . <grin>
In giving some thought to the paint schemes (livery) of diesel locos (Fs in particular) – man oh man there are sooooooooo many, that to narrow it down to just one, rather impossible for Moi. I always thought the Santa Fe war bonnet was better looking on Alco PAs – but sure looked mighty “cool” on the Fs as well. Then of course the Canadian Pacific in the script scheme with the beaver heralds – just too “cool” for words. Don’t get me started with the great looking New Haven (McGinnis era), New York Central’s lightning bolt, etc., etc., etc. The Kansas City Southern had a great looking livery - check these out:
A great conversation starter, fer sure, fer sure!
Nick, you’re going to have to refresh my aging memory regarding this Copperkettle “stuff” – I either totally missed the orgin, or we’ve got an interloper in the kitchen. Sicne I am the Proprietor, how did this “guy” wind up on the payroll
Eric, you are correct – in my opinion there is no interest at Kalmbach to undo the mess created with these new Forum “innovations.” Regarding the trip across Canada – we’ve taken the trip in mid-May and of course in December-January and our preference is the winter. Much more pleasing scenery and only regret that there wasn’t MORE snow out west. Food Outstanding – as always. VIA Rail does it “right” aboard the Canadian. Three entrees each night – each night all three are different – 2 hour seatings – three seatings per evening meal – just a wonderful experience all ‘round in the diner.
DL – finally got through your “lecture” and must say it is quite a treatise. Had no "clue" that EuroStar is losing so much money. Also, the insights are fantastic regarding everything that took place prior to the ultimate sale of the cars.
However, I thought there would be more regarding the VIA Rail ‘end of things.’ Nevertheless, I feel thoroughly prepared for the final exam on the subject of the Nightstar (Chunnel Chugger) passenger cars! More about this subject a bit later on . . . . A five- Salute to you Sir, for your efforts!
Ruth comes in at 9 AM and Leon at 5 PM – so, belly up to the bar, boyz!
THEME for the DAY! - THEME for the DAY!
Now arriving on track #1
Railroads from Yesteryear!
Number Twenty Three
Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encylopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requiremensts. Some heralds from other sources.
Central Vermont Railway
Reporting marks
CV
Locale
Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont and Quebec
Dates of operation
1848 – 1995
Successor line
New England Central
Track gauge
4 ft 8½ in (1435 mm) (standard gauge)
Headquarters
St. Albans, Vermont
1879 map
The Central Vermont Railway (AAR reporting mark CV) was a railroad that operated in the New England states of Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New York, as well as the Canadian province of Quebec. It connected Montreal, Quebec with New London, Connecticut using a route along the shores of Lake Champlain, through the Green Mountains and along the Connecticut River valley, as well as Montreal to Boston, Massachusetts, through a connection with the Boston and Maine Railroad at White River Junction Vermont.
History
The Vermont Central Railroad was chartered October 31, 1843 to build a line across the center of Vermont, running from Burlington on Lake Champlain east to a point west of Montpelier and then southeast and south to Windsor on the Connecticut River. Construction began immediately, and the first section, from Hartford (just west of White River Junction) west to Bethel, opened on June 26, 1848. Subsequent sections opened to Roxbury September 17, 1848, Northfield October 10, 1848, Montpelier (including the branch from Montpelier Junction) June 20, 1849, Middlesex August 30, 1849,
Good Morning Barkeep and all Present; coffee, please; round for the house and $ for the jukebox.
Lovely day here – rain and wind. Weather folks say we are getting a lot of that stuff that’s been in the Gulf area and Texas.
A few comments and on to today’s theme.
Dl-UK: Thanks for all of the material you provided along with the political background. BTW, I had no problem with the forum allowing me to look at all of it.
Nick – Take your pick as to which allusion you wish to use re “through a glass...” BTW, the New Haven never had F units, despite what toy train manufacturers would have us believe.
Eric – Well, the Cardinal were ahead when I retired last evening. Then I got up this a.m. flipped on ESPN, and found that they had managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It sort of epitomizes their style. I bet Edge wishes he’d stayed in Indianapolis, although I do think you have the makings of a good quarterback, if the O line doesn’t get him killed first.
Note to our ‘steamed proprietor – we have to be optimistic which is why I made my remark about two out of three.
Now, we have the CV today. Herewith a bit of folklore. Tom mentioned Essex Jct. in his historical post.
Edward J. Phelps penned the following when he mistakenly boarded the wrong train at Essex Junction, VT.
Essex Junction was (is) on CV, approximately 25 miles south of St. Albans. A branch line ran the 7.8 miles from Burlington to Essex Junction. Shuttle trains operated between Burlington and Essex Jct. for passengers wishing to connect to main line trains. This piece of verse is best read out loud (preferably after consuming mass quantities.) The place names will probably be familiar to many of you.
The Lay of the Lost Traveler
With saddened face and battered hat
And eye that told of black despair,
On wooden bench the traveler sat,
Cursing the fate that brought him there.
“Nine hours,” he cried,” we’ve lingered here,
“With thought intent on distant homes.
“Waiting for the elusive train,
“Which, always coming, never comes;
“Till weary, worn, distressed forlorn,
“And paralyzed in every function,
“I hope in hell their souls may dwell
“Who first invented Essex Junction.”
“I’ve traveled east; I’ve traveled west
“Over mountains, valley, plan and river;
“Midst whirlwind’s wrath and tempest’s blast,
“Through railroad’s crash and steamboat’s shiver;
“And faith and courage faltered not,
“Nor strength gave way, nor hope was shaken,
“Until I reached this dismal spot;
“Of man accursed, of God forsaken!
“Where strange new forms of misery
“Assail men’s souls without compunction,
“And I hope in hell his soul may dwell
“Who first invented Essex Junction!”
“Here Boston waits for Ogdensburgh,
“And Ogdensburgh for Montreal,
“And late New York tarrieth,
“And Saratoga hindereth all!
“Form far Atlantic’s wave-swept bays,
“To Mississippi’s turbid tide,
“All accidents, mishaps, delays,
“Are gathered here and multiplied;
“Oh, fellow men, avoid this stop
“As you would plague or Peter Fink shun!
“And ling and late conductors tell
“Of trains delayed or late or slow
“Till e’en the engine’s bell
Takes up the cry, ‘No go! No go!
“Oh, let me from this hole depart,
“By any route, so’t be a lone one!”
He cried with madness in his heart,
And jumped aboard a train: the wrong one.
As he vanished in the smoke
He shouted with redoubled unction
work safe
G'day Cap'n Tom and fellow travelers at the bar!
Ruth my deAH, you are looookin' mighty goooooooood for these old sailor eyes! How 'bout one of those mugs of java with whatever 'splash' you give BK to start me off - a round of whatever the guys would like - and I'll mosey over to the Mentor Village Bakery case to pull out a few tasty treats!
'Tis I, the Larsman - remiss in appearances as of late, but here still the same. Hope all is well with everyone as my Mighty Mets March toward October Madness with Merryment! <awful> Sorry, Tom - but it will be a New York - Detroit World Series. <grin> Got a kick out of the rundown on the "mercenaries" - had we not placed two guys on the DL, there'd be TWO MORE to add (one from Cuba, the other from the Dominican Republic). Whatchagonnado, such is life in the land of milk, honey and greenbacks.
Let me add a comment or two regarding computer problems and these forums: I have been offline since Friday - but not entirely my doing. Couldn't log on - tried several times over the weekend - "no go." To compound the madness - when I tried to read that rather loooooooooooooong post by DL in the UK - simply couldn't. The width of the text far exceeded that of my computer screen. Sorrry - but I NEVER thought to copy 'n paste it to a WP docoment! <duh> (not surprised that CM3 I'm Not Shane! was able to view it - after all GOVT 'puters are top o' the line, state of the art, and leading edge! <grin> So, the beat goes one with this forum crap . . .
Cap'n Tom, my middle son has tickets to tomorrow night's game at Shea and I've been "invited"! BUT, here's the "rub" - I'm departing rather early on Thursday for a left coast flight - so I may pass on the opportunity. We'll see . . . Should be back this time next week, however, not sure right now - open ended return, which cost me dearly with the "blessed" airlines. Looks like we're headin' off in opposite directions, Tom - sure wish I was going with YOU! <groan>
Greetings to all who have kept this place "up on the page" - it means a lot to Cap'n Tom and I appreciate it as well. Kudos to DL - Eric - Rob - Doug - Nick 'n CM3 for "being there"!! Also, back to my "bookend" BK!
Nice start to the day with Cap'n Tom's offering, followed by CM3 and his poetic license!
Without further adieu, here's my "stuff" to support today's "Theme for the Day - Central Vermont Railway" . . . book covers, what else
Boris, you are indeed a sight in that get up . . . German attire and a cloven footed Cyclops, what's next
Enjoy the day one and all . . . .
Until the next time!
Lars
Good Afternoon Captain Tom and fellow sophisticates!
Ruth - where in the world is everyone Has a holiday been declared without my knowledge This place has not had a visitor since the early morning visit by Lars - and that has been quite awhile ago. Very sad to see the bar has deteriorated to this degree - at least in the daylight hours.
I finally managed to connect to this forum after trying on all three computers - two laptops and a PC. We know the internet access is working as there are no problems getting to any other site, other than this one. What an exasperating situation, as someone mentioned.
Ruth, sorry - I will have a JD on the rocks - make it a double, and put the change aside for whoever straggles in.
So, what do we have here today Yes, the "theme" is Central Vermont Railway. Wonderful prose from CM3 and a fine selection to start us off from Captain Tom! And of course, the book cover selections from Lars capped off a fine morning!
Time for me to jump right in with some photos Lydia put together and my hope is whoever browses this page finds enjoyment from them.
These photos are from a site called TheBlueComet.com and as far as Lydia could determine, there are no prohbitions against their use. So proper credit then is given!
CV St. Albans, Vermont (credit: thebluecomet.com)
CV Montpelier Junction, Vermont (credit: thebluecomet.com)
CV Roxbury, Vermont (credit: thebluecomet.com)
CV Randolph, Vermont (credit: thebluecomet.com)
CV Bethel, Vermont (credit: thebluecomet.com)
CV South Royalton, Vermont (credit: thebluecomet.com)
CV White River Junction, Vermont (credit: thebluecomet.com)
Hope to see everyone either tomorrow or Thursday - after that, we too shall be "scarce" as they say!
BK in Alberta, Canada's high mountain country!
Hi Tom and everyone, a round for the house.
Thanks for the theme of the day, which I'll get right to.
These dudes are famous to the cognoscenti, as they say in Italy Yard.
Vermont Central Railroad, Gov. Charles Paine (1799-1853) president
Vermont and Canada Railroad, Congressman John Smith (1789-1858) president
Central Vermont Railroad, Gov. J. Gregory Smith (1818-1891) president.
Central Vermont Railway, Gov. Edward C. Smith (1854-1935) president
My Dad's writing here...
"CV worked with Grand Trunk, and in the 1890's fell so far behind in freight divisions that GT aquired 2/3 stock ownership, the local Smith family holding the other 1/3. The disastrous Flood of 1927 caused the CV to go into receivership; on 7/29/29, out in the hot sun back of the depot, this Class I railroad was sold at public auction for $23 million cash and assumption of all obligations. Central Vermont Railway Company's properties were sold to the only bidder, Central Vermont Railway, Inc., 100% of whose stock was owned by CN. It has operated as a division of CN ever since, though legally and by charter, it must forever be a Vermont corporation, with legal headquarters in St. Albans. CN poured millions into upgrading since 1929; new bridges, 2-10-4 freight engines, and a complete crushed rock ballasting all the way to New London.
"A single track, non-block-signal line... 5 passenger trains each way daily, as First Class Trains; 1 Milk Train each way daily as Second Class Trains; (first and second class trains had Schedule authority, shown in the timetable); 3 heavy fast through freights each way daily, as Extras; 1 or more overflow freights each way daily, as Extras; 1 Way Freight each way daily, as Extra; and usually somewhere on the division there would be a Work Extra, ducking in and out of the nearest siding to clear everybody else.
"Putting all those trains over the Northern Division (St. Albans to White River Jct. - 117 miles) on a single track took some real railroading, with the climb over Roxbury Hill limiting a 2-10-4 to 3200 tons.
"But things got really interesting when there were extra sections on the passenger trains. One morning I saw the Montrealer run in 13 sections, on 10-minute blocks; they all cleared St. Albans in two hours 10 minutes."
New England Central map (practically the CV)
http://www.railtex.com/railmaps/NECR.htm
Ticonderoga
http://www.uvm.edu/perkins/landscape/showpic800.php?fname=Franklin/LS02316_000.jpg
Windsor
http://www.uvm.edu/perkins/landscape/showpic800.php?fname=Windsor/LS01395_000.jpg
Richford
http://www.uvm.edu/perkins/landscape/showpic800.php?fname=Franklin/LS12124_000.jpg
CV 600
http://www.cvrma.org/pictures/CentralVermont/cv600.jpg
CV 709
http://www.cvrma.org/pictures/CentralVermont/cv709.jpg
The Stranger
http://imagescn.technomuses.ca/railways/index_view.cfm?photoid=1296827531&id=49
CV 1859
http://imagescn.technomuses.ca/railways/index_view.cfm?photoid=37475508&id=55
CV 4550
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=200610111945321690.jpg
CV 4927 & 4450 at Monson, Massachusetts
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2005102010283532345.jpg
Alburg Trestle, vestige of an old bridge route over Lake Champlain
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=200402182104102869.jpg
1927 Flood
http://www.uvm.edu/perkins/landscape/showpic800.php?fname=Chittenden/LS11348_000.jpg
http://www.uvm.edu/perkins/landscape/showpic800.php?fname=Chittenden/LS03683_000.jpg
http://www.uvm.edu/perkins/landscape/showpic800.php?fname=Washington/LS06677_000.jpg
http://www.uvm.edu/perkins/landscape/showpic800.php?fname=Washington/LS11332_000.jpg
Maple syrup
http://www.uvm.edu/perkins/landscape/showpic800.php?fname=Franklin/LS00674_000.jpg
http://www.uvm.edu/perkins/landscape/showpic800.php?fname=Franklin/LS02309_000.jpg
Article
http://www.images.technomuses.ca/?en/stories/central_vermont/b/page/1#d
Mike
Good evening gentlemen all-how`s your various days been ?
A bottle for me please Leon and a round for the house as ever -first off apologia :- ROB -I inexcusably neglected to mention that fine spread of M&SC trolley shots,Likewise,BK ,I entirely failed to offer you and Lydia a home-please accept drinks on me as a token of contrition................
Right,what else has been happening....
ERIC-The British Isles are indeed blessed with a good number of narrow gauge lines,the greatest concentration is probably in mid & north Wales-well within reach of my roving lens-if they are of general interest I will dig out some of the rest of my collection and see what is usable
TOM-As ever,a spendid `theme day` offering-one of my favourite roads ( not least because of C.N. connections) located in a part of your country I think I would most likely take to quite readily (It has strong echoes of the western parts of `Merrie Olde` ) Sadly I must once again participate as an observer only-if I had anything to offer,I would willingly do so.....
R.E. the ongoing `F`unit debate,I rather think my affections are motivated by the similarity between the O.N.R green and yellow and the green with yellow lining used on the early Brit diesels ( and a fair few steamers come to that ).
The S/F warbonnet is an iconic image,recognisable the world over-it shouts USA as loudly as a balloon-stack 4-4-0 with Apaches in hot pursuit,the K.C.S unit is a fine piece and with a full matching consist would draw the eye anywhere-at risk of causing contention,my take on the C.P.R livery is that it strikes me as somewhat utilitarian-especially when compared to the sleek green/yellow & green/black of the C.N ,or indeed the eye-catching drama of the red nosed zebra stripe-The VIA blue/yellow/black works well for me (I know ROB is also a fan)...horses for courses as they say (apart from France where it`s horses for lunch,but thats another story.......)
Now-Copperkettle---amongst my recent reading was a fairly lengthy historical novel about the Aztecs in the time of Montezuma & Cortez,the character names were all virtually unpronouncable and after a few dozen pages my mind started seeing them as their phonetic equivalents ,thus Copaquetzal became Copperkettle-I made the mistake of musing on this on these pages and presumably as a result of an unusually high background level of ambient weirdness about the place,he sprang into life fully formed-since the Aztecs were a barter based culture,he has no concept of money and doesn`t require paying,he will eat almost anything
and is happy to bunk down in Boris` lair
He also seems completely unfazed by a 600 year and several thousand mile relocation and is pathetically grateful to find himself in a culture where religious observance doesn`t involve obsidian knives and human organs--also he is far less of a health hazard in the galley than our cloven hooved friend...........................what more can I say ??
CM3-A wonderful and indeed unique contribution to theme day --I can hear it with minimal accompaniment from banjo,fiddle,guitar and D/bass
R.E. New Haven `F`units,did they not have FL9`s ,or is my worn old brain playing tricks on me ??
LARS- back-seems the poets muse has caught you also-alliteration already....--a nice selection from your endless cyber-library-happy landings on your upcoming journey
BK & LYDIA-a fine selection of pix to bring the theme day to life-Montpelier looks rather stark without the train order signal blades and Roxbury has the look of a Swiss or Austrian wayside station-possibly the angle of the roof pitch-similar snow levels to contend with I would guess.
Right,Leon-another round for these good people please,I`m just popping out for a while ( a bit of skullduggery to attend to over at the 2nd class saloon-less said the better )
Take care fella`s ,speak soon
MIKE-ships in the night again-will read & absorb then get back to you
Gute Nacht allerseits!
As the saying goes, "We takes what we gets!" the outpouring for today's Theme for Day - Central Vermont Railway, when looked upon in totality, was just fine. Thanx to all for your efforts!
Nick, you asked - here's the answer:
New Haven FL9 (from: Wikipedia.com - foto credit: Phil Gengler - free use under Creative Commons)
A most interesting bit of poetry from CM3 and it surely "fit," nicely done!
Great to see the return of Lars with his "book covers" along with those fine CV station shots from BK 'n Lydia!
Mike, hard to believe that a 10-section Montrealer ran that route - but the facts don't lie, eh Also there's a bunch of great reading in that final URL!
Nick - Many thanx for the rehash on "Copperkettle"! As I read through your explanation, much of it came back - just didn't pick up on when and how he wound up in the kitchen of "Our" Place. 'Nuf said - stray dogs 'n lost souls most welcome!
Lars - hope your left coast venture works out for all concerned. Someone rather close to me in life used to say, "Everything works out for the best." I never bought into that back then, but somehow, as I've grown older - much older - there seems to be something to the adage. Miss game #6 Are you SERIOUS Go fer it, Mate - go fer it! You can snooze on the plane.
BK 'n Lydia - really enjoyed that spate of stations and hope that Mike did too. That part of this country is really great to experience and I can only imagine what it must've been like back in the peak of passenger rail travel. Ahhhhhhhhh. Nice choice folks!
Time for me to check out . . . ballgame is ON!
Hey Bossman-that FL9 pair is a classy looking act ( and nicely snapped also) glad we share a common attitude R.E lifes waifs and strays--as an added bonus,I believe he speaks fluent `Dillo ( an increasingly rare dialect.....)
Enjoy the game
P.S-note to all dart players-with the willing assistance of the Mentor Nomads M.C a little advance planning has been put in place-if at any time during our no doubt embattled retreat from the 2nd class you hear me scream " DUCK" don`t stop to think,just bite the gravel-you will thank me for it in the morning....................
best of luck to all `preferred` teams,speak soon
Hello Captain Tom and all.
What a fine day here. Leon.. I better have a french vanilla coffee, Please.
Barndad- Now adays it's going to get harder to get into a locomotive cab unless your an engineer. Before you would just need permission. Anyway. I found the picture quite interesting and thought I should post that one. So I did.
Well I'm sorry DL-UK couldn't see the pics I had posted. There might be a firewall protection problem thats causing the trouble and it might not be. Hopefully it can be sorted out.
Tom- I did participate and it's looking better. I have quite a few pictures I have taken and I want to post them with the up coming Sundays. This Thursday I will be leaving for Fargo, Moorhead for some rail action, get some pics taken also. There is also a train show going on this Sunday so I'm going to be gone untill Sunday. So I will miss this Sunday's pics day but I will be here for tomorrow's Layout pics.
Rob- Thanks for the comments on the pics. I will have some more interesting shots coming soon. Like I said earlier have some pictures from back when I took them in September and I want to post them. There on the busiest mainline here in Minnesota. Burlington Northern Santa Fe double track mainline from Fargo to Minneapolis. The trains really rip along this line. Some areas the trains are running 70+ mph. It's nuts.
Nick- I'm guessing you're from Britian.. If so I'm sure you've never seens these control stands before. These are called Desk top controls. The picture show a whole bunch of nobes and dials. The air brakes are the first to levers on the right. Locomtive being the farthest and then train brake, reverser handel and throttle.
This would be the loccomotive that the control stand came out of. Even though that control stand can be found in most GE and later EMD locomotives. This is an SD60M. The M is standard for Wide nose cab such as on the picture above. A lot of engineers don't like the control stand because its not comfortable and is hard to sit behind and control a locomotive. When you said steam was dirty...I don't dought you for one moment. I have seen some steam that has not been taken care of and it si the dirties looking thing ever. We have one down at the Museum in Duluth and it's filthy. Hasn't been worked on since 1997.
Eric- Some of the guys were woundering so it seems I beat you to the punch. But hey I learned something new. When I first saw HEP, I didn't know what it was or what it meant. So thanks for giving me that little piece of info. It just further adds to my train knowledge.
The Central Vermont!!!
Here we go.
This is the last steam Fan trip the CV had. Steam. Thats sad, the last one. This is a 2-8-4 leading a pretty good size passenger train. It looks pretty nice.
Here is a crane thats looks as if it hadn't run since the CV disappeared in 1995. It's still in good condition. Now if only it could run.
Both pictures from: www.geocities.com/.../Prairie/8799/interchg.html
There weren't any names listed for who took these.
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