James, The only thing I ask is honesty.
You will excuse me if I dont belive your story. Anyway you will be accepted for who you are, not what you want to be.
P
Special for all concerned in this continuing saga . . . .
Let's keep it off the Thread - outta the bar - and into Email.
Seems like there are some very legitimate questions from a most respected source. So, rather than bog down this Thread - move it elsewhere.
Tom
Ok, Hey did you all hear that ...........Tom is buying the next round
Guten Tag!
Leon, das Freibier - on Da Boss!
Been a rather long and somewhat frustrating day - Emails, phone calls and "stuff" here at the bar. Too much for what is supposed to be a "fun" place.
We had a fine start to the AM from Doug with his Pix (which most probably would have been far better served on Sunday Photo Posting Day!), followed by Lars 'n CM3 then DL in the UK later on. There hasn't been much to sink our collective teeth into afterwards. Pity, for therer's lots of info out there just waiting to be unleashed . . .
Red P - last time we saw you here, you made a "declaration" but didn't follow up. Hmmmmm, have to hold you to the same standards you hold others to.
Reminder: Tomorrow is "Theme for the Day! - AT&SF Railway.
Really nothing of substance to add tonite - so, I'm outta here - Monday nite football: Green Bay 'n Philadelphia. Should be a gudun . . .
siberianmo wrote: Red P - last time we saw you here, you made a "declaration" but didn't follow up. Hmmmmm, have to hold you to the same standards you hold others to. Reminder: Tomorrow is "Theme for the Day! - AT&SF Railway. Tom And what is that?
And what is that?
G-day captain Tom.
I just want to get one thing straight. I want you guys to know everything about me so that this never happens again. Ask any question that you wish. I will give you a sincere and honest answer. I just feel bad about the whole thing. But as Tom has put it, that's water over the Dam or under the bridge, how ever you want to put it. I will stick to the Grill area, and stay there untill I am old enough to come the Bar area. I still feel a bit like a .
FtwNSengineer-And honesty it will be. You can believe what ever you want. For it is a free country. You don't have to believe a word I say, All I want is the contraversy to be behind us. As long as thats behind us I will hopefully have a better time here.
Now I know that some of you guys are not to happy with me but hopefully over time you will find that I am true to my word and I will stay that way as long as I am here.
Now..Let the questions role in.
Just to start off for tomorrow here's a Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe photo.
GP30 leading the train: This is quite a lash up of locomotives. Gp30 leading, GP35, 2 more GP30s and another GP35 make this train up. Grain trains are suppose to be the hardest trains to keep control but since I have never taken one out only an engineer would beable to tell me. Maybe FtwNSengineer can tell us.
If I am not mistaken, I believe the AT&SF had the largest locomotive consists here in North America.
Last one. I think, Just by the look of it that this train is roaring right along with it's Intermodal. With an SD40 leading and 3 C boats I think he has enough power.
I am sorry that I did not quote the names who named me before on this post But I will in my next post. Just making a beginning post.
Happy railroading.
James
Hi Tom and all.
It appears that I have missed RUTH in the German costume, but you look smart LEON. I don't think I am quite ready for BORIS in der lederhosen. I hate to think what his home brew is like. I will try some of the Kimberley Mild.
NICK Great set of photos of the Canadian and the Welsh Narrow gauge.. That 4-6-0T on the WHR has got me beat at the moment, the cut out in the tank seems a bit unusual. The pic of Tal-Y-Lyn is a great photo and it is to me, sad that a lot of the trains that were loco hauled in Ireland will or are now mulitple units.
ROB I will pass on to Alan the thanks for the pics and thanks for the info on the inspection vehicle. I'm glad you are going to do Part 3 on the CP.
DOUG Thanks for the pics of those very impressive CP steam locos. You can almost hear the fantastic sound that triple header must have made. And a railroad joke as well.
LARS I think the web was having a bad day yesterday, it took a lot longer to transfer my pics on to Our Place.
Montreal is another place I have promised myself a trip to, mainly to see the ex LNER A4 Dominion of Canada in a museum in part of the city,and a trip on The Chaleur in great company would be wonderful, as you say 'wishes' at the moment but perhaps one day it could happen it would be an unforgetable trip I'm sure.
CM3 A good point on the old trackbeds in winter, it can be an interesting part of our hobby, tracing old lines, an example in the UK between Banbury and Leamington Spa there is an embankment visible from the train, this does not appear in the railway maps as it was part of the groundwork of a line that was never built in the mid 1800s. It is amazing that it has survived considering there are lines that closed in the 1960s where there is hardly any trace left.
I dont believe that I have seen a copy of the Railroad History on sale, is it just availiable in model shops? I had a look on the web but could not find it.
DL-UK good to see you back. I hope you had a great trip.
Many thanks for the info on the Great Central North and an update on the GC a Loughbourough. it is good news that the GC is making a profit, as I believe I said before at Our Place, that if the main line steam was banned from BR tracks the joined up parts of the GC would be about the only place in the UK where steam locos could run at a fast speed. About the time I posted about the GC MIKE posted some links to some great pics of the Nottingham to Rugby part of the line in its last year, also some archive shots of the GC being built.
It is sad news that Kimberley Ales is under threat, I hear from my friends over there it is again a bad time for the independant brewers, with the Youngs Wandsworth Brewery closing and someone told me that Usher's of Trowbridge was also under threat. It is like the bad old days of the 70s/80s again. If you are ever at Wolverhampton the Great Western pub not far from the station serves a great pint of Holden,s Mild.
You are so right about the Voyagers, I well remember the days of Peaks on long trains on the Cross-Countries, then the HSTs. When they first came out I could not believe only 4 or if you are lucky 5cars. What it must be like on a Summer Saturday at Birmingham New street with people, heading on holiday with their baggage to the West Country, trying to board these trains I can't imagine. We travelled on a Voyager with a reservation for a coach that did not exist, needless to say none of the seat reservation signs above the seats were working.
It must have been an unforgetable sight to have been actually there to see the last landings of the three Concordes.
TOM Glad you liked the German tank loco in Alan,s pics Sorry the post is late but I managed to delete an earlier version
I think I like the sound of the German word Freibier.
I see they had an Oktoberfest here in Jeff City Saturday, I have only just found out about it, apparently they had a Weiner Dog race and tapped a keg of German bier from the twin town in Germany.
As I shall be away for most of the Oktoberfest festivities I will post this pic of another fine German loco
PETE.
, .
Good evening Leon,I think the light up cumberbund is a bit much, but hey it's better than Boris's get upI think a classic Carlsburg in honour of Oktoberfest. Tomorrow I've got some fine Kitchener Waterloo homemade saussages of many flavours comming in to augmnet te classic German fare from the Kitchen, in fact I just saw Boris run out towards the Zepplin sheds to help grapple the H&H express in with it's culinary cargo.
Well some good and some different today. Knida glad we are all now on the same page cooler heads shall prevail
Tom- I've got a couple things cooked up for ATSF day tomorrow so hopefully it sahll be another good tuesday effort by all. I'm looking forward to CM3's efforts as they are always close to silver throttle award territory Yup the jays had not to bad of a season. I think that had all the starting pitchers satyed healthy for more of the season,we had a good chanse at snagging the wildcard. Next year should be intresting. i'm in full hockey mode now however.
Doug-Grrrreat article on the CPR's Dominion and it's Selkirk calss monsters.They were the be all and end all in big CPR steam power.
DL-Good to see you back sir ? I think we are all looking forward to your recollections of your trip to my fair country. Nice to have another voice from oevr the pond to liven up the steam and passenger chat around the ole tavern by the tracks
Pete-Your wish is my command,the final pice of the CPR puzzle is up next.Perhaops your mate Alan may be able to drop by cyberly at some point,sounds like he would fit in quite well with our kooky crowd.
Lars-Wouldn't it be grand indeed if we all could make that trip on the Chaleur,I'll have to live through the participants descriptions and pictures. It will be on Heather and my's to ride list definatly however. She's never been east of Ottawa so i need to expand her horrizons anyway. it will help with her geneological searching anyway as a good portion of her forebarers came from NFLD.
James-Hopefully all the stuff is behind. some great ATSF snaps.An encouraging sign of things to come I hope.
Rob
CLASSIC DIESLS # 33 THE CPR PASSENGER TRAINS PT 3 : POSTWAR CHANGES
The daily routine , and service of the railways changed after the war in canada much like it had in the United States.The wartorn raveged rolling stock of the railways was well run out by the time 7 years of warservice had been completed.In Canada much like the US,the airline industry was starting to come into it's own,with goverment subsidies to build bigger anbd better airports. This coupled with more govt money for highways and the lifting of gas and rubber rationing, and the ability for people to buy cars started to put preassure on the railway industry.
The CPR, which provided yeoman service to the nation during the war years, was not willing to give up it's share of the passenegr market to the other forms and embarked on a heavy reinvestment in new streamlinned passenger equipment and a wholesale swap of steam engines for modern diesel power.In 1954 the CPR ordered 173 new stainless steel sided passenegr cars from the Budd company, and on april 24, 1955 they launched the New Canadian an all Budd dlx transcontinental passenger service.
CPR described The Canadian as an exclusive and dlx all stainless streamliner, featuring ; "Two Dome cars, and a variety of sleeping arrangements: roomettes,double bedrooms,berths and more..the last car of the train will feature a rounded eneded observation room, a beverage room with a dome level above it, and a first class sleeping space made up of a large drawing room and two bedrooms. "This comes from the timetable a passenger advertismnet material of the time.
CPR's vast expendature of $40 million dollars on this equipmnet was concidered a lavish expendature of money, on what many concidereed to be a dying mode of travel.This new train operated on a tighter scheduale than any of the CPR's previous passenger name trains.It guarranteed a 71 hour 10 minute run from Montreal to Vancouver, and 50 minutes less eastbound.A hopefull Norris Crump ( CPR's then president ) was excited and hopefull that this new state of the art equipmnet would solidify the CPR's position as the, passenger choice for cross country runs in the country, and that the investment would pay for it in the yeasr ahead. Norris Crump would later concider his whole hearted support of this service to be his biggest and costliest blunder of his carreer.
However , in the summer of 1955 the optimism of the time and this new equipment was reflected in the CPR's aggressive schedualling of it's transcontinental services.Thes featured five different scheduales west of Moose Jaw. Aside from The Canadian , they also included The Dominion , the CPR / SOO Mountaineer , and two unnamed transcontinentals in each direction . Despite the CPR's heavy investment in passenger equipment in the mud 50's their financial losses continued into the 1960's.All due to the continuing decline in passenger numbers.
By 1966, all of the transcontinentals except for The Canadian had been discontinued.Most local trains were regulated to mixed status of the influx of anohter Budd product the large fleet of RDC 1,2and 3's. The Dominion was reactivated for a while in 1967 in connection with Expo67 in Montreal, after that it and many other long and mid range passenger trains came to an end.In 1970 CPR began to publically state that they wished to discontinue transcontinental passenger service completely.The public sentiment was negative to this, but even the Candian Transportation Commission was admitting that both CN and CP were in deed bleeding red ink on the passenger side of their business.This occured at the same time when the US governmnet was peicing together Amtrak from all the failing donner roads in the US that wanted to be rid of passenger service.The Canadian governmnet would do the same thing several years later. In the meantime however the CPR continued to operate, The Canadian, The Montreal to Saint John Atlantic Limited and several other secondary services.These were all partially funded by government sudsidy. The CN was still running a heavier passenger scheduale as they were still a crown corporation at the time.
The CPR took the lead in ending the flow of red ink through the formation of the new crown corporation VIA Rail. This occurred in 1976 at first the VIA timetable just listed both the available CN and CP trains keeping the equipmnet and routes of both donating RR's.In 1978 VIA officailly became a full funded crown corporation and assumed all financial and physical control over the nations pssenger rail network. Both RR's donnated the bulk of their passenger equipment to this new company, happy to finnally be out from under the money loosing proposition of rail passenger service.
AS everyone knows VIA's Canadian still lives on and still uses the vintage Budd cars.Now routed over the more convienient but less scenic CN route.Fofty yeasr later passengers still can enjoy that Park car service. Not as bad an investment as Norris Crump had thought.
Thanks for the warm welcome back people. Now you have it in stock, pint of Mild for me, and if you can get some Holden’s Mild as Pete recommends I’ll get a round in.
Just picking up a few recent points – interesting to read the history of the CPR post war passenger services, we have a lot to be grateful for for that equipment purchase decision back in the mid 50s.
Chicago Union Station – yes, very impressive. I found the lower level and main Amtrak waiting areas rather grotty and certainly uninspiring, but go up some steps into the usually deserted main hall and take a seat there – an impressive place to while away the time. Also as suggested take a walk round the outside, down one side is a very good diner – I can’t recall them name but I think it claims to the first or last eatery on Route 66. Worth a call. I took breakfast there before catching The International to Toronto a few years back. Sad that this route has now gone.
Nice to see that post about Gulf Mobile and Ohio a while back. Reminds me of one of my favourite films – In the Heat of the Night – crime, mystery, suspense, good cop bad cop routine, and a backdrop of GM&O trains – what could be better.
Picking up on Pete’s comments. Glad to see you agree with my stance on the Voyager Unit. People fighting for seats at New Street is not a pretty sight. The UK govt wants to ease this overcrowding so has plans afoot (bad ones) – No chance of Virgin stumping up money for more cars, so the plan is to curtail the routes by deleting Scottish destinations from the Cross Country Network (you’ll have to change at Manchester and Newcastle) and deleting Sussex destinations by removing Gatwick and Brighton from these services’ networks. This will mean the end of the once named Sussex Scot (now only running Brighton – Manchester anyway) and Brighton has had an ‘inter regional’ service since at least prior to 1939 – which would cease under these plans. The idea is to free up more units for the core Birmingham area parts of the route.
The complex electronic reservation system is off as often as it is on – hacks me off as there is only one table seat in the quiet coach where the seats fully align with the window – which is where I make my reservation, only to find they have messed up the IT and turned it off.
Tell me Pete, how did you find the Pendolino by comparison to the Voyager? They seem equally cramped to me. Your trip notes to Newcastle were good, but were you not en route to Stirling? – is there a part 2? Did you take the opportunity to use the GNER dining car? GNER offer the best service but they have got into financial problems and there will be cut backs – I fear for the future of those dining cars. Did you consider doing the trip to Scotland by sleeper?
You mentioned Mike’s links to a GC trip in the 60s – I was going to post that link myself as I located it a few years back – some very good pics and very nostalgic. This w/e is Large Loco w/e down on the GC with 5 promised in steam - so if I have time I might try and fit it in. Also includes live mail drops as they have the trackside apparatus there.
Kimberley Brewery (now trading under name Hardy’s and Hanson’s) situation is bad. Independent Family owners decided to sell for several 100 million to another independent Green King – they have bought out others recently and promptly closed the brewery (eg Morland from Oxfordshire is a sorry tale, one of many – like back to the bad old days of Whitbread) and word is Kimberly’s Victorian brew house will be closed by end of the year, with the ales faked at Green King in Suffolk or dropped all together.
Tom – given your comments about the Canadian Passenger RR thread I’ll post this here:
Now on to some notes about VIA. But first of all one big disappointment – due to getting a cold whilst in Canada the time allotted to go to Delston got written off – I never made this museum which several of you had highly recommended and I’m disappointed at that – I guess another trip is required. Another plan to go down to New York on the Adirondack was also scrapped due to lack of time – that would have been good – too much to do, too little time!
I took a run to and from Quebec City – so my first comments will be about Renaissance Day cars. I’d be interested what others think.
As the journey starts at the station let me start my comments there – what on earth is the story about keeping passengers off the platforms in North American large termini? Everything excludes you from the actual mode of transit – you can’t see them, and you can’t get down for boarding until the appointed time. This is weird by UK / European standards – very few stations are designed in such a way that you can’t actually see the train! Then when it comes to boarding – well – its nice to see a system fully staffed but no wonder it needs subsidy! One person at the gate to check you are in the right queue for the right track, another person at the bottom of the stairs to help you find the right car, and another on board ticket check! This is surely overkill! Is the problem that some passengers are so unfamiliar with a train that if they actually saw one they would not have a clue where to get on and how to find their seat? If they really were that foolish how did they make it to the station under there own steam in the first place?
Ren Day Cars: Some may not like this but I think they are a good European Passenger car – and that is where they should be – In Europe!! running the services they were designed for overnight under the channel and through to regional British destinations – what a tragedy they are not doing that! I like the layout and I like the way they turn the train so the seats face forward – never bother with that here. So:
PROS
3 a side (2+1) seating is spacious - 1st class standard here in UK – this shows that to get acceptable seating size for North America it is necessary to have low loadings per car though – a false economy since it must increase train lengths and thus costs, but nice to ride in.
Nice quiet interior backed up by messages asking to passengers to be quiet and considerate – no hope of that in UK where endless listening to inane cell phone talk is the order of the day – even in the so called ‘Quiet Coach’).
Smooth ride and modern feel, comfortable seats.
Nice to see the British Standard safety Kite Mark in the corner of the window – apart from the size of the car the only clue I could see to once British ownership.
CONS
Niggling little fittings like toilet door locks that are broken and remain unfixed, blinds that don’t stay up when you raise them and fiddly blind runners that interrupt the centre of the picture window.
Not enough table seats that give a more spacious feel with a good wide window. I prefer sitting at a table facing a stranger than staring at the back of another seat. And given the friendly demeanour of the average north American it is nice to chat sometimes. However, I think the tradition of coach car seating in North America is this style so I guess that is what people are used to.
A trolley service of cold food is no substitute for a decent buffet car with a few hot snacks too.
Apart from the free meal (is it any good?) I could not see why anyone would pay for VIA 1st class as the interior layout seemed the same as comfort class – are there any other reasons?
En Route:
Trip to Quebec City very scenic – crossing the St Lawrence was good (better in the Park Car Dome though!) and crossing the Quebec Bridge good too (looks like the Forth Bridge in Scotland – any connection?). Quebec Palais station is very impressive (trains sealed off from humanity again!), and I was staying near Cap Rouge where you can walk along the river shore down underneath a very impressive trestle (the roads could do with upping their paint budgets for these bridges though, I must say).
Oh, and I should mention, after arriving at Dorval Airport I was waiting at the bus interchange by Dorval Station some 30 – 40 mins after getting off the plane. Whoever organised for a triple headed CN mixed freight of some considerable length to roll by just whilst I was waiting, thanks a lot – it was a great welcome to Canada and much appreciated.
DL - UK
Good morning gents! Ich muB eine bun-bun bitte, und Folgers (mountain grown y'know ... "the richest kind" ... (remember Mrs. Olsen?)) Just stopped in briefly. Nice to seee some ATSF stuff from fireman James, and CPR stuff from Rob yesterday. Here's a little something from me:
AT&SF 841, 1959-RSD-15 Diesel-Electric Road Swithcher
American Locomotive Company (whose name changed to its acronym, Alco, in 1956) was the only steam locomotive builder to succesfully to the production of a full line of diesel-electric and passenger freight units. Alco's diesel production began with boxcabs in 1924, and continued until 1969.
Alco built 87 RSD-15s in 1956-1960. ATSF purchased 50, each with the optional low front hood whose length led to their "Alligator" nickname. ATSF 841 was sold to ore-hauler Lake Superior & Ishpeming in 1975, where ( as LS&I 2402) it gained its current paint scheme.It was sold again in 1989 to Intel Corp.'s Fox River Valley subsidiary, and later relettered for Intel's Green Bay and Western as GB&W 2407. Those roads were acquired by Wisconsin Central in 1993, but this unit was never returned to service before its donation to IRM in 1996. AT&SF 841 is the only surviving Santa Fe unit of the three remaining RSD-15's. 2400 Horsepower. Weight: 382,400 pounds.
Have a great Oktoberfest celebration ...schnell!
This simple five question test will help determine how drunk you really are. Begin by answering each of the five questions below truthfully. Then determine your score based on question answer values provided. Lastly, compare your score to the results for a final answer.1. Think about your wife. In your mind, is she: (a) the most beautiful woman alive; (b) a beautiful woman; (c) attractive; (d) ugly as sin.2. Think about your job. In your mind, is it: (a) the best job on the planet; (b) a good job; (c) a decent job; (d) the most annoying job ever.3. Try walking. What happened? Did you: (a) find it impossible to stand up; (b) fall after standing up; (c) walk fifty feet before falling flat on your face; (d) walk one thousand feet without falling.4. How did you get to the bar? I got here in: (a) my brand new chauffer-driven limo; (b) a brand new car; (c) a used car; (d) a rented, rusted, and damaged 1950 japanese import.5. What do you think of your strength? I am: (a) invincible; (b) stronger than anyone in the bar; (c) as strong as the average man; (d) a weak and pathetic being.Question answer valuesFor every question answered with an A, add ten points.For every question answered with a B, add five points.For every question answered with a C, do not change the score.For every question answered with a D, subtract five points.For every question answered with an E, add one hundred points.ResultsFor scores ranging from fifty to 135, congratulations. You're over and above the normal drunk. Generally, at least they are able to select a valid option. An e option does not even exist on this test. You should probably check yourself into a hospital for alcohol poisoning.For scores ranging from thirty-five to fifty, you had ten too many beers. If you plan on driving home, make out a will first--that is, if you can even remember your own name. Lastly, don't even think about standing up.For scores ranging from fifteen to thirty-five, you have had one too many beers. Don't drive unless you want a higher insurance rate. Standing up will probably result in injury.For scores ranging from zero to fifteen, you may want to stop drinking now. You have probably had enough beers but don't drive unless you want a ticket. If you choose to ignore the tip to stop drinking, it is not a problem; you probably still have the ability to stand up.For scores ranging from negative twenty-five to zero, you must just be getting started! I bet you don't even have one beer in you. In terms of driving, you are probably just getting out of the car and are walking to the bar this very moment.
Guten Morgen allerseits!
Wie ist jeder? Es ist Octoberfest, Partei wollen wir!
Unbelievably warm for this time of year here in mid-contient USA as the temps have topped the 90 (F) mark and are expected to do so today and tomorrow. <>ugh> Petrol up at "Collusion Corner" was $1.96 (rounded). Some might say that these past couple of days have been topsy-turvey for the Saloon by the Tracks. Not so with me, for dialogue is healthy as long as it remains civil. When it crosses the line into the personal, aspersions included – then men draw lines in the sand. Hopefully that hasn’t occurred ‘round here. We need to keep our “nucleus” in tact and I count upon those of you who were instrumental in bringing ME back here – to refrain from fracturing us any further.
Reminder for one and all: Boris will conduct ID checks of all not familiar to these premises, to ensure compliance with the County’s drinking age. Twenty one is “it” UNLESS your particular location says otherwise. Honesty IS the best policy 'round here.
Definition: Adult is in the eye of the beholder – so to speak. We all know of people who are biologically adults, but surely do not conduct themselves in that manner. However, pretending is absolutely the wrong way to go in this cyber bar ‘n grill. Referring to the words of red P . . . . . . . Anyway you will be accepted for who you are, not what you want to be.
. . . Anyway you will be accepted for who you are, not what you want to be.
Wonderful Posts from Pete, Rob, ‘n DL in the UK. Really good to see you guys show up and help to resume what the “normal” activity ‘round this tavern is supposed to be.
Hey Rob – you provided us with that 3rd CP installment on “Theme Day!” which is supposed to be AT&SF!!! What IS it they are putting in the water in Ontario these days (daze) <grin> That “list” of yours is going to wind up being quite long UNLESS you get “cracking” – take a trip – go EAST young man, go EAST!
Nice advanced "gift" from James for our "Theme" in the form of Pix.
Pete – it was great talking with you yesterday! A looooooong day for me, but having had the chance to discuss things of mutual interest made all of the difference – thanx! Just let me know WHEN you think you can get away and we’ll head up to Montreal. I know enough about the area whereby we can check out Delson, take a train trip 'n enjoy a brew or three! My bag is always "at the ready"! We also need to get moving on our trip up to Chicago and perhaps a brief get together with Doug at Union Station.
DL in the UK – Enjoyed every word of your Post and very pleased to have you amongst us! I could write a book on the Renaissance cars and my experiences – most probably the pages on the Threads I’ve hosted would be a good start! <grin>
Pretty much concur with what you’ve shared with us about the cars. They are Euro and that’s where they belong. North American rail travel, for a host of reasons and realities, is far different and smaller isn’t always the way to go over here. These “Chunnel Chuggers” are a great example of what happens when government enters into the mix – purchased to get a “good deal,” and wound up with an assortment of issues – some still not settled.
I always enjoy the ambiance of Monteral's Central Station and have picked up ont he observations you've made about the staffing. Seems to me that VIA Rail does it right - no room for error - none. Keep in mind that in the U.S. and Canada, passenger rail travel is not at all the transportation mode of choice by the majority. Although I did get a kick out of your comment regarding how did some of these people ever make it to the station without all kinds of help! As to permitting people on the platforms while waiting for the train – it’s really been that way for as long back as I can recall – but I’m referring only to the urban station and terminal settings (Grand Central Terminal – Penn Station – Toronto’s Union Station, etc.). Even as a kid back in the ‘40s, one couldn’t get down to the “tracks” in either GCT or Penn Station before boarding time. However, my grandpa always found a way while the “gate man” looked the other way! <grin> Must have had something to do with a little boy holding grandpa’s hand while wearing the “cigar band” around one of his fingers. <smile>
Theme for the Day! - Theme for the Day!
AT&SF (Santa Fe - passenger ops)
The Santa Fe operated the following named trains on regular schedules:
· The Angel: San Francisco, California — Los Angeles, California — San Diego, California
· The Angelo: San Angelo, Texas — Fort Worth, Texas (on the GC&SF)
· The Antelope: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma — Kansas City, Missouri
· Atlantic Express: Los Angeles, California — Kansas City, Missouri (this was the eastbound version of the Los Angeles Express).
· California Express: Chicago, Illinois — Kansas City, Missouri — Los Angeles, California
· California Fast Mail: Chicago, Illinois — Los Angeles, California — San Francisco, California
· California Limited: Chicago, Illinois — San Francisco, California (via Los Angeles)
· California Special: Los Angeles, California — Clovis, New Mexico
· Cavern: Clovis, New Mexico — Carlsbad, New Mexico (connected with the Scout).
· Centennial State: Denver, Colorado — Chicago, Illinois
· Central Texas Express: Sweetwater, Texas — Lubbock, Texas
· Chicagoan: Kansas City, Missouri — Chicago, Illinois (this was the eastbound version of the Kansas Cityan passenger train).
· Chicago Express: Newton, Kansas — Chicago, Illinois
· Chicago Fast Mail: San Francisco, California — Los Angeles, California — Chicago, Illinois
· Chicago-Kansas City Flyer: Chicago, Illinois — Kansas City, Missouri
· The Chief: Chicago, Illinois — Los Angeles, California
· Eastern Express: Lubbock, Texas — Amarillo, Texas (this was the eastbound version of the West Texas Express).
· El Capitan: Chicago, Illinois — Los Angeles, California
· El Pasoan: El Paso, Texas — Albuquerque, New Mexico
· El Tovar: Los Angeles, California — Chicago, Illinois (via Belen)
· Fargo Fast Mail/Express: Belen, New Mexico — Amarillo, Texas — Kansas City, Missouri — Chicago, Illinois
· Fast Fifteen: Newton, Kansas — Galveston, Texas
· Fast Mail Express: San Francisco, California (via Los Angeles) — Chicago, Illinois
· Golden Gate
Good Morning Barkeep and All Present; coffee, please; round for the house and $ for the jukebox.
DSL has favored us with an update and a travelogue with thoughtful commentary. I agree with your note about “In the Heat of the Night.” I spent more than a few years in that part of the world and the opening scenes with the GM&O train just take me back – the only thing missing is the humidity and the smell of hot vegetation and creosote. I have a lot of good memories of the GM&O. No Boris, you can put the bar towel away, I’m not having a pity party.
Pete – Thanks for the kind words re abandoned line.
Rob – CPR Part 3 – thank you.
Our ‘steamed proprietor has given us a long list of ATSF trains. The following is based on a survey of my collection of ATSF promotional materials, on-board service guides, and the Official Guide.
Remembrance of Things Past
Services on the El Capitan, San Francisco Chief, and the Super Chief
In its advertising copy the Santa Fe billed the El Capitan as “...America’s most popular economy service between Chicago and California.” The railroad assured potential passengers that they would do their “...best to make” a trip on the El Capitan “...an enjoyable travel experience.” What could the passenger expect?
The El Capitan had a hi-level diner which offered a “...fine selection of food at popular prices.” Breakfast started early and lunch was served beginning at 11:30 a.m. Dinner was “served immediately on departure from Los Angeles (7:30 p.m.) and Chicago (6:30 p.m.), at and 5:30 p.m. the next day.”
The lounge car on the El Capitan was “...a friendly meeting place for all passengers with attendants serving “...refreshments from morning to midnight.” The car also featured current magazines and newspapers and a writing desk. In the Kachina Coffee-Shop Lounge (located on the lower level of the lounge car) passengers could purchase “...coffee, milk, fruit juice, sweet rolls and sandwiches.” Service was available throughout the day “until late at night.”
A courier-nurse traveled on the El Capitan. She was an RN whose job was to “assist mothers traveling with children and any other passengers requiring her assistance.”
The El Capitan was an all-coach train. Chair car attendants were on duty to “...assist passengers with their luggage at no charge.” They would also assist passengers who needed help in operating the chair car’s leg rest seats. Pillows (50 cent rental) were available. Dressing rooms and lavatories were “...on the lower level of each chair car.” Lavatories could also be found on the upper level of the lounge car. Passenger’s luggage was carried in the lower level of each chair car. Luggage was checked and could be retrieved by the car attendant en route as needed. The Santa Fe recommended that passengers not “...store heavy luggage in racks...on the upper level of chair cars” as the racks were “...designed for personal items needed during” the trip. Although it was an all-coach train, the El Capitan featured “radio, music and train announcements throughout all cars.”
Last, the Santa Fe explained why the conductor collected passenger’s tickets. Tickets were collected to “...avoid bothering” passengers “each time there [was] a change of crews. If part of the ticket was to be returned, the passenger would get it back before reaching their destination.
Now, let’s take a look at the “San Francisco Chief.”
This train was advertised as “Sleeping Car and Chair Car Service – Chicago, Kansas City, and California.” The consist included hi-level chair cars, dining car, a big dome lounge, and 10 rtte/6 db sleepers between Chicago and Los Angeles and Chicago and Richmond. Cars were added and subtracted at Barstow depending upon their destinations.
The dining car was at the “...center of the train serving meals at popular prices.” Breakfast was at “...an early hour; Lunch 12 noon; Dinner 5:30 p.m.”
The Big Dome Lounge Car was also at the center of the train. Upper level seats were “...arranged to give an excellent view of the passing scenery. The lower level ha[d] a lounge section for refreshment service until midnight. Magazines and newspapers [were available].”
Sleeping car porters were “...anxious to make your trip pleasant and comfortable.” They provided a range of services such as handling luggage, “placing your hats in dust-free bags; shin[ing] shoes at night, and furnish[ing] pillows for daytime riding comfort. In addition, he will prepare your room for daytime or nighttime at your request, arrange refreshments or meal service in your rooms, and perform other similar services for your travel pleasure.”
Chair car attendants were on duty to “...assist passengers with their luggage at no charge.” They would also assist passengers who needed help in operating the chair car’s leg rest seats. The San Francisco Chief’s chair cars had seats equipped either with fixed headrests or adjustable headrests. Pillows (50 cent rental) were available. Passenger’s luggage was carried in the lower level of each chair car. Luggage was checked and could be retrieved by the car attendant en route as needed. The Santa Fe recommended that passengers not “...store heavy luggage in racks...on the upper level of chair cars” as the racks were “...designed for personal items needed during” the trip.
Porters and chair car attendants took car of San Francisco-bound passenger’s luggage. Their bags were tagged, unloaded at Richmond and trucked “...direct to the Santa Fe passenger terminal in downtown San Francisco to arrive when you arrive.”
Again, the Santa Fe explained why the conductor collected passenger’s tickets. Tickets were collected to “...avoid bothering” passengers “each time there [was] a change of crews. If part of the ticket was to be returned, the passenger would get it back before reaching their destination.
The “Super Chief,” of course, was the Santa Fe’s premiere train. This was listed as “All Private Room Sleeping Car Service, Chicago, Kansas City, and Los Angeles.” In the late 60’s passengers could select among 10 rtte/6 db cars; 11 double bedroom cars, or a 4 compartment/4 double bedroom/drawing room sleeper. The railroad their goal to “...make the Super Chief a train you’ll always remember providing the type of service you’ll never forget.” Each sleeper had radio and music available. Passengers if they desired could use their “...personal portable dictating machines” in their rooms.
The dining car featured “...delicious food served in the traditionally fine Santa Fe manner.” Meals could be served in passenger’s rooms for a small service charge.
The Pleasure Dome Lounge provided “...a delightful dome observation, as well as a specious main lounge and lower cocktail lounge.” Market bulletins were posted in the lounge, and the lounge car porter handled telegrams and mail service.
Passengers could consult with the steward to reserve the Super Chief’s Turquoise Room, a “...distinctive private dining room located in the Pleasure Dome car.” The Turquoise Room was designed to “...serve private parties of 6 to 10 persons.” It had to be reserved in advance for “...private dining parties at night, or private cocktail parties in the afternoon.”
The Super Chief also carried a courier nurse.
Now as Monty Python would say, for something completely different. This is an old one, but is still good.
An elderly man in Louisiana had owned a farm for several years.
He had a large pond in the back. It was properly shaped for swimming, so he fixed it up nice -- picnic tables, horseshoe courts, and some apple and peach trees.
One evening the old farmer decided to go down to the pond, as he hadn't been there for a while, and look it over.
He grabbed a five gallon bucket to bring back some fruit. As he neared the pond, he heard voices shouting and laughing with glee. As he came closer he saw it was a bunch of young women skinny-dipping in his pond.
He made the women aware of his presence and they all went to the deep end. One of the women shouted to him, "We're not coming out until you leave!"
The old man frowned, "I didn't come down here to watch you ladies swim naked or make you get out of the pond naked."
Holding the bucket up he said, "I'm here to feed the alligator."
Moral: Some old men can still think fast.
Work safe
THEME FOR THE DAY THEME FOR THE DAY THEME FOR THE DAY
Time is short before I head out to work , so I'll save the comments on the sofar fine outpouring till this evennings return.
CLASSICS # 34 THE FRED HARVEY STORY
Well what is to say about the ATSF'S long passenegre history without mentioning, the man who pioneered good food service and good food for the travelling public.Before Fred Harvey's arrival on the scene, railroad food service was abysmal at best.All food was served at the depots and trains would stop for ten minutes, with passenegers paying 50 cents in advance for the questionable lunch or supper of old bacon, canned beans , eggs , and those heavy leadlike hardtack biscuits. It was said that the raod houses were often inleague with the train crews and that as soon as this "fare" was served the conductor would call all aboard and the passenegers would scramble for the train leaving most of the food uneaten.The roadhouse woyuld then collect the remains and serve it to the next train load,with the trian crews paid off at 10 cents a passenger !
Enter Fred Harvey, he came over from england in 1853 with the dreams of satrting a restaurant. His first was opened with a partner in 1859 in St louis the then bustling gateway to teh west.Unfortunatly in 1861 his business partner absconded with the all the restaurant funds to the south to help fund the Cofederacie's war effort.
So in 1862 Harvey joined the Mississippi River packet line which ran to St Joseph. Harvey was hired on as a distributing clerk in the St Joseph mailroom,then later as a postal worker on the mailcars for the Hannibal & St Joseph Railroad, one of the early pioneer roads which was notable refered to as the Horrible Slow & Jolting.This was his first taste of the state of the railway food industry.
In 1865 Harvey was the general western agent for the North Missouri River Railroad and got back into the food industry with his new partner Jeff Rice with each openeing restaurants in Hugo and Wallace.After a few months the men separated company dividing up the profits. Harvey then went to the Burlington railroadwith the idea to provide good food and good service to the passenegers.But the Burlington was not interested !
Harvey approached Charles Morse the superintendant of the ATSF,whom he had known from his stint at the Burlington.Morse also appreciated fine dinning and the two of them pursuadede WS Strong the ATSF's general manager at the time to give Harvey's ideas a try.Thus the first harvey House was openned in Topeka, Kansas.
Harvey purchased the small restaurant in the old Topeka depot,closed it down for two days and scrubbed it down, then got new high quality table cloths, napkins and polished silver. The santa Fe supplied the materials and suplpies for the venture on a handshake deal,which was the only kind of deal Harvey usually made as he believed in te gentlemans code.Within a few weeks this eating house was doing capacity business and the ATSF agreed to expand the exparamnet in 1877 and bought a rundown hotel in Florance.Harvey ordered silver and china from Sheffield in england and new first rate rtable linnens from Ireland.A Chicago chef was brought in and this small town of 100 had this huge railway restaurant of it's own all becayuse iof it's location alomng the ATSF As the yeas went by these harvey houses and the famous harvey girls of plain virtue and beauty sprung up all along the line and eventually the Harvey type food was served in the roads dinning cars as well. Even during the depression no skimping was allowed harvey's food and quality was to remain high.
The Harvey Girls even inspired a Judy garland movie "The Harvey Girls"By the time 1943 rolled around the Harvey company s was serving over 30,000,000 meals to passengers and troops on the ATSF system. After the war the service started to diminish as people atarted to look to planes and cars instead of trains.In 1968 the Fred Harvey company was sold to Amfec out of Hawaii.Santa Fe surrendered it's passenger service to Amtrak in 1973 by which point the harvey services came to an end.Up until the time of it's sale the harvey comapny owned some of the biggest and most beautifull hotels in the Southwest.
Good day staff and customers. Can I order an afternoon tea please?
Thanks you for your observations on my bit on the Ren day cars Tom. No doubt we think alike. You only have to see the Budd Park Car to see how much better that is (and did I see it – I got the whole internal tour – rooms and all by the kind Easterly Co-ordinator on The Ocean) more of which later.
As for Montreal Gare Centrale – yes very good ambiance, and helpful info desk and ticket staff – allowed me to pick up and a new Amtrak system timetable (kept under the counter if you need one, but handed over with pleasure when asked). And, as mentioned before the decoration / wall murals are superb, and very well maintained. I guess the access issues on those main stations is all mixed up with rebuilds to make use of air rights so the platforms are gloomy as hell with the fires out – maybe that is why they’ve not wanted passengers down there for too long.
Anyway, first of all to Tom and various others (inc Timothy on the Canadian Passenger RR thread) whose little hints and tips were a real help on The Ocean Journey, ticket pickup, baggage checks etc. Knowing the score makes all the difference and put me into poll position for things like early morning and after dark dome car visits, best places for scenery, plenty of space in bedroom thanks to luggage tips, most of the journey we had front seats in the dome and it was basically thanks to you guys. Most other Easterly passengers were tourists (there was a large tour group of 20+ Australian travellers taking The Ocean Easterly as part of their longer holiday, but we left them standing when we needed to get to that Park Car). I had printed out a digest of the comments people had made to help me and it was all spot on – a big thank you.
I only let you down once, and that was by not being able to make the Delson museum., despite your encouragement. I’ll be back, as it was disappointing not to be there.
So, some of the Easterly Class stuff is spin – at Montreal the dedicated check in was only slightly more dedicated as there were large numbers in Easterly on our journey – by the time we queued for ages for no other reason than to select our meal sitting time it was time to go down on to the train (so never saw the Panorama Lounge – even though it was 90% empty when we arrived at the station at 17.00 the steward in the lounge told us Ocean passengers could not wait in there till 17.45 - when we were in the queue – and when we left the queue at was 18.15 and we went straight to board).
We had a warm and friendly welcome both from the Sleeper steward and the Easterly Learning co-ordiantor, no need for the tour of the room – all self explanatory.
So – what do I think of a Ren Sleeping Car? Well, once again a good European car that should be working in Europe.
Pro: The shower was handy and worth the small extra payment – although you need to prepare your bathroom for the dousing. Design failure not to have a sloping floor as it does not drain well.
Con: What really drove me crazy at night was the shower pipe slapping against the wall – not in our room – I predicted this and laid the thing on the floor – but in the next door room – I could hear it slapping through the wall keeping me awake until I got fed up and used the ear plugs.
Con: Air con fan is too noisy too – this is a fault on the early 1980s BR Mark 3 sleeper (built to same loading gauge of course so my bench mark comparator for this exercise). Heated panel in bathroom is not really what you want either – in fact bathroom fan could be noisier and room fan quieter!
Con: Room temp dial seemed a work of fiction – it regulated the temp but not within the range on the dial. Only when I asked steward about this did he change the temp on the car computer – said his indicator showed our room at 17 C which was too cold – he changed it and then of course it got a bit on the warm side – why not just make the dial in the room work all right?
Pros: Beds are slightly longer and wider than the BR Mk 3 mentioned above, and room is wider too with the little cupboard space – so if you think Ren stock is cramped prepare yourself for a UK Sleeper journey! However, BR Mark 3’s are better at stowage space in the smaller compartment – with more useful hooks etc available.
I’ll save my posts on The Park car till later, and my views on the Dining Car - where sadly I have some sharp comments about fairly mediocre standards (almost as bad as British standards of service I might add).
Something of interest at Montreal was the American Orient Express lined up on adjacent track, with VIA power at the Head End – ready to depart same time as us but heading west for Vancouver. Sadly efforts at a closer look were met with an officious instruction from a Porter to the effect of I should get back on my train. I have to say it looked good but when our sleeping car attendant asked if I wished I was riding it I had to say “no” – essentially I prefer a real train going to a real place for a real reason with real people on board, not a cruise. What do others think? It was also rather sad to see all the stewards (at their door posts ready for departure) looked like overseas labour. I have no ideological objection to this – people should be able to sell their labour where they can – but to me it is code for an employer who wishes to pay rock bottom wages yet still find employees who have to be prepared to answer every beck and call of their over pampered passengers. Again what do others think? I’d like someone to tell me I’m wrong and say that AOE staff are amongst the best paid in the business, but sadly I doubt it.
FILM
I’ll sign off with this link since we have discussed film earlier – in case you did not know BR had its own in house film division for about 40 years (some great titles out on DVD from the British Film Institute no less for anyone with an interest in the UK scene). An enthusiast has created this superb website dedicated to the films – hope you enjoy a look:
http://www.britishtransportfilms.co.uk/
Click on the Films listing A-Z and some of the film titles for some great film stills (Try “Blue Pullman” and “Snowdrift at Bleath Gill” for a taste – and Pete, if you want a warm up for the A4 at Delson look at the page for “Elizabethan Express”). I can’t recommend the recently re-mastered DVD’s highly enough (do they work in North America – I know video worked to a different standard?)
Good Morning Captain Tom and fellow sophisticates!
A brief return to the old haunts before we pack up and depart for the Thanksgiving holiday. My, my it appears as if things have been rather stressed in my absence. Perhaps my return will restore a bit of tranquility to this bar of adult men.
Ruth, I shall have a Crown Royal on the rocks if you please – a bit early for me, but I require the “jump start.” Thank you, and a round for the fellows!
As a departure from what should be an inclusive posting, I would like to recognize the return of DL-UK to our group and although I have not read through your latest submission, I surely will before the day comes to an end. Welcome back and it appears you had a marvelous time in Canada.
My rather infrequently checked email (e-mail or Email – which is it??) revealed some distressing and enlightening messages, but alas, none of it should have been necessary. A shame and a pity all rolled into one. I apologize for rekindling that which should remain extinguished, but I must have my say in this as well. I am after all, a trusted member of this group who has earned his “stripes” so to speak.
I have been a patron of Captain Tom’s fine establishment for more than a year. Many of those months had me off on business ventures all over the globe, primarily Europe. Upon return, I could always count on this oasis in the Ether awaiting me with good cheer, excellent reading matter and good natured interaction (for the most part!). For me, one who clearly presented the meager background I had to offer regarding trains of all stripes – real or model – the acceptance by the regular customers was heartening indeed. Whether I fit the mold or not, the overwhelming majority of those here made me feel as if my presence was important to the whole of “Our” Place and appreciated. To this day, it is the very reason why I return to this hiatus.
CMSTPP, James or whoever you may be in reality, let it be known that you will encounter those in life who will “call” that hand you are playing. When that happens, you must be ready to reveal it. There is no where to hide once the cards are on the table and it is as plain and simple as that. Whether you are indeed 18 or younger perhaps, you will learn that to frequent a place where you are either ineligible or unwelcome does not bode well for any one, especially you. You have not gotten off to the kind of beginning where acceptance will be easy. Judgments have been made and will continue on as the other guys drop by in later days. You will simply have to live with it.
Captain Tom sets the rules around here and if he says you can sit amongst us, it then becomes our individual choices to accept it or move on. It is indeed a shame that we have had this befall us – we are not a teenage hangout nor will we ever be. I would rather not hear of this business of being 18 can put you in the military, give one the right to vote and all of that. I look at it quite differently. There are people my age who should have the right to vote taken from them and there are good reasons why many should never be permitted into the military. So those criteria do not factor into my thinking. What does is found in the manner in which one conducts himself amongst others. Men KNOW when they are being conned, adolescents may not. I think what our friend red P had to offer sums it up quite nicely.
Ruth, I will be back shortly with my contribution to this Tuesday “Theme for the Day!” – Santa Fe. My, my – the place does look quite handsome in the splendor of OKTOBERFEST!
BK in Alberta, Canada’s beautiful high mountain country!
Tuesday Theme for the Day - Santa Fe Railway
Greetings once again Captain Tom and fellow sophisticates!
I give you drum heads from the Santa Fe Railway passenger trains of years gone by - classics in every sense of the meaning:
I hope to be back with more as the day progresses . . .
BK in Alberta, Canada's beautiful high mountain country!
Guten Tag allerseits!
Seems quite a bit like "old times" here at the bar with so many fine contributions to fill up the morning slot. That is most unusual, unexpected but very much appreciated, I hope, by all of YOU!
Just read through that "drunk test" again from Doug and there's quite a bit in there for some of us to think about! Good laffs, fer sure, fer sure!
Like those Santa Fe drumheads from BK - and of course, good to have you back with us. Figured you'd stop by before heading out again and I'm glad you did. Sage wisdom and advice is never wasted 'round here, and I concur - none of this should have transpired. There is a lesson in this for all of us - don't be too quick to welcome unless and until you know who you are dealing with. Then again, anyone can say anything out here in the virtual Ether . . . . makes things like trust look a bit like a fairy tale. Anyway, nice selection for our "Theme for the Day!" and we look forward to MORE . . . .
Another visit from Rob and this time something to contribute for the "theme"! Nicely done, Sir and it fits quite well within the "parameters." Fred Harvey House's were "fixtures" at many U.S. and Canadian rail terminals. HOWEVER, you really should relace that "spell check" software - "Cofederacie" really
Yet another visit from DL in the UK - better watch it, we may mistake you for a "regular" 'round this joint!
A long time back I began carrying a small spiral notebook with me for salient comments during rail and air trips. To this day, I continue with that habit which really began when I was an investigator in "my other life." Anyway, from what I've read, it surely appears as if you have a critical eye for details and an ability to have your thoughts chronicled on them.
There's quite a bit in your latest to comment on, and I'm not certain that anyone other than I has the experience of travel aboard VIA Rail's Ocean to Halifax and return - on either consist - all Budd or the Renaissance Euro's.
Let me add my as follows:
Glad the "tips" assisted you in a positive manner. That's what I had hoped.
I haven't encountered the "Learning Coordinator" and doubt that I will. That "innovation" totally turned me off to travel aboard the "new" Ocean <ugh>
Park car accommodations: We've been very fortunate to have booked our bedrooms in the Park car on more trips than I honestly can recall. We've crossed Canada four times (2 round trips) and had the Drawing Room Suite (triple bedroom) for all of those journeys. It IS the way to go! Also, bedroom D in the Park car is the largest double as it is in the Chateu series of sleepers.
Interesting comments about the "Orient Express." We had a similar experience in Vancouver as the Rocky Mountaineer was boarding directly across the platform from our arriving "Canadian" from Toronto. Everything surely appeared as "plastic" to me with the college kids all appearing to be "interested" in helping the "tourists" with this 'n that and not a one of them having enough railroad expertise to pack into a thimble. Someone mentioned, "Wouldn't it be wonderful to travel like THAT?" I had all to do to restrain my commentary - and my wife was extremely please at my self control!
Films: Mentor Village, where "Our" Place is located has a fine motion picture theatre, called the Emporium. We feature new presentations beginning each Sunday and run for the week. Check out our Sunday Photo Posting Day! to keep abreast of what's being shown! Many fine flicks from the U.S. and UK. Thanx for the URL.
Check out this URL for the Emporium's Grand Re-opening:
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/215/916297/ShowPost.aspx#916297
(scroll down to near the bottom of the page)
Finally, THANX CM3 for that summary of features for those Santa Fe "named" trains of old. What you wound up doing was providing for me the ANSWER to a question that has haunted me for decades. What WAS the train I took in 1947/48 from LA to Chicago - as a 9 or 10 year od - ALONE Well, all of these years I really never made the effort to "dig" - probably because it wasn't that imortant to me. Now that I'm "into" this Thread and "classic trains" those memories came back. What WAS that train
G'day Captain Tom and fellow travelers at the bar!
Ruth, a round if you please and I'll have a frosty cold Keiths . . . .
Some fine posts from the guys today and as Tom said, sure looks a bit like "old times" around here. I'm going to miss my "bookend" as he departs for a couple (or more) weeks away. Looks as if "The Three Horsemen" will be riding off to separate destinations this month . . . .
I'm a bit short on conversation today - so let me get right to it:
Continuing with the "Theme for the Day!" here are some books featuring the Santa Fe (passenger) Railway:
Until the next time!
Lars
Well good evening Gentlemen all-before we begin I would like to make a public apology to both TOM" border="0" /> and LARS for ill-considered and frankly insulting remarks made recently-am more than happy to take it outside and let you both have the first pop-fully deserved...........................
Moving on............Regrettably,I have no German so cannot enter into the full spirit,however I CAN order a beer in almost any language-(it`s a gift,apparently..) so:-
Leon,a round of steins of foaming golden lagers ( I would steer you all towards the big green bottles of Staropramen Prague bier in the back fridge-by chance,this was available on draught at last fridays venue (the only place I`ve ever found that does so...free to the musicians--even taking into account the $40 cab fare home I was STILL way ahead of the game-although a touch liverish on sat............................)
O.K-to business:-
CM3-glad you enjoyed the layout pix-I dont pretend it`s more than it is-just a place to run my trains.........
BK-(and LYDIA) fine research on railroads vs railways-re beatles/DECCA,according to urban myth,even Keith Richards,the ultimate hooligan, now refers to "dear old Sir Edward"when asked about the "toilet wall graffitti" album cover...........
PETE-The Bulleid in the px is "Lord Beaverbrook"-one of the "new generation" Hornby models-as bought it was a terrible runner-removal of the traction tyres on the middle drivers (which caused it to rock back and forwards ) have resulted in a smooth running loco which will happily lift 6 cars up the big bank on the layout and would almost certainly take more if the loops permitted
Enjoyed the "Scots trip" nice pix also-would be a gas to do it again with `the company`-still-who knows......
Grim news about Youngs brewery-their `Ram Rod ` bottled ale was a benchmark of my youth...........
ROB-Gotta love that VIA blue-a real class act-The only VIA unit I have in the dull ( & frankly tedious ) grey is a Walthers F40ph that I cant find an excuse to repaint............
DOUG-As ever mate,a wonderful selection of images ( and gags ! ) loved the rusty `F` units-some serious atmosphere there--also the `flying donkey` and the cat...............one of our badger sized beasts has a destructive interest in my old WEM copycat tape loop machine-As soon as it`s out,the wretched thing is diving into the machinery trying to kill it and has the gall to look hurt when aggressively discouraged
MIKE-Been there and tried the nutmeg thing-weird ***-but ( and this is important)--it`s another dry day-stay with it mate
LARS-nice stuff on the VIA routes and consists
TOM" border="0" />-have yet to see `Fierce Creatures` although it is one of the very few on my list-a great fan of Cleese/Palin etc ,as you know-can only imagine the pleasure I will derive from it......
DL-UK- Thanks for corrections R.E `pendolinos`-interesting observations of the VIA service-welcome aboard,pull up a seat ,beers are on me
JAMES:- are you still with us ?-nice pics of your layout:-wednesday is `model day `round this place-if you want to give us a rundown on your layout,I for one would be interested in hearing it-a few pix would also be welcome.....................
might have a few images myself,you never know.................
Right-note for those that have commented :-.......My pix date back over several years and several cameras-the earliest ones are taken on a `point& press` 110,the `middle era` on a slightly more sophisticated 35 mm and the most recent on a 4million pixel digi-cam,set at 2 mill-per image...........
I suspect that any clarity of image is due to living in an area where it rains almost daily,thus removing dust from the atmosphere and being on the west coast,the sea adds to the ambient light available by reflection.
Also,the subject matter is part of "The Great Little Trains of Wales"-a significant part of the tourist industry over here-these engines are preserved and operated in the great Victorian tradition-not a one of them leaves the shed in the morning without looking their very best---------also-any picture looks better on a computer screen than it does `in the flesh` so to speak--try printing one out and you will see-they look very flat by comparison
DOUG-I tried the drunks test ,as advised,-sadly I attempted to stand up whilst standing on my hands and both computer & self were damaged in the process-I trust you will forgive me if I don`t attempt to repeat the exercise.................put me down as a minus whatever-I can cope................................
take care chaps-Leon, a round for all and some weird *** for Herr Wurlitzer-White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane,Wooden ships by C.S&N and to finish off, that most sinister of triumverates-- Gimme Shelter,Midnight Rambler & Sympathy for the Devil by the Stones..........
See you all tomorrow for toy train day,
take care,be lucky,nick
Hi Tom and everyone, a round for the house.
Baseball season begins tomorrow for the Mets. Good luck Cardinals fans.
Is that you the hippie Nick?
Here's an article from Time Magazine, July 19, 1971 (www.time.com)
Fast Freight: Across the U.S. on Super C
The nation's railroads are for perennial labor disputes, failing passenger service and, in the case of giant Penn Central, spectacular bankruptcy. Yet the railroads have become increasingly good at moneymaking service, using new specialized and electronic gadgetry that would baffle Casey Jones. For a closeup view of modern railroading, Associate Keith Johnson rode cab and caboose on the world's fastest freight train, Santa Fe's premium-rate Super C, Chicago to Los Angeles. His log:
8:20 A.M., CHICAGO. "Highball, Gerty, all aboard," comes the word over the cab loudspeaker. Engineer eases the throttle open, and his huge diesel units, totaling more 10,000 h.p., growl into action. They are pulling nine cars, mostly mail loaded in truck trailers carried on 85-ft. flatcars. From the cab track seems too frail and narrow to support 1,500 tons of locomotive and load. After the train leaves the Corwith yards, the speedometer needle creeps up slowly through the flat, industrial along the Des Plaines River. Finally are thundering along at 79 m.p.h., the top speed allowed this train. There a loud beeping sound over Gerty's an Alertor, with sensors wired to cab controls, has detected that he not moved for some 20 seconds. This safety device will automatically the train if the engineer does respond.
10:30 A.M., CHILLICOTHE, ILL. The first of 17 crew changes between Chicago and Los Angeles. Gerty climbs down the side of the red, yellow and silver lead diesel unit; Engineer Bill Burk climbs up. Off again, then a stop for 20 minutes in Galesburg. A load of lumber on the local freight ahead of us has shifted dangerously, so that car must be set out on a siding. Though a fast train like Super C means less working time for the crews, Burk says he prefers handling a longer, heavier train: "It's the difference between a Sunday outing in the family sedan and driving a racing car. Here you've got a lot of power and you've got to keep the speed up."
The Super C sweeps along the Mississippi River at full speed, then slows to cross into Iowa over a combined highway-railroad bridge. At La Plata, Mo., after crossing to the eastward track to pass a slower freight also heading west, the engineer again opens the throttle fully. With so much power hauling a relatively light train, the Super C seems to reach top speed almost as fast as an automobile. The mileposts flash by, one every 45 seconds.
5 P.M., KANSAS CITY, MO. Long-haired young Brakeman George Ketner, sporting bell-bottomed jeans, says he likes working the Super C: "All you have to do is get on at the beginning and get off at the end of the run." The train pulls out past the Santa Fe's year-old Argentine sorting yard, equipped with one IBM System 360 Model 30 and two Honeywell DDP-516 computers, which have speeded up car movements through the yard by about 50%. Two delegations of Japanese railroadmen have inspected the new yard, and one print of a Santa Fe film about Argentine even has a soundtrack in Japanese.
The Super C passes through blue-stem-grass country, where herds of beef cattle are fattened for slaughter. After a red sunset over the Kansas prairie, the engineer switches on the regular headlights and a rotating white Mars light, which cuts a circular cone through the dark. The shiny tops of the distant rails reflect the jewel-like green signals, a row of beckoning beacons in the night. Engineer O.K. Stewart remembers meeting a bobcat on the tracks one night. "Those old eyes were glowing as big as baseballs when we came around the curve," he says.
6:30 A.M., BELEN, N. MEX. The caboose is no Pullman car, but it is comfortable enough with folded-down seats to sleep on, a lavatory, a small refrigerator, a water cooler and an oil stove, which serves to heat the car and warm the breakfast coffee cake. The desert dawn is bright and clear; the sun backlights the Manzano Mountains to the east. The train climbs continually to the Continental Divide crossing at Gonzales. "Back in the days of hand-fired steam locomotives, we were real glad to get here," says Ray Derksen, acting train master at Gallup. Derksen points out a hotbox detector at trackside, an infrared gadget that spots defective wheel bearings; one installation can cost as much as $50,000, but a single derailment caused by a hot box can be much more expensive.
10:55 A.M., WINSLOW, ARIZ. A tear in the metal roof of the lead trailer has orsened, so in the 25 minutes we stop here, a maintenance crew makes a quick patch. From Winslow the line climbs again to its highest point at Riordan, the 7,313-ft. Arizona Divide. On a fast train like the Super C the crews get a full day's pay for as little as 2½ hours on the railroad. The men lay over in Seligman; if they are not assigned a return run within 16 hours their pay starts again The pay is good: the average on the Albuquerque division is more than $12,000 a year, with senior engineers making $18,000 easily. Trainmaster E.L. Kidd notes that practically all of the men who run the Santa Fe come from railroading families.
3 P.M., NEEDLES, CALIF. From the River crossing, it is uphill across the Mojave Desert, hazy with heat, sand swirling beneath high purple mountains. We make a triple meet, going into a siding at 15 m.p.h. to pass a loaded 84-car coal train that is so heavy it must stick to the main line; at same time an eastward freight sweeps by on the descending grade. After Victorville it is a climb of 1,106 ft. in 19 miles to the summit of Cajon Pass, eerily shrouded in fog. We crawl along, watching for signals looming out of murk, then creep down the steep slope, air brakes hissing, to San Bernardino. Suddenly all is neon lights, freeways, gas stations and palm trees.
9:40 P.M., LOS ANGELES. We pull into the terminal at Hobart in southeastern Los Angeles, end of the 2,202-mile journey from Chicago. It has taken only 39 hours and 20 minutes, 40 minutes faster than scheduled - a trip faster than that of the Super Chief, the Santa Fe's crack passenger train. Twelve minutes after we stop, the first trailer has already been unloaded by a giant yellow straddle crane and driven away.
http://images.nypl.org/?id=68972&t=w
Arizona territory
http://www.archives.gov/research/american-west/images/030.jpg
Geronimo
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Topeka 1945
http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvn-jpgs/RVN20616.jpg
http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvn-jpgs/RVN20615.jpg
Argentine Yard, Kansas City 1943 (Jack Delano photos)
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34700/1a34716v.jpg
Westbound freight waiting for the eastbound at Ricardo, NM 1943
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34700/1a34732v.jpg
Gallup, NM
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34700/1a34728v.jpg
Mojave Desert view from the train
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34700/1a34762v.jpg
Colorado River view from the train
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34700/1a34756v.jpg
Diesel 103
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34700/1a34711v.jpg
Santa Fe ads
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http://images.nypl.org/?id=1160839&t=w
Mike
A pint of Holdens Mild please RUTH As I am in time to see you before LEON takes over.
ROB Many thanks for the part 3 on the Canadian it was a real pity that the large investment in the Budd cars did not pay out for the CP, but at least they have put in many years of good service.
Looking forward to the sausages tomorrow.
DL-UK That sure seems a backward step terminating the Cross Country trains at Manchester and Newcastle. I wonder what will happen to the through cheap tickets, will the other company allow one through ticket or will a seperate ticket be needed for each different leg of the journey. I know an ordinary expensive ticket can be bought but the 'buy in advance' cheaper tickets may be hard to come by. That is bad news of Virgin dropping the Brighton/Gatwick service. It will mean getting across London on the tube with suitcases etc for people needing to get to the Midlands North West and Scotland, although there is that service from Gatwick to Watford Junction which is allright IF there is a decent connection at Watford, still nowhere near as good as a through train. The Sussex Scot always seemed a well filled,( sometimes too much so,) train when I used to see it. For a while there was a summer Saturday train that ran from the West Midlands to Ramsgate in Kent which ran via the West Coast and Kensington which used a preserved class 55 Deltic as haulage.
As to the Pendelinos, I used to live on the West Coast route so have seen them from the start. When they were first introduced I though they were awful with the seats not lining up with the windows, and it was some times hard to find a working toilet and the smell around the toilet area was, in many cases awful,.Also the PA system seems to leave a lot to be desired with its annoying beeping sound. On my last visit the Pendelino fleet seemed to have settled down and were giving good service, although the seating arrangement leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion, also if travelling north bound nearly all the seats in the first coach face backwards which I try to avoid if at all possible. the only thing in their favour is the are certainly fast and the tilt mechanics is first rate.In my opinion they are not a patch on the MKIVs
It is sad news about Kimberley it does indeed seem as though Greene King are doing a Whitbread.
I will post the Part 2 to Stirling all being well tomorrow.
Many thanks for the Canadian trip details It was very interesting to read about the Renaissance cars in use there.
Great Santa Fe Day.
DOUG. Thanks for the Alco diesel pics. How many marks does one get if too drunk to read the test.
CM3 Great description of SF cars and the services availiable on board, it certainly was a different age, imagine trying to get your shoes cleaned on a aircraft. Enjoyed the Joke.
ROB Great piece on the Harvey Girls and Fred Harvey. I have read they have opened a restaurant in the Harvey tradition recently at Union Station Kansas City..
BK Good to see you. Great set of Santa Fe Drumheads.
LARS Another great set of bookcovers loved the one with the Alco and the F series on the cover.
TOM Thanks for the kind words.Enjoyed your post to DL-UK on the Canadian cars.
Looking through the list of the Santa Fe named trains it struck me how many called or even started at Kansas City . I wonder if the KC football team took their name from the Santa Fe train the Chief.
It is really great about Our Place that we have the knowledgeable folks who can put details to a long ago memory like CM3 has to your long ago trip on the Super Chief..
As you may have guessed at the start with asking Ruth to serve I started this much earlier and had to go out.
I have just seen your posts NICK and Mike so I will send this and have a read.
Pete.
G-day Captain Tom and those at the grill and for those that can "hear" me at the bar.
I have heard that Wednesday is layout pixs day. Well I have been doing some experiments with the layout lately. I have been working with lit scenes at night and they seem to be turning out better than I had thought Nick was woundering about my layout. It is a 20 by 10 layout featuring the Milwaukee road. There are three industries that are being served on this layout. One is a Grain elevator that is 1 foot high and 3 feet long. The other two are part of a cement plant. One for the cement hoppers and the other for packaged powdered cement being loaded into boxcars.
The last glipse of the sun is seen on the rail as dark shrouds everything. This is located at Devole Tower right outside the Diamond. A pair of U-boats are sitting aside Idleing, for helper service up the 1.00% grade just above the diamond. The Train orderboard has a red light for the next on coming train, ready for there orders. It was raining that night so the picture is more grainy than it would have been. ( This is on my layout but this turned out so well that it looks real.)
This the back of the engine shed. The rounding curve coming from the East gives it a good look. The scenery part is coming along well and will be approved upon in the times to come.
Budkarr- I understand that I have come off to a bad start and the only one to blame here is myself. I am hoping over time that you will except me as being one here. And that everything goes well.
Tom- I'd like to thank you for letting me come back. I will keep up with the theme of the day and the next exciting things to come.
I will be signing off right now but there will be more pics to come of the layout.
Three days into the 90s (F), rather humid -but all is to "break" later today! <phew> Petrol leaped to $2.18 (rounded) up at "Collusion Corner" - a jump of 22 cents and all the while the world oil barrel prices DROPPED!! Speculators are having a grand time . . . These JOs rank right down there with the other "honorable" professions of the world, such as animanl abuser, child molestor and - oh well, you get the point.
Acknowledgments go out to all who contributed to our Thread yesterday, including those who Posted after my PM departure - BK - Lars - Nick - Mike - Pete 'n James.
Today is "Toy 'n Model Trains Day!" OPTIONAL here at the Tavern by the Tracks. It's a day of the week set aside to discuss and/or provide some Pix (not an overwhelming number!) of our respective layouts or those of others - model 'n toy train manufacturers "info" most welcome.
It appears that we have "officially" added one more to the Legion of the Lost - passengerfan Al is no longer a "regular" and apparently has moved on . . . . hasn't responded to Emails - whether directly or via the Forum. Oh well . . . . was a nice ride, but he has been really gone for several months. Good fortune to you - wherever you are!
As we progress through this month, the absences will be noted - beginning with BK - followed soon by Pete - then Lars and soon thereafter, Moi. I'm not asking anyone to do a thing out of the ordinary. For those who participate - you know the way we do things - so if you wish, keep things moving. Ruth has the bar from 9 AM to 5 PM - Leon 'til CLOSING. "Whoever" wishes, may open up. And of course - the bar is CLOSED on Sundays! Breakfast - brunch - lunch at the tables 'n booths from 6 AM 'til 2 PM!!
Hope all is well with and for all of you, no matter where you are and what you may be doing!
Boris
Auf Widerseshen!
Great Railroad Bridges - #4
Used with permission from Wikipedia.com
Quebec Bridge
The Quebec bridge, with the Pierre-Laporte bridge in the background.
Carries
3 lanes of roadway1 rail line1 pedestrian walkway
Crosses
St. Lawrence River
Locale
Quebec City, Quebec, and Levis, Quebec
Maintained by
Canadian National Railway
Design
Cantilever bridge
Longest span
549 m (1,800 feet)
Total length
987 meters (3,239 feet)
Width
29 m (94 feet) wide
Opening date
December 3, 1919
Coordinates
46°44'46?N, 71°17'16?W
The Quebec Bridge in Canada crosses the lower Saint Lawrence River to the west of Quebec City, and Levis, Quebec.
The Quebec Bridge is a riveted steel truss structure and is 987 meters (3,239 feet) long, 29 m (94 feet) wide, and 104 m (340 feet) high. Cantilever arms 177 m (580 feet) long support a 195 m (640 feet) central structure, for a total span of 549 m (1800 feet), the longest cantilever bridge span in the world. It is the easternmost complete crossing of the Saint Lawrence.
The bridge accommodates three highway lanes, one rail line, and a pedestrian walkway; at one time it also carried a streetcar line. It is owned by the Canadian National Railways.
HistoryBackground
Before the Quebec Bridge was built, the only way to travel from the south shore of the St. Lawrence in Levis to the north shore at Quebec City was to take a ferry. As far back as 1852 a project for a bridge over the St. Lawrence River at Quebec was considered, and again, in 1867, 1882, and 1884.
A March 1897 article in the Quebec Morning Chronicle noted:
The bridge question has again b
Good Morning Barkeep and all Present; coffee, please; round for the house; $ for the jukebox. Cards Win! Cards Win! Can’t see any of the afternoon games so caught highlights on ESPN. Now we will see what the Mets can do against Red Sox West.
James – Thanks for layout shots
Mike – I remember the story on the Super C, and thanks for the URLs.
Lars – Book covers are appreciated as I don’t always keep up with that sort of stuff.
BK drumheads were interesting. The one with the Super Chief/El Cap together is from when the trains ran combined (usually in the “off season.”) Summer and holidays, IIRC, they ran separately.
DL-UK The association of American Railroads did a lot of films as well. Many of them are on video or DVD. Other roads such as the new Haven, NYC, and PRR also made promotional films. Oops, almost forgot the series of films done by the Boston and Maine. Anyway, one of the AAR films (deals with several track and equipment engineering subjects) features Hugh Beaumont (aka Ward Cleaver). I always wondered what he did during the day (LOL).
Our ‘steamed proprietor provided some most interesting material on the Quebec Bridge. Mohawk ironworkers are legendary.
Here’s some consist information for the GM&O since we have been talking about that road a little bit. Date for this is 1969.
Train 1-4 “The Limited”
Parlor Car (Drawing Room): Chicago-St. Louis
Diner-Lounge: Chicago-St. Louis
r/s coaches: Chicago-St. Louis
Trains 3-2 “Abraham Lincoln”
24 seat, 1 drawing room parlor car: Chicago-St. Louis
Trains 5-6 “Midnight Special”
“All through Gulf, Mobile and Ohio trains are air-conditioned and Diesel-Electric operated.”
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