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  • Member since
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  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:00 PM
Now arriving on track #1 …..
Railroads from Yesteryear! Number Nine (in two parts)

Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds from other sources.

The Coast Line/Seaboard Railways – ACL – SAL – SCL


Part I of II

Atlantic Coast Line Railroad



Locale: United States Atlantic Coast

Reporting marks: ACL

Dates of operation: 1840 – July 1, 1967

Track gauge: 4 ft 8½ in (1435 mm) (standard gauge)

Headquarters: Jacksonville, FL

There is also an Atlantic Coast Line in Cornwall, England.

The Atlantic Coast Line Railroad (AAR reporting mark ACL) was an American railroad that existed between 1898 and July 1, 1967, when it merged with the Seaboard Air Line Railroad, its long-time rival, to form the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad. The company was headquartered in Jacksonville, Florida (Wilmington, North Carolina before 1961). After several more mergers and consolidations, the former ACL is now part of CSX Transportation, also headquartered in Jacksonville.


History


1914 map

The Atlantic Coast Line Company was organized on May 29, 1889 as a holding company for a system of railroads from Richmond and Norfolk, Virginia south and southwest to Augusta, Georgia.

North Carolina

The Wilmington and Raleigh Railroad was chartered in 1835, opening in 1840 from Wilmington, North Carolina north to Weldon, where the Petersburg Railroad continued to Petersburg, Virginia. The name was changed in 1855 to the Wilmington and Weldon Railroad.

The Wilmington and Manchester Railroad was chartered in 1846 and opened in 1853 from Wilmington west to Camden Crossing, South Carolina on the South Carolina Railroad's branch to Camden. After the American Civil War, the company was reorganized in 1870 as the Wilmington, Columbia and Augusta Railroad, opening an extension west to Columbia in 1873 but never reaching Augusta, Georgia.

In 1872 the Wilmington, Columbia and Augusta Railroad leased the Wilmington and Weldon Railroad, forming a continuous line through Wilmington, which was advertised as the Atlantic Coast Line. That lease was cancelled in 1878 due to the Wilmington, Columbia and Augusta's bankruptcy; that company was sold in 1879 and reorganized in 1880 under the same name.

Over the years, the Wilmington and Weldon bought many other lines. Most notable among those was the Wilson and Fayetteville Railroad, built as a cutoff from near Wilson to the Wilmington, Columbia and Augusta at Pee Dee, South Carolina. This was chartered in South Carolina as the Florence Railroad.

South Carolina


1885 map, when it was a loose system of affiliated lines

The Northeastern Railroad was chartered in 1851 and opened in 1856 from Charleston north to the Wilmington and Manchester Railroad at Florence. The Central Railroad, connecting this line at Lane northwest to the Wilmington, Columbia and Augusta Railroad at Sumter, was chartered in 1881 and opened in 1882. From opening it was leased by both railroads in connected to.

The Atlantic Coast Line Railroad of South Carolina was formed on July 18, 1898 as a consolidation of the Wilmington, Columbia and Augusta Railroad and Northeastern Railroad with several other lines:

• The Florence Railroad was chartered in 1882, continuing the Wilson and Fayetteville Railroad from the North Carolina state line south-southwest to the Wilmington, Columbia and Augusta at Pee Dee. This was part of a shorter route avoiding Wilmington, North Carolina.
• The Cheraw and Darlington Railroad was chartered in 1849 and opened in 1853, running from Florence north via Darlington to Cheraw. The Cheraw and Darlington acquired the Cheraw and Salisbury Railroad, an extension north to Wadesboro, North Carolina, in 1892.
• The Manchester and Augusta Railroad was chartered in 1875, and built a line from Sumter southwest to Denmark. On June 30, 1899, the ACL opened a continuation west-southwest to the Charleston and Western Carolina Railway at Robbins.

The Central Railroad stayed separate, leased but not merged.

Also involved in this was the Charleston, Sumter and Northern Railroad, a failed plan to build a main line from Charleston through Sumter into North Carolina. That company went bankrupt in 1892, and the bridge over the Santee River burned down. In 1895 the ACL bought and reorganized it as the Charleston and Northern Railroad to prevent it from being used by a competitor. The short Wilson and Summerton Railroad acquired a section south of Sumter, the Manchester and Augusta Railroad obtained the southernmost section (cut from the rest by the burned bridge) and the line from Sumter northeast to Darlington, extending the M&A's line to Darlington, and the Cheraw and Darlington Railroad was assigned the rest of the line, from Darlington north to Gibson, North Carolina. All but the Wilson and Summerton became part of the ACL in 1898. That company was renamed to the Northwestern Railroad in 1899, and with help from the ACL built an extension northwest from Sumter to Camden, opened in 1901.

In August 1899 the ACL acquired a half interest in the Georgia Railroad and Banking Company, fully owned by the Louisville and Nashville Railroad since 1898. This gave the ACL access to Atlanta and Macon, Georgia via the former Manchester and Augusta Railroad and the Georgia Railroad.

By 1899 the ACL also owned the Charleston and Western Carolina Railway, running from Port Royal, South Carolina at the south orner of the state northwest into the northwest part of the state, with lines ending at Anderson, Greenville and Spartanburg.

Virginia

The Petersburg Railroad was chartered in 1830 and opened in 1833, running from Petersburg, Virginia south to Garysburg, North Carolina, from which it ran to Weldon via trackage rights over the Seaboard and Roanoke Railroad (later eliminated with a new alignment). The Richmond and Petersburg Railroad was chartered in 1836 and opened in 1838, continuing north from Petersburg to Richmond.

In March 1898, the Petersburg Railroad was merged into the Richmond and Petersburg, which was renamed to the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad of Virginia on November 21.

The Norfolk and Carolina Railroad was chartered in 1887 as the Chowan and Southern Railroad and renamed in 1889, opening in 1890 as a connection from the Wilmington and Weldon Railroad's branch to Tarboro, North Carolina northeast to Pinner's Point, Virginia, serving the Hampton Roads area.

Florida and Georgia

The Plant System was a system of railroads and steamboats in the U.S. South, founded by Florida's west coast developer Henry B. Plant. After his death in 1899, the Plant system was taken over by the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad in 1902. The original line of the system, named after its owner, Henry Plant, was the Savannah, Florida and Western Railway, running across southern Georgia.

forming the ACL by mergers and later history


1914 map of the lines through Florida

The Atlantic Coast Line Railroad was formed on April 21, 1900 as a merger of the two companies in Virginia and South Carolina, as well as the Wilmington and Weldon Railroad and Norfolk and Carolina Railroad.

In 1902 the ACL acquired the massive Plant System, stretching from Charleston, South Carolina southwest via Savannah, Georgia to Waycross, with lines branching out from there to Albany, Georgia, Montgomery, Alabama, and many points in Florida (including the main line to Tampa). The Jacksonville and Southwestern Railroad was bought July 28, 1904, running from Jacksonville, Florida southwest to Newberry. Around this time, the ACL built a new line from High Springs south to Juliette, Florida, connecting two Plant System lines and forming a shortcut around Gainesville down the west side of Florida.

The ACL bought the large Louisville and Nashville Railroad system on November 1, 1902, but kept operations separate for its entire life.

A short branch from Climax, Georgia south to Amsterdam opened in 1903.

The ACL bought the Conway Coast and Western Railroad on July 1, 1912, giving it access to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.

On October 15, 1913, the ACL acquired the Sanford and Everglades Railroad, a short line near Sanford, Florida.

The Florida Central Railroad, bought February 27, 1915, provided a spur to Fanlew, Florida.

In July 1922 the ACL acquired the Rockingham Railroad, extending the former Charleston, Sumter and Northern Railroad from Gibson, North Carolina to Rockingham.

Also in 1922 the ACL leased the Virginia and Carolina Southern Railroad, running from Fayetteville, North Carolina south to Lumberton with a spur to Elizabethtown.

The ACL acquired the Moore Haven and Clewiston Railway on July 1, 1925, and the Deep Lake Railroad, a short line from the Gulf of Mexico port of Everglades City north to Deep Lake, Florida, on December 8, 1928. These formed short parts of a new line from the main line at Haines City south to Everglades City, with a branch to Lake Harbor on Lake Okeechobee via Moore Haven and Clewiston.

Also in 1925, the ACL leased the Fort Myers Southern Railroad, which continued the line of the Florida Southern Railroad south from Fort Myers to Marco. That same year, the Tampa Southern Railroad was leased, running from Uceta Yard in eastern Tampa south via Sarasota to the Florida Southern at Fort Ogden.

In 1926 the ACL acquired the Columbia, Newberry and Laurens Railroad, running from the end of the old Wilmington, Columbia and Augusta Railroad at Columbia, South Carolina northwest to Laurens.

The ACL incorporated the Atlanta, Birmingham and Coast Railroad on November 22, 1926 as a reorganization of the Atlantic, Birmingham and Atlantic Railway. This gave the ACL lines from Waycross to Atlanta, Georgia and Birmingham, Alabama, with a branch east to Brunswick

On May 1, 1927 the ACL leased the Washington and Vandemere Railroad, extending the old Wilmington and Weldon Railroad branch to Washington southeast to Vandemere.

In 1928 the Perry Cutoff was finished, providing a new shortcut from Thomasville, Georgia via Perry, Florida to Dunnellon, Florida, with a branch to Newberry, Florida. Additionally, the old Tampa and Thonotosassa Railroad line was extended northeast from Thonotosassa to Vitis, providing a shortcut between Tampa and the newly-important west Florida line.

The ACL acquired the East Carolina Railway at some point, running south from Tarboro to Hookerton.

Seaboard Coast Line, CSX Transportation

On July 1, 1967 the ACL merged with the Seaboard Air Line Railroad, its longtime rival, to form the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad.

CSX Transportation was formed on July 1, 1986 as a renaming of the Seaboard System Railroad, which had absorbed the former Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, Louisville and Nashville Railroad and Seaboard Air Line Railroad, as well as several smaller subsidiaries. On August 31, 1987 the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway, which had absorbed the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad April 30 of that year, merged into CSX. The merger had been started in 1980 with the merger of Chessie System and Seaboard Coast Line Industries to form the CSX Corporation.

Station listing

For stations on the main line (now CSX's "A" line), see the following articles:

• Richmond and Petersburg Railroad, Richmond, Virginia to Petersburg, Virginia
• Petersburg Railroad, Petersburg to Weldon, North Carolina
• Wilmington and Weldon Railroad, Weldon to Wilson, North Carolina
• Wilson and Fayetteville Railroad, Wilson to North Carolina/South Carolina state line
• Florence Railroad, state line to Pee Dee, South Carolina
• Wilmington and Manchester Railroad, Pee Dee to Florence, South Carolina
• Northeastern Railroad, Florence to Charleston, South Carolina
• Plant System railroads:
o Ashley River Railroad, around Charleston
o Charleston and Savannah Railroad, Charleston to Savannah, Georgia
o Atlantic and Gulf Railroad, Savannah to Jesup, Georgia
o Folkston Cutoff, Jesup to Folkston, Georgia
o Waycross and Florida Railroad, Folkston to Georgia/Florida state line
o East Florida Railroad, state line to Jacksonville, Florida
o Jacksonville, Tampa and Key West Railway, Jacksonville to Sanford, Florida
o South Florida Railroad, Sanford to Tampa, Florida

References

• Railroad History Database
• Confederate Railroads
• St. Paul to Camden, Summerton to Wilson - North Western of SC

End of Part I of II


Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds from other sources.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Enjoy!

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
  • 7,214 posts
Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:00 PM
Now arriving on track #2 …..
Railroads from Yesteryear! Number Nine (in two parts)

Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds from other sources.

The Coast Line/Seaboard Railways – ACL – SAL – SCL


Part II of II


Seaboard Air Line Railroad



Locale: Florida - Virginia, United States

Reporting marks: SAL

Dates of operation: – 1967

Track gauge: 4 ft 8½ in (1435 mm) (standard gauge)


Headquarters: Richmond, VA


The Seaboard Air Line Railroad (AAR reporting mark SAL) was an American railroad that existed between the 1880s and 1967, when it merged with the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, its longtime rival, to form the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad. The company was headquartered in Richmond, Virginia.

History


1896 map with connections

The SAL main line, now mostly CSX's "S" Line, was built by the following companies:

• Richmond, Petersburg and Carolina Railroad, Richmond, Virginia to Norlina, North Carolina (the immediate predecessor of the SAL)
• Raleigh and Gaston Railroad, Norlina to Raleigh, North Carolina
• Raleigh and Augusta Air-Line Railroad, Raleigh to Hamlet, North Carolina
• Palmetto Railroad, Hamlet to Cheraw, South Carolina
• Chesterfield and Kershaw Railroad, Cheraw to Camden, South Carolina
• Predecessors of the Florida Central and Peninsular Railroad:
o South Bound Railroad, Camden to Savannah, Georgia
o Florida Central and Peninsular Railroad Northern Division, Savannah to Georgia/Florida state line
o Florida Northern Railroad, state line to Yulee, Florida
o Fernandina and Jacksonville Railroad, Yulee to Jacksonville, Florida
o Florida, Atlantic and Gulf Central Railroad, Jacksonville to Baldwin, Florida
o Florida Railroad, Baldwin (continuing north to Yulee) to Waldo, Florida
o Florida Transit and Peninsular Railroad Tampa Division, Waldo to Tampa, Florida

On July 1, 1967 the SAL merged with the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, its longtime rival, to form the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad.

Seaboard Coast Line Railroad



Locale: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia

Reporting marks: SCL

Dates of operation: 1967 – 1982

Track gauge: 4 ft 8½ in (1435 mm) (standard gauge)


Headquarters: Jacksonville, FL and Richmond, VA


The main lines of the ACL and SAL, now CSX's A and S lines.

The Seaboard Coast Line Railroad (AAR reporting mark SCL) was created July 1, 1967 as a result of the merger of the Seaboard Air Line Railroad with the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad (ACL). In 1982, The Seaboard Coast Line Railroad became Seaboard System Railroad as a result of a merger with the Louisville & Nashville Railroad (L&N). For some years prior to this, the SCL and L&N had been under the common ownership of a holding company, Seaboard Coast Line Industries (SCI), the company's railroad subsidiaries being collectively known as the Family Lines System which comprised of the L&N, SCL, Clinchfield and West Point Routes. After the 1980 merger of SCI with the Chessie System, the resulting CSX Corporation combined the Family Lines System units as the Seaboard System Railroad and later became CSX when the former Chessie units were merged into it in 1986.


Innovative SCL trains

Juice Train: a historic model of unit train competition

Juice Train is the popular name for famous unit trains of Tropicana fresh orange juice operated by railroads in the United States. In 1970, beginning on Seaboard Coast Line railroad, a mile-long Tropicana Juice Train train began carrying one million gallons of juice with one weekly round-trip from Bradenton, Florida to Kearny, New Jersey, in the New York City area.

Today operated by SCL successor CSX Transportation, CSX Juice Trains have been the focus of efficiency studies and awards as examples of how modern rail transportation can compete successfully against trucking and other modes to carry perishable products.

Auto-Train

The original Auto-Train operated on Seaboard Coast Line and Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac (RF&P) tracks. It was operated by Auto-Train Corporation, a privately-owned railroad which used its own rolling stock to provide a unique rail transportation service for both passengers and their automobiles in the United States, operating scheduled service between Lorton, Virginia (near Washington, D.C.) and Sanford, Florida, near Orlando.

The founder of Auto-Train Corporation was Eugene K. Garfield. His approach allowed families to relax en route and save the expense and unfamiliarity of a rental car on arrival. Passengers rode in either wide coach seats or private first-class sleeping compartments while their vehicles were safely carried in enclosed autoracks. The train included dining cars and meals were served.

The equipment of the Auto-Train Corporation was painted in red, white, and purple colors. The typical train was equipped with two or three General Electric U36B diesel-electric locomotives, 76' double-deck auto carriers, streamlined passenger cars, including coaches, dining cars, sleeper cars, and 85' full-dome cars, and a caboose, then an unusual sight on most passenger trains.

Auto-Train Corporation's first auto carriers were acquired used, and started life in the 1950s as a new innovation for Canadian National Railroad. The CN bi-level autorack cars had end-doors. They were huge by the standards of the time; each 75-footer could carry 8 vehicles. The cars were a big success and helped lead to the development of today's enclosed autoracks. The former CN autoracks were augmented by new tri-level versions in 1976.


auto carrier originally purchased by Auto-Train Corp. unloads from Amtrak's Auto Train in Lorton, VA in 2000. Photo courtesy of www.trainweb.com

Auto-Train Corporation's new service began operations on December 6, 1971 The service was a big hit with travelers. Before long, the ambitious entrepreneurs of Auto-Train were looking to expand into other markets. However, only the Lorton-Sanford service proved successful.

High crew costs, several spectacular accidents with the 58- to 64-car trains, and an unprofitable expansion to Louisville, Kentucky put Garfield's company into bankruptcy. Auto-Train Corporation was forced to end its services in late April, 1981.

Operating for almost 10 years, Auto-Train had developed a popular following, particularly among older travelers as it ferried passengers and their cars between Virginia and Florida.

However, no one else offered a service quite like that of Auto-Train: transport a car and its passengers together (on the same movement, at the same time) to and from vacation areas. In 1983, the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, better known as Amtrak, a federally-chartered corporation which operates most intercity passenger trains in the United States acquired Auto-Train Corporation terminals in Lorton and Sanford and some of the rolling stock, including the autoracks. Amtrak began its slightly-renamed Auto Train route service between Virginia and Florida on a 3 day per week basis after a 22 month gap, expanding it to daily trips the following year.

Today, Amtrak's Auto Train carries about 200,000 passengers and generates around $50 million in revenue annually. Operating on leased CSX Transportation tracks for the entire distance, it is considered Amtrak's best-paying train in terms of income in comparison with operating expenses.

History

The Western and Atlantic Railroad is famous for the Great Locomotive Chase, which took place on the W&A during the US Civil War in April 1862.

End of Part II of II


Used with permission from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds from other sources.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Enjoy!

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

Did you miss the previous eight[?] Click the URL:

#1: Baltimore & Ohio (B&O
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=233&TOPIC_ID=35270
#2: Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O)
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=234&TOPIC_ID=35270
#3: Pennsylvania (PRR)
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=237&TOPIC_ID=35270
#4: New York Central (NYC)
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=240&TOPIC_ID=35270
#5: New Haven (NYNH&H)
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=242&TOPIC_ID=35270
#6: Santa Fe (ATSF) (Two Parts)
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=246&TOPIC_ID=35270
#7: Southern Pacific (SP)
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=253&TOPIC_ID=35270
#8: Northern Pacific (NP)
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=259&TOPIC_ID=35270
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: northeast U.S.
  • 1,225 posts
Posted by LoveDomes on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:02 PM
Good Day Tom and Gents wherever you happen to be!

Rather empty today, far cry from yesterday, huh[?] What a difference a day makes – so the song goes.[swg]

Ok – I saw that Doug sent you an email, so all is set for Monday coming. Another Bash! do you think this place can recover in time to host another[?][swg]

What a day we had and night too. Probably some material for the next Gazette and then some! [;)]

The news from here is that everything appears to be over and done with reference to the fiasco we’ve experienced these past weeks. Basement wall has been repaired and we have all sorts of assurances that it will hold out the water. My thinking says many a ship owner heard similar lauding comments from ship builders. Titanic comes to mind!

Mail delivery today had another certified letter from our former insurance company informing us that we have only two weeks to “comply” with their earlier “request” or they will cancel our policy! Now that tickles me – can you believe these absolute idiots[?] We dropped them, notified them, and are covered by some other outfit and they still think we give a . . . rat’s patoot comes to mind![swg] If one were to look up “stupid” in the dictionary, I think you’d find the name of this insurance company right up front![tdn]

So, we expect that life will return to normal. The wife has “plans” for me to “do this & that” now that the basement essentially has been ‘washed down’ quite properly!<ugh> Through it all we really didn’t lose anything of impact to either of us – just junk that winds up being stored for the ages. The “good stuff” was up on shelving. I did notice that the mildew and mold is now more of a problem than before and we are most definitely going to acquire one of those whole house dehumidifier units that you told me about, Tom – much appreciated![tup][tup][tup]

Looks like I’ve come up a bit short for a contribution to the “theme” for this day. I did check out some of the web sites, but copyrights, restrictions and the like abound. Didn’t want to submit anything that would detract from CM3s fine post, yours and whatever we may get from 20 Fingers Al. So, mea culpa as some Latin once said back when iron men sailed wooden ships!

Excellent material on those three roads, and I really like the way you put it all together! First Class job indeed![tup][tup][tup] Hope good ole 20 Fingers picks up on the way you split the material into two parts – makes it so much easier to take in. Kudos to you!

Between your story and the one that started it all from Nick I had a good rolling laugh, which of course brought the wife to my side. She read both accounts and remarked, “Oh, sailor stuff … !” She did think some of the material was very “cute” – where in the world do women get these descriptions[?] Cute is for kitty cats and puppy dogs! Nothing I read was “cute!” Good Grief Charlie Brown! [sigh] Women! Can’t live with ‘em and can’t live without ‘em! [sigh] By the way, I know where the old Peppermint Lounge was located. So, YOU’RE the guys they still talk about . . . [swg]

I’m not sure that I can even look at a beer right now, but I’ll take a JD on the rocks![swg] Drop this ten spot in the Lars Box and we’ll start it over again. What’s that about a profit in the registers[?] Good deal – funding for Monday![wow]


Until the next time!

Lars
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Alberta's Canadian Rockies
  • 331 posts
Posted by BudKarr on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:30 PM
G'day Captain Tom! and all assembled!

A mighty fine shindig that you organized and mentored for Nick yesterday![tup] Judging by the sparse turnout today, my guess is some of the guys are laying low - perhaps recharging, to speak.

I see the innane postings are back on the Forum (Classic Trains) once again. I am so tempted to comment, however, I will refrain from engaging these people. Survey after survey, pointless question after pointless question, and so it goes. The thing that really disturbs me are the people who ANSWER these things! What in the world . . . .[?]

I have had a few hours to myself this day and was able to begin the process of sorting out "tons' of administrative materials into the "action - pending - file - or can" stacks. Never knew that I accumulated so much crap, and that is an accurate descriptor, over th years. I have a sea trunk full of paper - chock full in fact. Always said that "One day I'd have to go through it all." Keeps me occupied, eh[?]

I should say that your compilations of the eastern coast railroads serving the south were outstanding![tup] Very informative, very well done and of course, in keeping with the theme here of Classic Trains. Good show![tup] Same should be said for the contributions from CM3 and Doug! Perhaps one of these days, I will do more than simply observe and comment upon the works of others. That somehow annoys me, as I do not feel as if I am truly participating.

Another party and so soon[?] Is that really wise[?] Looking at next week, St. Patrick's Day is Friday - that could be quite the week for some of your heavy hitters. I am not certain about my availability for Monday, but if the opportunity presents itself, I will stop in.

Lars it sounds as if those complete fools at your former insurance company are bound and determined to have the last say. Thing is, they are talking amongst themselves, or so it would appear![swg] Glad to hear that things are on the upward trend. Makes for a much brighter outlook.

I will do my best to stop by before the end of the week, however, I have been informed that "we" have places to go and people to meet! So, I await my sealed envelope for my next mission!<grin>

Barkeep, I will have a Southern Comfort on the rocks and then I must return to the drudgery of administrative matters.

BK
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 5:42 PM
Good evening Tom and gents! I've recovered from Nick's bash ... I think ... so I'll have some "hair of the dog" and order a bottomless draught, and front a round for the house, assuming we've been restocked. Great post on the Seaboard Mr CM3, and of course the two encyclopedia posts from Capt. Tom. The thing I like best about Tuesdays, is that it forces me to learn about a railroad that I probably wouldn't have studied on my own. I wasn't able to find much on todays railroads, but at least I found this!



From the December 1943 Railway Magazine

Billy Streit laid himself wide open to attack by Atlantic Coast Line protagonists when he cited arguments (Sept. issue) to support the contention of Whiley M. Bryan, Seaboard Air Line fireman, that “SAL schedules are faster than those of the ACL.” Naturally, the Coast Line boys are swarming into the fray like enraged hornets. Look out Billy, here they come!

“Messrs, Bryan and Streit evidently don’t know anything about the ACL,” replies V.E. Unmissig, “I have ridden both roads. For instance, between Richmond and Jacksonville the same class ACL train is two hours faster than the Seaboard, although it travels more miles. Or take ACL train No. 376, the advanced Havana Special, which takes only 3 hours and 25 minutes running between Richmond and Rock Mount, 215 miles. I personally clocked this train from Rocky Mount to Weldon, 40 miles in 32 minutes, at the rate of 75 m.p.h., with 19 cars! The Seaboard doesn’t run anything like this. I say this even though I prefer the Seaboard’s equipment and train crews.”

An army man, S.R. Appleby, ASTP cadet, Fort Worth, Texas, says. “Billy Streit is full of prunes” – a doubtful insult, in view of the fact that prunes recently have been put back on the ration list. Appleby goes on: “After careful study of the latest Official Guide I find the Seaboard’s Silver Meteor makes the daily run from Richmond to Miami in five minutes less than 20 hours, on single track, by way of central Florida, while the ACL-FEC takes 20 hours (5 minutes more!) for their fastest Tamiami Champion. Likewise, the SAL Sun Queen beats the ACL Havana Special by 30 minutes.”

And H.B. Haddock of Quincy, Fla., writes solemnly: “Reading Billy Streit’s evidence makes us of the SAL feel as if we are standing at the bar of justice about to be condemned. We ask that you permit us to say a few words in our behalf.” Haddock admits the ACL-FEC Champion takes 30 minutes longer than the SAL Silver Meteor to cover the distance between Richmond and Jacksonville, but stresses the Sun Queen’s time superiority over the Havana Special. He adds: “The SAL’s slowest passenger train uses 21 hours and 35 minutes on its southbound journey as against the ACL Florida Mail’s 23 ¼ hours, while on the northbound run the SAL takes 21 hours and 55 minutes as against the Coast Line’s 25 hours.” Brother Haddock fires this parting shot: “Your figures, Billy, smell of the era when squat cuspidors lined the coach and conductors sported handlebar mustaches.”

[:I] An undertaker is walking through the graveyard when he sees a man kneeling in front of a gravestone crying and "why did you have to die?"
"Is that your wife," the undertaker asked.
"No, says the man... it was my wife's first husband." [:I]
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
  • 7,214 posts
Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 7:00 PM
Good Evening!

The good thing about this day is that we had a couple of guys pick up the slack during mid-afternoon – that is appreciated![tup] Actually, it’s been a good day – hope the same for all of you out there![tup]

A few acknowledgments:

LoveDomes Lars
Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 14:02:11


Good news about the completion of the repair work![tup] Insofar as the insurance nonsense is concerned, as they say in “New Yawk” fuggedaboudit![swg] Strange how at times that “things” have a way of getting squared away.

No one should be feeling any remorse about not Posting for the “theme stuff.” That’s not at all why I put those pieces out there. However, if one can find something to compliment what is going on – fine. The more the merrier. The idea is to enjoy what’s there – no more, no less. Ask a question or two – begin a conversation – stuff like that is just as important. No self-induced pressure, okay[?]

So, you liked that story from my days of “yore” eh[?] After I Posted that, I gave it some thought and realized that this all took place shortly after my return from Alaska – 1960. So, I was a 1st Class Petty Officer at the time – not 2nd. Only significance in that is I had a heck of a lot more to lose! In those times, the “crows” had zippers on ‘em – easy come, easy go. Only thing is, I didn’t come by my promotions all that easily. I’ve always recognized the difference between the guys who got themselves “busted” and people like me is some got caught, others didn’t! Pretty simple concept, eh[?]

Pass along this bit of wisdom to your lady – sailors put toilet seats down! Now where in civilian life can you find a man so well trained[?][swg]

Thanx for the “contribution!” and of course, for sticking with me through it all yesterday![tup][tup][tup]

Rest up for Monday![swg]


BudKarr BK
Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 15:30:


Two days in succession – now that’s a good sign![tup] BK ya just gotta ignore those Ahs doing the things they do. As long as we’re not putting up with it here or on “my other thread,” who cares[?] Don’t sweat the small stuff . . . Wish I could follow that edict![swg]

You made an excellent observation about next week – looks as if we are going to be a bit overloaded – or at least I will. Should no one step forward to “host” St. Patrick’s Day I’ll just set it up myself and not plan on anything special, other than the menu and green beer. I’m already at max output, don’t want to push it even more . . . thanx again![tup]

See my comments to Lars regarding self-induced pressure to Post. Some guys just don’t provide the substantive stuff – but they provide another dimension to what we do ‘round here. Doesn’t diminish your status at the bar one bit – not one, single bit.[tup][tup]

Appreciate the info you provided by Email and my response is en route . . . .

Politics, politicos and schmoozing are just not in my bag of tricks these days. I had my turn with a bit of that in my last two assignments. Not something I need to get into here in cyber space, but should we meet one day, perhaps we can kick it around.

Even after retirement, I worked for my state Representative (later became a Senator) and that too got old in a hurry. Did it for 6 years.<yuck> Nice guy, but I detested having to “be nice, speak nice, and write nice!” Guess you guys already know that, eh[?][swg]

Somewhere on the shelves in our basement storeroom are a couple of boxes filled with “career” stuff. I should take those boxes and put ‘em out for the trash. Haven’t looked in ‘em since I retired in 1988 – so why in blazes am I keeping all that paper[?] It’s like I’m an annex of the National Archives or something![swg] You’ll probably be way ahead of the curve in purging your “files,” for once gone, who cares[?] Really.

Always good to have you around and hope to see ya again, soon![tup]


barndad Doug
Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 17:42:15



Thanx for the Email! . . . Monday should be another “winnah!”[tup]

Now that’s a bit of a “different” story you Posted regarding our “theme.” Prunes and cuspidors, now there’s a combination![swg]

Appreciate the round . . . although the place is empty at the moment!

Jokes of the past several Posts are, without a doubt …….


Leon the Night Man takes the bar at 9 PM (Central)


Later (maybe)![tup]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by pwolfe on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:49 PM
Hi Tom and all.

Great party last night it as taken nearly all day to get the head better. I try a Bathams although it will probably last a while so may I get a round to keep Tilla happy.

Thanks for the kind words TED it was really good to have the manager at the bash and ROB for making sure the bar was well stocked[tup].

Great theme day a lot of good info on lines I knew very little about.
Thanks CM3 for setting the scene for TOM's Coast Line Yesteryear. Many thanks for the maps[tup]. The Atlantic Coast line in Cornwall mentioned at the start of Part One is I believe refers to the now closed ex Southern Railway lines.
The Auto-Train was very interesting perhaps with rising gas prices there may be a market for it on other long distant passenger routes do you think[?].

DOUG Glad you found that piece from the magazine, loyalty to ones OWN railroad ran deep. Loved the"Full of Prunes" comment.
Just a thought, I wonder why the magazine was called The Railway Magazine rather than the Railroad Magazine. I suppose the magazine stopped publication quite a while ago [?].

Good to see LARS & BK in again[tup].

OK then LEON just one more then. PETE.
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 10:51 PM
Good evening gentlemen. Okay Tom what gives why is Boris the night man [?] I thought that for hygenic and social reason's he was to be left in the kitchen or in his shed,as he and the bar and the barmaids do not mix [:O] Sounds like a job for the good inspector. I see Pete's still in so let me jump behind the ole bar and set up a round of Banthoms for both of us and the few bleury eyed locals in the pool room.

What can I say yesterday was one rip roaring success [tup], Kudo's and a round of Bromo for all those who made it happen.

Catching up from the last couple o days, great pictures on Sunday folks, Doug great picks from you my friend thank you, Lars, Tom and of coarse Nick more than out did themselves I should say as well.

Nick they say pictures say a thousand words, the one's you dropped on us I'm sure are a dissertation [;)] [swg]. To answer your question though, in a word nope in no way is my track work gonna get that intense, that was only a demi-union you should see some of the grand unions ( streetcars on four roads all crossing each other ) that the TTC has completely mind altering [:O]. In the heyday the TTC grandunion on the King, Queen, Bay , Connaught grand union ; a car enetering the intersection could exit via any of 8 different routes ! [:O] Hows that for making your head hurt [?]


Tom Great info today on the SCL,SAL,and ACL great info and great dedication to the thread sir [tup] I gulped when I originally heard ( read ) that you were going to do all three on the same theme day, I shouldn't have worried as it came off without a hitch.[tup]Great interaction from the gang too [tup][tup] I look forward to next Monday's rip roaring affair,it will be my first day back to work so I may have to come in early and come back in late [sigh]

Doug Nice bit you researched out, I have a bit of info I wrestled out myself that I will post soon. In agree with you, Tom's theme days make me run to the books and the research to find info on railways I otherwise new little about.

Lars Good news that you are now,water tight once again,now is the time that you can possibly start to look back upon and at least grin at , if not outright shake your head and laugh at the imbecility that abounded with your former insurer. Tom here's an extra ten for the Lars box, got to keep those profits flowing eh [?]

BK Good to see you in early in the week, retire sounds like it's both agreeing with you and keeping you busy at the same time. I too have noted the various and sundry fluff posts out there and the tools responding to them. I've often wondered ( sometimes aloud ) why the poll button's even an option in the forum, as I've yet to see one that has truly ment something. Hope to see you ( cyberly soon ) if not sooner ,than on Monday.


CM3 Great [assenger train on the themes of the day,took over nicly for the absent 20 fingers today.

Pete Hi another banthoms sir, sure you can handle it I'll have one with you. I aggree with the gas prices now would be the perfect time to attempt those autotrains again,of coarse that likely makes too much sence. [sigh] CNR tried them for a while aas well.The original cars were painted in the Maple Leaf scheme,so the satrt up was prior 1960, I'll have to dig in the archieves to see if I can come up with the story, that or perhaps Sir Tom or Al may have info on them as well.

I am back to some late night posts but at least the bathroom reno is going well,all the old ugly wall paper is off ( why do people paer bathrooms [?] ) Walls are patched and sanded ugh my hair was white! Tomorrow the painting is being done, Thursday the new floor tiles, Friday final touch ups then saturday I get a day off on my week of vacation [sigh]

See you guys with some late Seaboard info.

Rob
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:29 PM
Okay I'm back with some on theme info, a short synopsis of the Seaboards frieght ops.

CLASSIC DIESEL BARN # 9 SEABORD FRIEGHT OPS

Freight Service On The Seaboard

The Seaboard railroads position in the Southeast,allowed it to carry a wide variety of freight, it is of coarse best known for it's perishable fruit and produce trains between Florida and Georgia and the North. Carried on today by CSX. Despite the high profile hauling of perishables, the Seaboard carried more minerals than anything. Around 1950 approx. half of the Seaboards frieght traffic was mineral based, mostlyb phosphate, used for fertilizers ( and other things ) such as amunition and match maufactering. Alot of clay,iron ore , cement, and aggregates wwas also carried by the road, these loads also falling under the mineral category.

Next largest cargo type was durable manufactured goods, most of whick caame from the North. General mercjhandise accounted for approx 30 % of the freight moved by the SAL by mid-century. Forest products accounted for 15 % of their freight hauling which included pulpwood,paper,and pine tree stumps ( they actually had speacially designed gondolas for theae some still in use on the CSX ! ) used to make pine oil and turpintine.

The remaing 5 % was aggricultural loads, including grains, cotton products,and the perishables. The perishables accounted for half of the aggricultural loads , however the revnues from this service was important enough that the SAL held an intrest in the Fruit Growers Express, a consortium that operated a fleet of reefer cars, and refridgerated piggy back trailers.

In the 50's the SAL was one of the first other railroads to pick up the TOFC or Piggy Back trailer carrying system started by the Pennsey.By 1959 this mode of cargo handling became a huge hit with the SAL's customers,and they were operating a whole fleet of this type of trains.

As a sidenote the Seaboard was one of the few railroads that would name it's principal freight trains.Among the best known was the Merchandiser between Richmond and Miami,it was one of te few freights that held first calss operational status,putting it on par with passenger trains in the terms of priority handling. A Northbound conterpart was the Marketer , with a section out of Miami and one out of Tampa joining at Baldwin Florida . Other named freights included the Tar Heel ( Richmond-Bostic NC )this had a connection with the Clinchfield RY. The Capitol{Richmond-Birmingham NC }, the Iron Master {Birmingham-Atlanta }, the Clipper and the Alaga { Montgomery-Savanah } and the Pioneer { Montgomery-Jacksonville}.

In the 1960's ,Seaboard championed it's high speed piggy back service, the best train of the TOFC fleet being the Razorback . This hot trailer train ( for yeasr the fastest feight train in NA ) originated on The Pennsylvania RR at Kearny NJ and ran through to Hialeah Yard in Miami, 1000 miles in 30 hours !

During the SAL's last full year iof independance, 1966, it carried 66 million tons of freight the most ever in the roads history.

* info from Diesel era mags and railpace

Rob

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Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 5:22 AM


We open at 6 AM (all times zones!). (Don’t ask how we do that!)[swg]


WEDNESDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of POSTS


Good Wednesday Morning! Start the day with a cup of freshly brewed coffee, some pastries from The Mentor Village Bakery and a selection from our Menu Board for a <light> or <traditional> breakfast![tup]


Birthday Bash! scheduled for Monday, March 13th at 2 PM (Central) Combined party for barndad Doug ‘n LoveDomes Lars


If anyone would like to “host” a St. Patrick’s Day Party! March 17th, , let me know! The time is up to whoever “hosts” it. I’m not sure that I’ll be available. NO takers, no party.


Daily Wisdom

It’s not too far, it just seems like it is.[swg]
(yogi-ism)


Info for the Day:

Railways of Europe ICE Train of Germany arrives TOMORROW – watch for it!

* Weekly Calendar:

TODAY: Pike Perspective’s Day!
Thursday: Fish ‘n Chips Nite!
Friday: Pizza Nite! & Steak ‘n Fries Nite!
Saturday: Steak ‘n Trimmin’s Nite! – and –
ENCORE! Saturday


SUMMARY

Name …..…………… Date/Time …..…..………. (Page#) .. Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 05:23:24 (267) Tuesday Info & Summary

(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 05:26:36 (267) Unworthy Notice

(3) barndad Doug Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 05:45:06 (267) AM starter! & Joke!

(4) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 06:19:17 (267) AM report!

(5) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 07:17:29 (267) RRs from Yesteryear Notice!

(6) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 07:45:35 (267) AM comments, etc.

(7) coalminer3 CM3 Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 07:54:44 (267) Theme for the Day! etc.

(8) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 11:39:34 (267) Acknowledgments, updates, etc.

(9) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 12:00:01 (267) RRs from Yesteryear – ACL-SCL-SAL, Part I

(10) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 13:00:08 (268) RRs from Yesteryear – ACL-SCL-SAL, Part II

(11) LoveDomes Lars Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 14:02:11 (268) The Lars Report!

(12) BudKarr BK Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 15:30:15 (268) BK Speaks!

(13) barndad Doug Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 17:42:15 (268) Theme for the Day!, etc. & Joke!

(14) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 19:00:44 (268) Acknowledgments, etc.

(15) pwolfe Pete Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 21:49:28 (268) Pete’s PM Post!

(16) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 22:51:51 (268) Inclusive Post, etc.

(17) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 07 Mar 2006, 23:29:42 (268) Theme for the Day! Classic Barn #9

NOW SHOWING:

The Mentor Village Emporium Theatre
Double Features! Now with The Three Stooges Short Subject!

. . . Sunday, March 5th thru 11th: North to Alaska (1960) starring: John Wayne, Stewart Granger & Capucine – and – Lost in Alaska (1952) starring: Bud Abbott & Lou Costello. Short: A Pain in the Pullman (1936).


That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 5:54 AM
Good morning Tom and friends! I'll have 2 light breakfasts, then its off to work for me! Peter, you are right about the magazine I used yesterday no longer being in publication. They really started out in about 1917 as "Railroad Man" ...which changed to "Railroad Stories" in the 30's, then "Railroad Magazine" in the 40's. I finally set-up a spreadsheet yesterday to keep track of what I already have, to avoid getting any more duplicates. Great info on the Seaboard today Mr. Rob. Now .... here's some "stuff" of mine, and then I must run!

Lionel Streamlines Out of the Depression by Allan Miller, Spr. 96 Vintage Rails

“It’s the sensation of model railroading! The Train of Tomorrow. Reproduced exactly to scale! By every measurement, 1/45 actual size of that streamline beauty of the Union Pacific Railroad. The wonder-train that races to the Pacific Coast at the uncanny speed of 110 miles an hour.” – Lionel Trains 1934 consumer catalog, p. 13

Lionel’s 1934 catalog cover includes Union Pacific’s M-10000 streamliner


Lucky indeed was the lad who bounded down the stairs early on a frosty Christmas morn in 1934 to discover Lionel Outfit No. 751E – the Union Pacific’s streamlined Train of Tomorrow – circling the festive Yuletide tree! Lucky too, was the Lionel Corporation of New York City, because this futuristic outfit played a significant role in assuring that Lionel would survive to see its own tomorrow as a leading toy maker! Outfit 751E was the premier item in what would, in the mid-to-late 1930s, become a virtual barrage of streamlined passenger equipment from Lionel which replicated in miniature what Americans increasingly saw whooshing along on the nation’s main lines.

The original 46-inch-long, three-unit Train of Tomorrow model also marked Lionel’s debut in the age of dieselization. Almost simultaneously with the serious introduction of streamliners on the real railroads, Lionel produced a model of the Union Pacific’s innovative M-10000 consist. The prototype M-10000 had been unveiled in February 1934, and Lionel’s version hit retail shelves in ample time for the Christmas shopping season that same year. Thanks to a long-existing cordial and cooperative relationship between Lionel and the nation’s major railroads, the blueprints for prototype locomotives and rolling stock were regularly made available to Lionel’s engineers almost as soon as they left the builders drafting tables. And so it was that Lionel’s M-10000 came into being in double-quick time – with the toy company reaping the benefit of the Union Pacific’s mass media campaign!

Cataloged as an O gauge model, Lionel’s M-10000 was actually manufactured in 1/45 scale – slightly larger in size than the 1/48 proportions of today’s usual O scale. The train retailed for $19.50 in 1934, exclusive of track or transformer. It was a true articulated train, in the sense that the locomotive and individual cars were not designed to operate as stand-alone units. Instead, a unique swinging vestibule and shared-truck design gave the train the appearance of a continuous, unbroken, ad streamlined unit. Because of its size, articulated configuration, and overall length, a larger-radius curved track (available separately) had to be produced to accommodate the new streamliner. Although Lionel initially called this track “Model Builders” or “Model Makers” track (both terms were used in the 1934 catalog), it ultimately evolved into the more familiar O72 track – “O” for O gauge, and “72” for the curve diameter in inches. Today, Outfit 751E, in either yellow-and-brown enamel or aluminum finish (also offered with the same catalog number) commands collector prices of over $900 in excellent condition.

The M-10000 was just the beginning. In 1935, Lionel got into streamlining – both steam- and diesel powered – in a big way! The Milwaukee Road’s colorful streamlined Hiawatha steamer joined the lineup that year, as did several sets led by the New York Central’s shovel-nosed Commodore Vanderbilt, and a rendition of the Boston & Maine’s gleaming Flying Yankee. A sort of freelanced version of Lionel called a “Distant Control Streamliner” was even added to the low-end Lionel Jr. assortment. Of these sets, the Hiawatha has enjoyed the most enduring popularity among Lionel enthusiasts. This striking model remained in the lineup through 1942, and was later reissued as a “Classics” set by Lionel Trains, Inc., in 1938. Today, the original 250E Hiawatha locomotive alone is valued at around $1,500 in excellent condition. The more recent “Classics” issue is a relative bargain at $825 or so for the complete set (locomotive, tender, and three cars).

Additional streamlined trains joined the Lionel fleet in 1936, when a model of the Union Pacific’s Overland Express was released, along with O gauge and Lionel Jr. (O27 gauge) models of a Pennsylvania Railroad bullet-nosed Torpedo. As noted above, streamlining also helped reverse Lionel’s financial misfortunes in the years following the Great Depression. In the spring of 1934, Joshua Lionel Cowen, the firm’s founder and president, had been forced to place his namesake company in receivership to secure desperately-needed operating capital to manufacture the 1934 line.

Debate remains over who or what actually saved Lionel from bankruptcy in 1934. Some believe the honor should go to that famous rodent – Mickey Mouse – who, along with girlfriend Minnie, also appeared in 1934 gingerly pumping a $1 (retail) wind-up hand-car along the Lionel Lines. Others assert that Lionel’s uncanny ability to stay abreast of developments in real railroading – deserves equal if not greater credit for the rescue. Author and Lionel historian Ron Hollander provides a plausible explanation for Lionel’s 1934 comeback in his book All Aboard! (Workman Publishers, 1981). Hollander credits Mickey for providing Lionel with tremendous shot-in-the-arm publicity exposure needed to kindle renewed interest in Lionel Trains, and he credits sales of the UP Train of Tomorrow and other more profitable items in the train line with providing the cash revenue needed to put the toy maker back on a firm financial footing.

Whatever the cause-and-effect relationship may have been, the fact remains that both the mouse and the M-1000 models reportedly sold very well. And, by early February 1935, the Lionel Corporation was released from receivership, and the firm subsequently reported its first profit in four long and worrisome years. The dawning of the age of the streamliners marked a bright future for Lionel Trains.

[:I] A man was walking along a beach and came across an old lamp.
He rubbed it and out came a genie. The genie said, 'OK You get 1 wish.' The man said, 'I've always wanted to go to Hawaii but I'm scared to fly and I get seasick, could you build me a bridge to Hawaii?'
The genie laughed and said, 'That's impossible! Think of the logistics of that! How would the supports ever reach the bottom of the Pacific? Think of how much concrete... how much steel! No, think of another wish.'
The man thought of another wish. Finally, he said, 'I've been married and divorced 4 times. My wives always said that I'm insensitive. So, I wi***hat I could understand women... know how they feel inside and what they're thinking when they give me the silent treatment... know why they're crying, know what they really want when they say "nothing"... know how to make them truly happy.'
The genie said, 'You want that bridge two lanes or four?' [:I]
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Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 5:54 AM
[tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup]


SOMETHING SPECIAL WILL BE POSTED

CLOSE TO 9 AM (Central) TODAY – WATCH FOR IT!



Tom[4:-)] [oX)]


[tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
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Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 7:51 AM
Good Morning!

Nearly had ourselves a disaster behind the bar last night – as for some unexplained reason, I announced that Boris would have the bar at 9 PM (Central). Well, little did I know that the chain reaction of events began immediately upon my departure. Thanx to Rob, all got squared away – Leon the Night Man! assumed his “rightful” position, and Boris slinked away, into his shed for some late night sulking. Poor guy [?] he just doesn’t get it – can’t serve up the “slop” from the sink and call it “stew.” Can’t use his paws hands to clear off the foam overflowing over the top of the beer mug. Can’t stir the mixed drinks with one of his rather long and hairy fingers. And can’t whisper “sweet nothings” into the ear of a gal seated at the bar, clearly “belonging” to another. Bad scene – but “saved” before disaster struck. Good show, Rob!

Just want to acknowledge the Posts of Pete ‘n Rob from last night. While to you guys it may have appeared as if we had a fairly decent day – just check out the SUMMARY to see just who Posted and when. Hadn’t it been for Lars ‘n BK the PM would have been a clear “wash.”


Pete - Your reference to the “Manager” brings to mind that NO ONE has ever stepped up to assume that role, even though I asked several times. Another one of those “mysteries of life” ‘round here – for cripes sake, it’s a make believe “thing” in a “make believe” setting, and part time at that!! Oh well ……..


Rob I hate wallpapering – detest it, don’t care for it, and just plain avoid doing it. Carol really likes that aspect of home decorating. Ain’t I fortunate!![?][?] Painting and laying floor tiles, I can handle quite well. But when it comes to certain aspects of it all – I find that my arthritic fingers and hands are becoming more and more unwilling to allow me to do the things I once did. Perhaps that’s why I’m so reluctant to get into the subway construction on my layout. Hmmmmmm. Perhaps that’s it. Just don’t like the pain associated with forcing my fingers to do what they don’t care to do anymore. Funny, typing doesn’t seem to be a bother – ain’t life a puzzlement, eh[?][swg]

By the by, that was an interesting submission on the Seaboard and managing to “credit” it as a “Classic” at the same time![tup][swg] Appreciate your support for our “theme” AND the ten spot for the “kitty!”[tup]


I see that Doug has dropped quite an interesting piece on Lionel Trains with us for Pike Perspectives Day![tup][tup] Quite a bit of stuff in that article I never knew of, and I was at one time a huge Lionel fan. But my era was much later than the date of the article. I believe my first trainset was of the 1948 vintage – which I think was when MagneTraction came out. It was 0-27, which I have heard described in more than one place as S-gauge trains with O-gauge trucks. Could be. Anyway, appreciate the Post![tup] Joke[?] Nahhhhhhhhhhhh.[tdn]


Okay, boyz, I’ll be here for the day!

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]


Stick around a few minutes AFTER POSTING - The information you MISS may be for YOU!

Those who acknowledge the other guy, get acknowledged!
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by coalminer3 on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 8:36 AM
Good Morning Barkeep and All Present; coffee, please; round for the house, and $ for the jukebox. Forum is acting crazy today as it ate my previous post - so we repeat. Maybe Boris is fooling with the electrical panels again - he has, I know, over the years taken lots of voltage.

Good material on SCL. B4 I forget, Richard Prince's books on SAL and ACL have been reprinted so they are readily available. I have both originals in the stack of stuff and recommend them highly.

The previous post on Lionel gives a lot of insight into marketing practices. The comments about the Rich Rodent were interesting (my grandmother, ever formal, called him Michael Mouse.) Last week we discussed some of the family values that Lionel used in their ads; scroll back and take a look at the tag line in the color insert - it says it all.

Let's return to the halcyon (no Boris, it's not a hailstorm) days of black and white TV. How many recall the TV shows hosted by American Flyer and Lionel?

These were, of course, nothing more than what we today call infomercials, but they were "must see TV" to those of us in the neighborhood who had layouts. I have mentioned in previous posts that the 'hood was divided into American Flyer and Lionel factions. Ever tolerant, I watched both programs.

American Flyer originated (portentous voiceover here,) from the "Gilbert Hall of Science." Well, that was in New Haven, so it was no surprise that some AF offerings resembled NH protoypes. Many of you have probably heard of American Flyer coaches such as ran on the New Haven and Lehigh Valley; this is where the term came from. The AF show featured lots of how-to material, and, of course, extended treatments of the latest and greatest products.

Lionel's program did a lot with product features, display layouts (there's a story in there for this year's hoilday page), and segments of real railroading. Somewhere I have a copy of a battered inch-thick paperback from Lionel which covered a lot of this material. I have got to find that and do a post on it. There were also regional spinoffs such as "Joe DiMaggio's Lionel Clubhouse" in which the once and future Mr. Coffee shamelessly shilled for Lionel trains - needless to say, that puppy didn't run in Boston.

BTW, it might be interesting to see what Barry Bonds would do with something like that - probably BIGGGGG trains...............

well, I 'd better get out of here.

work safe

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Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 9:00 AM
<bonk> <boink> <bonk> (What kinda gavel is this [?])

Oye, Oye – All Rise for the Order of the Stools Selection Committee

We are rized ….

Quiet!

Who let that parrot in here [?]

Right!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

You may be seated!

The Selection Committee of the Order of the Stools announces the findings of their March meeting.

Be it known from this day forth that the following customer of ”Our” Place has been distinguished by faithful participation along with willingness to engage in the banter at the bar: LoveDomes Lars who first visited us on January 11th, 2006, has been awarded a Reserved Stool, in the Order of the Stools of the bar known as ”Our” Place!

Congratulations to you, Lars! [tup][tup][tup]


The next meeting of the Committee will be quarterly with no date determined.

This session is now concluded.

<bonk> <bornk <bonk> (We gotta do better than this!)

All Rise as the Selection Committee departs.

We are still rized …

Confound it! (Is THAT an Armadillo I see over there[?])

Awk, Awk, Awk

Quiet!

Drinks on the house! Boris ring the bell, twice! [tup][tup][tup]

Tom, Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
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Posted by BudKarr on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 11:48 AM
Good Morning Captain Tom! and all assembled!

Congratulations to LoveDomes Lars, a friend and one of the “Three Horsemen” of the bar![tup] Welcome aboard as a Reserved Stool member in what perhaps is the finest cyber bar & grill in the Ether![tup]

It is a bit early for me, however taking advantage of the “free time,” thought I would browse the thread and what a pleasant surprise to read the announcement from “The Committee!” Another wise choice, indeed![swg]

Kind of a sloppy morning out there with temperatures around freezing (F) and snow showers on and off. Visibility is poor, making the mountain views disappear and reappear. Rather like navigating aboard ship in fog.

Things here in Alberta are rather exciting these days with the oil sands industry pumping out black gold and pulling in the real stuff. Many big dollars floating around in that area and elsewhere, and I am afraid for the Province in that we already are seeing the signs of wealth, unchecked. In some areas property values have skyrocketed and as the “new money” arrives and spreads out, things are bound to change. I will have to check my embattlements and gun emplacements to ensure our security![swg]

Say, Tom I think I will have a very large and hot coffee with a just a “splash” of whatever you think will make it interesting. A couple of those fine looking “calorie free” pastries ought to do just fine, thank you! My, that tastes just like chocolate . . .

My intention this morning was to bore you all to death with my “revelation” about the Canadian Pacific Railway. But then it occurred to me that anything I reveal will only be a rehash of what many have already seen, or know. You see, now that I am reading up on railroads in my newly formed, but rather modest library, there are so many, many interesting areas. I enjoy history, and the story of the CP is quite like one of this nation. A fascinating read. Oh, sorry – the book is “Canadian Pacific: Stand Fast, Craigellachie (Hardcover) by Greg McDonnell.” Somewhere on these pages, I believe our Captain spoke highly of this and other works by author. I concur.[tup]

Sir Doug, that is a fantastic bit of information you provided about Lionel Trains and I enjoyed it immensely. In fact, it started me browsing to see just what is out there regarding those trains. What a plethora of information, as seems to always be the case on the net. However, as we all have learned from time to time, best to ensure that what one takes as “Gospel” isn’t just anecdotal nonsense. Lionel, a name from the past and a company that is only a mere shadow of what it once was back in the days when boys grew up with electric trains and Erector sets.[tup]

Sir Coalminer (that is far easier than CM3, methinks) I also enjoyed your discussion regarding the American Flyer of old. Brought back many memories. While I was not totally “into” my trains as so many were, I do recall the neverending flap over which was best, Lionel or AF[?] Always good for a spirited debate.[tup]


That coffee tasted so good, I think perhaps one more, then I must return to the chores of this day.

Good wishes to you, Lars! Have at least one on me, and perhaps another . . . A round for the house, barkeep!

BK
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Posted by West Coast S on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 1:05 PM
Morning Tom and the gang, Almost diaster behind the bar? Boris?? I have to come around more often!!! Happy belated birthday Nick, now that your'e of legal age what you going to do with all that new found knowledge???

Rob, Doug..Strange, I never owned a Lionel product in my life, now I wish I had my Erector set that I bashed and abused, was handed down from granpa on my 11th birthday, kids have no rights to objects they have no appreciation of, ah' hindsight can heal the wounds of time!!! I hear tell the MTH is being sued by Union Pacifc over copywrite infringment.

Tom, I'm a bit late, but were you aware of a run through agreement between SCL and SP? Pour me a cup of te Juan Valdez and i'll profer the details::

Seems SP and UP could not come to a rate agreement on the shipment of citrus to east coast markets. Up refused to budge from what SP considered a exhboriant rate. After consulting the leagal department and folks with the ICC, the SP was released from it's exclusive UP routing, a pact that had been in effect for close to one hundred years. On the other side of country, SCL was having similar rate problems with connecting roads to route empty reefers west. The proposal was announced by SP, they would move empties west in exchange for loads east via a Cotton Belt, T&NO hence to the west coast.

Service began in 1969, Santa Fe, in response enacted a similar agreement with the Frisco, this brought brought Frisco power to California on run throughs, much the same as SCL power was common on SP routes and SP power common on SCL routes as power was not changed among carriers with the foreign locomotives on the point in most cases in the interest of speeding up schedules. By 1971, such run throughs had forced UP's to action as they sought to regain this lost revenue, SP proposed the same rate, they orginally offered in 1968, UP had no choice but to accept the terms and conditions. Very rarely was SCL or Family Lines power observed on the SP after the resumption of routing via the Overland Route.

Dave
SP the way it was in S scale
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Posted by LoveDomes on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 2:12 PM
Hello Tom and Gentlemen at the bar!

I must say that I am humbled and quite surprised at the announcement of my selection into the Order of the Stools! That’s quite an honor and for someone like me who has only been frequenting this place for just a bit shy of two months, well, thank you for the confidence![tup]

There is one thing that I will state up front and unequivocally: when I make a commitment to something, I stick with it. So should the time ever come where I cannot hold up my end of the “bargain,” I will communicate that with you, Tom before simply bailing out or disappearing or whatever has happened with so many. That’s behavior that is inexcusable, even for the most liberal minded out there – it’s is rude, it is inconsiderate and it displays a complete disregard for all the faith and trust some put into others with ventures like this bar. Period, end of [soapbox] – Ring the bell Boris – set ‘em up Tom – twice![swg] I am indeed honored and will keep my Reserved Stool in good repair![tup]

Hmmmmmm, is that a twinge of red paint showing through[?] Well, that guy didn’t seem to want to stick it out either, eh[?] Enjoyed his input though, but just a shame that the idea of interaction doesn’t “click” with everyone. I for one, enjoy the inclusive approach and think it makes one and all feel as if they are part of this place.[tup]

Hey BK I appreciate the heartfelt congrats sent all the way from Alberta’s high country! Means a lot and I hoist my tankard to you, Sir![tup]

I had a couple of things on my mind today, but for some reason, I’m drawing a “blank!” Must be the “moment,” eh[?][swg] I really am taken in by all of this . . .

Perhaps what I should do is just order one of those great hero sandwiches – ham, swiss, butter & mustard, 2 large pickles from the barrel AND a frosty mug of Piels. Maybe my thoughts will return . . . I’ll just sit over there and listen to the tunes coming out of Herr Wurlitzer. Those Alabama tunes are from the quarters I put in there – that 5 plays for a quarter goes way, way back. Good idea to keep it going! Anyway, maybe my thoughts will come back to me . . .


Until the next time!

Lars
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Posted by nickinwestwales on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 2:13 PM
Hi guys,flying visit,back later-few points-thanks to TOM & all for momentous birthday bash,especially those kind souls who carried me out to the car-I promise I`m good for the dry-cleaning bills..............

LARS-Congratulations on your entirely justified elevation[tup][^][tup]--I believe your first official task is judging the annual "Paddy`s Day" Miss Mentor contest-tough gig but sorry-thems the breaks [swg]

Pike Day Topic-Tom showed some pix of P.G.E steamers on sunday & I suggested that they would make the basis of a nice little fleet for a smallish pike.
Well since LARS + ROB both find themselves with unexpected real estate and BK seems feverish with the Train Bug:-how about some thumbnail plans -lets call it 15`x10` of free space-where would you place it,what traffic,when ?-Loose framework only-back of a beer-mat stuff,any takers ??
Will be back in a while with my suggestion(s)
gotta run,missisnick away so honey do list aquiring gothic proportions
[4:-)][oX)]TOM-Drinks all around and a double for LARS,please,before I get "Tweeted"--quite forgot my manners..
later
nick[C=:-)]
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Posted by LoveDomes on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 2:50 PM
Hi Nick!

Figured if I stuck around long enough, someone would recognize me![swg]

Thanx for the congrats - very much appreciated! So, I've been "drafted," huh[?] Well, let's put it THIS WAY - you show up, and I'll do what I can to keep things moving around here. But I ain't doing a solo, Mate![swg]

Many thanx for the rounds!<hic> I've been imbibing a bit meself ...... [swg]

Looks like Tom may have skipped out on us - as he hasn't posted for sometime. Don't blame him one bit. There are times when I read some of the stuff and wonder "where" have these guys been. But ...... I mustn't get wrapped around the axle with that, huh[?] That's clearly their problem, not mine.

Ok - I'll just sit it out a bit longer, as long as those drinks keep coming! Say, is that Cindy behind the bar[?] What's going on .....[?]

Until the next time!

Lars
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Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 3:10 PM
G'day Gents!

It's nothing but a rumor about my demise! I'm here and have been. Just upstairs catching up on a bit of shuteye - haven't been sleeping very well for awhile. Cindy offered to give me a break for a few hours - so I took her up on it. Thanx you lovely thing!<grrrrrrrrrrrr>

So, looks like BK - Dave - Lars 'n Nick have all managed to come by. Good deal![tup] Always appreciate the visits and of course whatever "wisdom" comes with it.[swg]

So, you are humbled, my son[?] Good! Glad that the "honor" makes you feel that way, for there is a measure of truth in what you say about "faith 'n trust." And man oh man have I ever made some poor judgments regarding some selections along the way.<geesh> Have I ever!![tdn]

I have no intention of expounding in that direction - so you are all spared.[swg] Here's to ya, Lars m'boy, drink up and let's have another![tup] By the by, that's a fine Pix you posted on "my other thread." I couldn't find any for the Reading and glad you did.[tup]

So, the "left coast" guys are at it again, eh[?] Don't quite know what to say other than they either aren't getting the most currrent info - aren't reading what's there - or are skimming through too fast to pick up the salient points. But here's the deal - so what[?] The way I figger it, I've tried my level best to get everyone to understand the premise of this joint, the idea of this joint, the way we do things in this joint, and so forth. What more can one guy do[?] If it isn't "Phantom Browsing" and with no Posts following, it's just . . . same-o, same-o.

BK Very glad you came by and shared in Lars' big day! I know he's appreciative and that kinda rounds out "The Three Horsemen," so to speak. All "qualified" and rarin' to go![swg]

Nick Always good to see ya and hope you DO get a chance to return. Have been waiting for your "report" after the "bash," figgered there'd be some "stuff" crossing this way from Merry Olde and attached lands![swg]

Dave Had no idea of the connection between the SCL and SP - but if anyone could find it, leave it to you. But then again, aren't you the guy who missed our "SP Theme Day!"[?][swg] A puzzlement you are, Sir. Have a drink on me.[tup]

Okay boyz, I'm going to drift back into the shadows and hope the dialogue around here continues .........

Oh yes, St.Patrick's Day can be whatever you guys want it to be - just that I won't be around for much of it. So, perhaps we can get pwolfe Pete out of wherever he "hides" during the daytime, and one or two others. But not to worry - I'll still have the corned beef & cabbage, green beer, and whatever else "goes with" the event![swg]

Later![tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by pwolfe on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 4:23 PM
Hi Tom and all.

Hope this post reaches the Bar,I had a post for yesterday tea time. It went, but I know not where[sigh]. Still it could be a lot worse I could be in charge of the Nuclear Missle launch computer "[oops] where did that one go[?].
As A.A. Milne said of Winnie The Pooh "He was a bear of little brain"[*^_^*].

May I add to BK and NICKS congratulations to LARS on the well deserved elevation to the Reserved Stools. A pint of BathamsXXX and a round for the house to mark the occasion. [tup][tup][tup].

ROB Great Info on the Auto Trains it will be good to read about the Canadian ones, and the frieghts of the Seaboard lines. Very interesting on the named frieghts. The LNER in the 30s introduced a fast frieght between London and Edinburgh called the Green Arrow. This name was also bestowed on the first of the V2 2-6-2 class of locos introduced at the same time. These locos were very capable engines and hauled very heavy loads( for the UK) during the war. In the diesel era a fast frieght was introduced between London and Glasgow called The Condor and was worked by pairs of the not too sucessful and short lived class of diesel with the unique, in England, CO-BO wheel arrangement .

DOUG and CM3 thanks for the great Lionel info [tup].It was very fortunate that they were able to survive the depression. Any more on the history of the company would be much appriciated. Thanks for the Railroad Magazine info Doug [tup].

NICK Glad you enjoyed the party. A great bash[^].

TOM I will do my best to call in on ST Paddy's Day. but we are hosting the Birthday Bash for one of the brides college mates and some may be coming early Friday and I may have to act as host till the bride is free. I was thinking of having the corned beef and cabbage early which would surly get me banished to the computer room [:-,]. I really miss the Fray Bentos corned beef perhaps NICK can give a description of it. I have not seen it over here, but I have developed quite a taste of American corned beef, good stuff[dinner][tup]. PETE.

PS TOM is the special still at 9 PM.( page 268)[?]
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Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 4:43 PM
G'day!

Just had to make comment regarding Pete's Post! I'm still laughing at the opening comments![tup] Very clevor stuff, Mate well put![tup][tup][tup]

Pete 'n Lars 'n Nick let's ensure that we don't get ourselves too far into this St. Patrick's Day "thing!" IF someone wants to HOST the event, fine. If NOT, then it will be like any other Friday with the excecption of the menu (which I will heavily rely upon Nick [C=:-)] for). No need to turn this into an "ordeal," for it that occurs, then it ceases to be FUN!

Pete I would think that the downside of your "plan" to eat the corned beef 'n cabbage early, would not only be "consigned to the computer room," but most probablly "banished" through the night!<grin>

Have one on me! This is truly a good day, for Lars and the gang from "Our" Place who give a RAT's PATOOT!!!

Later! [tup]

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 6:17 PM
Good Evening!

My contribution for this "Pike Perspective's Day!"

First: A "gujde" to the "old" American Flyer S-gauge trains and Erector sets.

Second: A "guide' to the "old" Lionel Corporation, makers of O-27 and O-gauge trains running on three-rail tracks.

Both from: Wikipedia

QUOTE: A. C. Gilbert Company

The A. C. Gilbert Company was an American toy company, once one of the largest toy companies in the world. It is best known for introducing the Erector Set (a construction toy similar to Meccano in the rest of the world) to the marketplace.

Gilbert was founded in 1909 in Westville, Connecticut, originally as a company providing supplies for magic (Alfred Carlton Gilbert was a magician). Gilbert invented Erector in 1911, inspired by railroad girders, and the construction toy was introduced two years later. By 1935, Gilbert was also producing microscopes.

In 1938, Gilbert purchased American Flyer, a struggling manufacturer of toy trains. Gilbert re-designed the entire product line, producing 1:64 scale trains running on O gauge track. Although these are sometimes referred to as S scale or S gauge trains, they are technically O27. At the same time, Gilbert introduced a line of HO scale trains, which were primarily marketed under the brand name Gilbert HO.

By 1942, Gilbert was producing equipment for military aircraft for use in World War II.

Gilbert introduced S gauge model railroads in 1946, mostly in response to the shortcomings of O scale utilized by Lionel and Marx. These newer American Flyer trains were smaller and proportioned more realistically than either the pre-war American Flyer trains or its post-war competition. Although these new trains were popular, Lionel outsold American Flyer nearly 2 to 1.

Other products followed; chemistry sets in various sizes as well as similar sets for the budding scientist, including investigations into radioactivity.

Gilbert struggled somewhat after the death of its founder in 1961. Gilbert's family sold out its shares, and the company was never profitable under its new ownership. By 1967, Gilbert was out of business. Erector was sold to Gabriel Industries and American Flyer was sold to Lionel.

Although A. C. Gilbert has not existed as a company for several decades, Gabriel continued to use the brand name on its Erector set and microscope products, a practice that subsequent owners of the Erector brand have continued. Current Erector toys have the words "The construction toy from A. C. Gilbert" on their packaging. Lionel also uses the brand name on its American Flyer products, along with the old Gilbert catchphrase, "Developed at the Gilbert Hall of Science," on its product packaging.

A collection of Gilbert trains, Erector sets and objects built from them, chemistry sets, etc. is displayed in the Eli Whitney Museum in Hamden, Connecticut.

from: www.wikipedia.com


QUOTE: Lionel Corporation

Lionel Corporation was an American toy manufacturer, specializing in toy trains and model railroads. Its trains, produced from 1901 to 1969, are the most famous toy trains in the United States and among the most famous in the world.

Although not the first to manufacture toy trains—its products originally were marketed as toys—Lionel is the most enduring brand name in the United States. Many of the decades-old trains in attics and basements in the United States were made by Lionel, and the products are popular with collectors.
Company History

The original Lionel Corporation was founded in 1900 by Joshua Lionel Cowen and Harry C. Grant in New York City. The company's devotees disagree over the date of incorporation, as the official paperwork gives a date of September 5, but the paperwork was not filed until September 22, more than two weeks later.

The Pre-War Era

Lionel's first train was not intended for sale to consumers, but rather, as a storefront display. Delivered in 1901, it ran on a brass track and was powered by a battery and a motor originally intended for use in an electric fan. Cowen hoped to use the public's fascination with railroads and electricity to capture the public's attention and direct it to the goods for sale. Members of the public started approaching store owners about buying the trains instead, prompting Lionel to begin making toy trains for the general public. The earliest trains were larger than the sizes commonly available today, running on two-rail track with the rails 2 7/8 inches apart. In 1906, Lionel began offering a three-rail track that was less prone to electrical shorts. Its outer rails were 2 1/8 inches apart, which did not match any of the existing standards that other manufacturers had been using since 1891. Whether this was an accidental misreading of Märklin's Gauge 2 specifications or an intentional incompatibility is unclear, but Lionel named this non-standard track Standard Gauge, and then trademarked the name. When other U.S. companies began using Lionel's standard, they usually called it Wide gauge. Starting in 1915, Lionel followed most of its U.S. competitors and adopted the smaller O gauge standard for its budget-level trains.

By the end of World War I, Lionel was one of three major U.S. manufacturers of toy trains, and it grew rapidly due to shrewd marketing. Cowen began getting department stores to incorporate his toy trains as part of their Christmas tree displays, linking toy trains to Christmas and making them into popular Christmas presents. Lionel made its trains larger than anyone else, making them appear to be better values. When competitors criticized the realism of Lionel's trains--Cowen had been unwilling to invest in the equipment necessary for lithography, so its early offerings were simply painted with solid colors of enamel paint with brass detail parts--Lionel targeted advertising at children, telling children its products were the most realistic toy trains. Additionally, Lionel criticized the durability of competitors' products in ads targeted at parents.

By the 1920s, Lionel had overcome Ives to become the market leader, selling metal trains with colorful paint schemes. Lionel's fierce ad campaigns took their toll on Ives, who filed bankruptcy in 1928. Lionel and American Flyer bought Ives and operated it jointly until 1930, when Lionel bought Flyer's share. Lionel operated Ives as a subsidiary until 1932.

The Great Depression hurt Lionel badly, and the company flirted with bankruptcy because the trains were considered a luxury item, and at the height of the Depression one of Lionel's more extravagant locomotives cost as much as a used Ford Model T. In an effort to compete with companies that were willing to undercut Lionel's prices without diluting its premium Lionel and Ives brands, Lionel introduced a line of inexpensive electric toy trains under the Winner Toys or Winner Toy Corp. brand name, which it sold from 1930 to 1932. The starting price for a set was $3.25, including a transformer.

These and other efforts to improve its financial standing were unable to keep Lionel from going into receivership in May 1934.

The product widely credited with saving the company was a wind-up handcar featuring Mickey and Minnie Mouse that ran on O gauge track and sold for $1. Lionel manufactured 250,000 units but was still unable to keep up with demand. At a wholesale price of 55 cents, the handcar's sales would not have provided enough profit to pay off Lionel's debts of $300,000, but it nevertheless provided much-needed cash. Lionel avoided bankruptcy and emerged from receivership the next year. By 1939, Lionel had discontinued its standard gauge products, concentrating instead on the more-affordable O gauge and OO gauge, which it had introduced in 1938.

Lionel ceased toy production in 1942, producing nautical items for the United States Navy during World War II. The company advertised heavily, however, promising new and exciting products and urging American teenagers to begin planning their post-War layouts. It also introduced the so-called "paper train," a detailed set of cut-and-fold models of Lionel trains printed on cardstock that was notoriously difficult to put together.

The Post-War Era

Lionel resumed production of toy trains in late 1945, replacing their product line with less-colorful but more realistic-looking trains and concentrating on O gauge exclusively. Many of Lionel's models contained a new feature: smoke, produced by dropping a small tablet into the locomotive's smokestack.

During the 1950s, Lionel outsold its closest competitor, American Flyer, nearly 2 to 1, peaking in 1953. Some Lionel histories state that Lionel was the largest toy company in the world by the early 1950s. If this was the case, it was short-lived, as Lionel's total sales for 1955 were about $23 million, while rival Louis Marx, whose toys included more than just trains, had $50 million in total sales.

But Lionel started to decline in the late 1950s when hobbyists started switching to the smaller but more realistic HO scale trains and kids' interest shifted from trains to toy cars. Lionel brought out a line of HO scale trains in 1957 and followed with a line of slot cars as well. Neither approached the popularity its O gauge trains had enjoyed. Efforts to increase the sales of the O gauge trains by making them more cheaply were largely unsuccessful.

In 1959, Cowen and his son sold out their interest in the company and retired. The purchaser was Cowen's grand nephew Roy Cohn, a businessman and attorney who had become infamous during the McCarthy Anti-communist hearings. Cohn replaced much of Cowen's management with his own. The direction of the company changed, and a small number of Lionel fans consider 1959 the end of the "true" Lionel. Cohn's tenure with Lionel was not successful and the company lost over US$13 million in the four years he ran the company.

Lionel's efforts to diversify, which were accelerated under Cohn, were unable to make up for the public's declining interest in its trains. Meanwhile, Lionel's closest competitor was also fading. In January 1967 the parent company of rival American Flyer, The A. C. Gilbert Company, went bankrupt. Lionel bought the name and the product line in May of that year in a deal valued at $150,000. However, Lionel lacked the financial resources to do anything with the acquisition and filed bankruptcy itself less than four months later, on August 7, 1967. In 1969 Lionel Corp. sold the product dies for its struggling train line—sales had declined to just over $1 million per year—and rights to the brand name to cereal conglomerate General Mills. The Lionel brand name continues today, under the ownership of Lionel, LLC.

Some Lionel enthusiasts consider 1969 the end of "true" Lionel trains, since the design and manufacturing changed, sometimes dramatically, under Lionel's new ownership.

The end of Lionel Corporation

After the sale of its train product lines, Lionel Corporation became a holding company that specialized in toy stores. At its peak, Lionel Corp. operated about 70 stores, mostly in the eastern United States, under the names Lionel Kiddie City and Lionel Playworld. For a time it was the second-largest toy store chain in the country. However, the larger Toys R Us was consistently able to undercut its prices, and Lionel found it increasingly difficult to compete. It filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy on June 14, 1991. By 1993 it had dwindled to 28 stores in seven states, and on June 2, 1993, it announced its intention to liquidate all of its stores and go out of business[1].

The Lionel trademarks were purchased by Richard Kughn, a Detroit real estate magnate who had bought the Lionel product line from General Mills in 1986. See Lionel, LLC.

The old Lionel factory in Hillside, New Jersey, where Lionel Corporation manufactured trains from the early 1920s up to 1969, burned in April 2004.

from: www.wikipedia.com

Enjoy![tup]

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by West Coast S on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 6:21 PM
Afternoon again Tom and the gang.

PWolf,, your'e nuclear humor brings to mind a conversation I had last week with a commander of three such silos. Seems this particular team was sub-par performance wise, the Col. was brought in evaluate why and to re-qualify the operators to current standards.

Being the benevolent leader, he quickly discovered and understood that several were past due for promotion and others deprived of new assignments, thus they had cause to be depressed in his view. All was going well under the new command, morale improved and the results from the qualification course finally arrived. Most recieved much overdue promotions and new duty assignments, but one to the horror of the Air Force and the commander one indvidule had no concept of GPS systems or how to employ/interdict/compile such systems and completely failed the qualification course on GPS theory , this after sitting seven years at a launch control counsel.

Now I hear tell of the near sighted UAV operator , "Sir, downtown Barstow looks alot like downtown Baghdad". Who says we aren't using technology to the fullest?

Ok, I see Tom is not going to let me forget SP day and i'm so far off topic and scope that i'll cover the rounds for the rest of the eveing. Boris, see that the fifty makes it to the jar.

Dave
SP the way it was in S scale
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Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 6:26 PM
G'day Dave

A couple of comments:

(1) I didn't know Barstow HAD a downtown![swg]

(2) Notice anything at all that happened today warranting comment[?] NOT a quiz!<geesh!>

Thanx for the cash - we'll use it for what's coming up on the Calendar - see SUMMARIES!

Later![tup]

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by West Coast S on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 6:45 PM
Oh, where are my manners? Congradulations Lar's on your exaulted status, we are a proud, mischievieous gang of ruffians, I mean good people. I'll have Boris send a smooch your way.

Tom, There is nothing I like better the finding a beat up AF S scale item for pennies on the dollar, with some creative reworking they can yield scale models. Anyone have about half a dozen of the AF six dome tank cars laying about??

Dave
SP the way it was in S scale
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 7:28 PM
Good evening Tom and friends! I'll have my usual bottomless draught.. in anticipation of whatever it is that is to be sprung on us at nine O'clock (central)! I thought we already had big enough doings with my man Lars being inducted into the sublime, respected and coveted RESERVED STOOL! No big surprise there though, as he well deserves it. Way to go Lars!

Great stuff on the A.C. Gilbert Co. and the Lionel Corp Capt. Tom! I especially liked the way that your information on Lionel didn't contradict anything I posted earlier. Gives me faith in the publications over here! Speaking of which, I had some more stuff delivered to my work today, that I'm anxious to check out .... but I'll be back!

[:I] One afternoon this guy drives down a highway to visit a nearby lake and relax. On his way to the lake one guy dressed from head to toe in red standing on the side of the highway gestures him to stop. Our guy rolls down the window. "How can I help you?"
"I am the red *** of the asphalt, you got something to eat?"
With a smile on his face he hands one of his sandwiches to the red dressed guy and drives away. Not even five minutes later he comes across another guy. This time the guy is dressed fully in yellow, standing on the side and waving him to stop. A bit irritated our guy stops, cranks down the window. "What can I do for you?"
"I am the yellow *** of the asphalt, you got something to drink?"
Hardly managing to smile this time he hands to the guy a can of soda and then stomps on the pedal and takes off again. In order to make it to the lakeside before sunset he decides to go faster and not to stop no matter what. To his frustration he sees another guy on the side of the road, dressed all in blue, making a hand signal to stop him. Not quite willing our guy decides to stop a last time. He rolls his window down and yells to the guy, "I know, you're the blue *** of the asphalt. Now just what the hell do you want?"
"Driver's license and registration please." [:I]
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Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 7:37 PM
Gentlemen!

Don't quite know what to make of our friends from the "left coast." One guy has to be lead to the water, the other can't find it![swg]

Just noticed 20 Fingers back in "action," but not here! Nope - Posting away with one of those blankety-blanks who appears so often with "questions."<geesh> Sure makes me wonder - really wonder! Why "feed" these people[?]

Dave I can understand your passion for AF - however, now that I'm into the more "prototypically correct" stuff with SHS and American Models - one can really see the difference. However, having said that - what I'd give to have my old Lionel trains from the 1940s 'n 50s.

Okay, boyz - have one on me and I'm going to lay low for the rest of the evening.

Leon the Night Man takes the bar at 9 PM (Central)

Catch y'all in the AM - check the SUMMARY for "what's what" on Thursday!

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
  • 7,214 posts
Posted by siberianmo on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 7:47 PM
Hey Doug!

Chalk it up to being bleary eyed, careless, or just old .... I blew it! Shudda said 9 AM - AND it WAS for Lars![%-)][%-)][%-)]

Mistake corrected and life goes on! Man oh man, I think perhaps it's time for me to get away from this stuff - that's a couple of screw ups in two successive days. Hmmmmmm.

I thought that suff on AC & Lionel was pretty good background for anyone who either doesn't know, or just needs a "refresher." Those trains from the era when I was a kid, were huge in the lives of the kids I grew up with ... [tup]

Looks like your joke got "bleeped!" See, someone else feels the same way I do![swg]

Catch ya in the AM!

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo

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