Forty Second Street NY Conduit Streetcars

[daveklepper]

Posted with no comment neecessary:

(Unless someone else spplies rhe exact Manhattan location)

[daveklepper]

Relieve Your Boredom

Inb

Jack May
,

Here's a quick way to earn a buck.

 

[daveklepper]

More regarding conduit:   RE: Conduit complications

 

Henry Raudenbush

More to that:  NY Metropolitan Ry built a branch off of the Broadway cable lineline, which ran on 232rd St from Broadway to Lexington Ave, then way up Lexinton to 104^th Street.   Previously, 23 St had a horsecar line, but cable, with a centered conduit, was installed on those two long blocks.  Not too complex.  The Fun began a couple of years later, when the 23^rd St Crosstown line was equipped for conduit electric operation.  The Electric conduit was installed between the cable conduit and one track rail.  This left a narrow strip of pavement which had to be stood on cast iron legs between the cables and the electric contact rail.  At Fourth (Park) avenue, this crossed the 4^th & Madison line, which was also conduit electric.  There were doulde track connecting curves with conduit in the NW and SW quadrants at 23^rd and Park.   A diagram of this mess was printed in the Electric Railway issue of Cassier’s Magazine, (which was reprinted by the Light Railway Transport League in the 1950’s.)    A rough count shows that this included:    36 crossings of track rails (frogs)

                    16 crossings of cable conduit and rail

                    46 crossings of electric conduit and rail

                    8 crossings of cable and electric conduit

                    7 crossings of 2 electric conduits

Imagine that the company expected that all this investment –

and subsequent upkeep (to say nothing of operation)  –

could be paid out of 5 cent fares! 

It was not. 

 

Hank

               

 

...

[Overmod]

Sorry, I thought it would just render the picture of MSG going up.  See the edited post for the pictures in context.

[daveklepper]

Not fair.  Not like U-tube, wehere you can just look, enjoy, and leave.

They ask too many questions in my opinion.

[Overmod]

.

Got to a computer, and put it in the correct prior-post context.

[Overmod]

That is a perfect 'missing link' picture.  Does he have more that show the progress of the work?

Something possibly relevant to this is the way this road improvement was to be preserved in the ground plan of the proposed Hyperboloid project of 1954, kind of an Incinerated House version of GCT at the base of the twister.  You need to know what you're looking at to appreciate what Pei was doing -- there's all sorts of proportional retention in the very vestigial arrangements, infinitely more successful than the same general idea tried at the General Motors building.

Were it not for the specific site, this would be one of the greatest 'unbuilt regrets' of any Manhattan project; would that something of that distinction had been part of the Penn Station Replacement once that became inevitable.

Vs. this

 

 

[daveklepper]

Ovwemod was probably correct that the bypass roadways, the arch roadway bridges over 42nd and 41st Street, and the ramp to street level at 40th Street were all part of the Grand Central Terminal overall design.  But completion of the roadways, bridges, and ramp waited until 1924.  The one-block elevated railway branch was in the way and was not closed until 1923.

Here is a 1921 photograph. also from Henry Raudenbush.  The streetcar ramp to the then-streetcar tunnel is to the right of the photo, starting south of 41st Street, with its portal, to be under the future ramp, just north of 40th Street.

For the 1936 conversion to the Robert Moses "Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel," the Tunnel's portal and ramp were each moved one block south.  The ramp from the GCT roadways thus has a direct same-lanes connection.

 

[daveklepper]

Given that a 42nd Street Movie Theater probably was a 1st-run theater, we should probably date the photo at 1931.

And in thanks for the three excellent views:

 

[Overmod]

daveklepper

By 1935, were not some autos showing signs of "streamlining?'

Look at the pictures I linked that were from 1938 or later and look at the cars on the street.  Visibly more 'streamlined' compared even to cars of 1932.

[daveklepper]

In December 1935, the 4th and Madison line went bus, the first of the major "Green Lines" bus conversions.  By 1935, were not some autos showing signs of "streamlining?'   

[MidlandMike]

I noticed a movie marquee on the left side that had Joan Crawford "Laughing Sinners", that was released in 1931.

[daveklepper]

You are absolutely correct.  I just pulled up the picture on a large screen, and yes, I recognize the arch bridge as the Grand Central roadway bridge, not anything resembling an elevated railroad.

My apologies to you and the other readers.

The view is f rom 3rd Avenue, the first intersection is Lexington, and the bridge in the picture, and the details are there, is the Park Avenue roadway overpass.

Furthermore, when I use the Zoom enlarge feature of MSPaint, I can clearly see a 4thb and Madison NY & Harlem streetcar under the roadway viaduct, either just emerged from the tunnel and about to turn left on 42nd for the short trip west to Madison or doing the reverse.

Hats of to you!

Regarding the date, note that the only bus in the picture is a hood-in-front,

But I agree 1908 seems too early for the automobiles.  1928 does seem reasonable.  The streetcars would fit also, since no single-truck seem to seen.

[Overmod]

daveklepper

The early Baroque 6th Avenue and 42nd Street  Station does not seem to my eyes to be the same station as the 1938 station.  Too many detail differences, in windows and roof construction.  I may be wrong.  An explanation is that the photo I posted was at the very time of the IRT improvements, and the old Swiss Chalet had been torn down for the replacement.

To me, the mass of the structure, the underframing, the roof height, and the stairs down to the sidewalk on either side, on the side of the station we would have seen from the picture you posted, are all common from 1879 all the way until we see the stairs being disassembled.  

ISTR that architectural changes were made over the years on some of the El stations.  I see different window detail in the 1926 view, but the openings and spacing appear to be very similar.  Perhaps there is documentation on 'style modernization' of some of these stations over the years, either to reduce maintenance or make them more 'modern'.

But very clearly the bridge pictured in your photo is NOT the 6th Avenue El, it's a block or more further east.  And is exactly where a bridge at the end of the ramp up to 'mezzanine level' of GCT would be, and looks exactly like the design of bridge used there.

But the view, if west, must be from Park Avenue, not Third.

The view is from an elevated location, at a 'parking spot' for crosstown cars (see the painted line, and the bystander idly standing in the street?) and I can think of little better a location that would afford such a view than the Third Avenue El structure.  The arch bridge in the distance is exactly where Park Avenue would be, another reason why the view couldn't be taken from there.  And yes, if the view were from Park Avenue you would see the distinctive shape of the 6th Avenue El station (as it existed from 1936 to 1938) squatting in the near distance...

[daveklepper]

The early photo you posted seems to indicate where the IRT Station architects got their "Swiss Chalet" inspiration!

[daveklepper]

 

 

The RR and streetcar tunnel’s mouth was north of 40^th Street, witih tracks reaching street level between there and 42^nd Street.  The Vehicular tunnel’s mouth is just north of 39^th Street, with the road reaching street level just south of 40^th Street.   The ramp to the GCT roadways starts on the north side of 40^th Street.  So, you are correct, the GCT ramp and overpass did exist during streetcar tunnel days, with the streetcar ramp essenrtially under the GCT roadway ramp.

 

The early Baroque 6^th Avenue and 42^nd Street  Station does not seem to my eyes to be the same station as the 1938 station.  Too many detail differences, in windows and roof construction.  I may be wrong.  An explanation is that the photo I posted was at the very time of the IRT improvements, and the old Swiss Chalet had been torn down for the replacement.  But the view, if west, must be from Park Avenue, not Third.

However, if you have a better explanation, I’ll gladly learn

 

[Overmod]

daveklepper

The lack of a Swiss Chalet station at the 6th Avenue elevated in the background dates the photograph at least several years before WWI. but after the short 3rd Avenue to Park Avenue one-block shuttle had been removed. 

Look carefully at the picture again.

6th Avenue and 42nd St in 1879:

That is not measurably different from the pictures I provided of that station in 1938, and as being dismantled, so it was never reduced during that interval to some smaller configuration.  And it was never removed with a long arch being substituted.

Here is a picture of the 6th Avenue station in 1926, two years before the putative date I assigned to your original view.

Note the very distinctive buildings in the background of these pictures.  Note that in the image from "1908" these are measurably further down than the visible bridge... just farther down that we understand the 6th Avenue 'chalet' is behind the visible arch with the cars on it.  If I enlarge the picture to its resolution limit and look carefully, I think I can see some details of the underpinnings of the 6th Avenue station a little further down 42nd... just enough that the visible buildings would be in the correct perspective.

The installation of a free-span arch completely across 42nd St. and its sidewalks was part of the original road 'around' GCT which involved construction of the New York Central building (later the New York General building via some constructive stonecutting in the word 'Central' on the facade, and later still the Helmsley Building) which was dated 1928.  Whether Moses widened and changed that arch to its current form (which might have deeper spandrels) as part of the 'vehicular tunnel' project is an interesting question, but doesn't change that we're looking at a vehicle bridge crossing to GCT.

As I recall, in 1928 there would still be conduit streetcars operating in the Park Avenue tunnel, and would be until 1935 -- that has nothing to do with the ramp across 42nd to the road around Grand Central.  The Moses project extended that.

[daveklepper]

At the time of the photo., west on 42nd Street from 3rd Avernue, the 6th Avenue and 42nd Street station probably resembled this. the 9th Avernue and 42nd Street station at the time of the construction of the 2nd track.

[daveklepper]

The "Swiss Chalet" style of station architecture that prevailed throughout the Manattan Elevated was not by any means original, but was the result of careful upgrading by the IRT just before WWI, the same upgrading that provided a continuous center express track and the hump express stations on all but the 6th Avenue north-south lines.  The wider avenues, 9th, 3rd, and 2nd, had original double-track lines with a space between the tracks that permitted the installation of the continiuous center track.  The two tracks on 6th Avenue were always adjacent.  Indeed, there were centersidings at points on the other three avenues as some locations, even in the steam days.

The lack of a Swiss Chalet station at the 6th Avenue elevated in the background dates the photograph at least several years before WWI. but after the short 3rd Avenue to Park Avenue one-block shuttle had been removed. 

The original Manhattan Elevated stations were quite primitive in comparison.

[Overmod]

If the photo date ends in "8" it would likely be 1928, (not '1908' of course).  Note the bus.

If that is the 6th Avenue El, why are there cars on it, why is it a long arch, and why is it right where GCT would be?  Even in 1938 the Sixth Avenue station remained something of a baroque horror

 And it stayed baroque until its demise in 1939...

 

 

[WILLIAM O CRAIG]

The cars in that photo look more like my Dad's 1928 Buick, not his 1938 Dodge.

[daveklepper]

The overpass was built in 1936-1937 as part of the conversion of the old New York and Harlem RR tunnel from streetcars to "The Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel," I believe the whole business a Robert Moses project.   The overpass is not in the photograph.  (Tunnel clearances were (are) restricted deliberately to exclude buses and trucks.)

The 1908 date was on the photograph.

[MidlandMike]

Looking at the cars, my guess would be more like 1938.  Was the 42nd Street overpass that took Park Avenue around GCT not built yet?

[daveklepper]

View looking west from Third Avenue on 42nd Street in 1908, 6th Ave Elevated in the background:

 

[daveklepper]

Also to dig out the dirt in seldom-used-switch pointwork.

[daveklepper]

Which is what they did.  And the flat blade of the regular TATS-TARS switch-iron was sufficient.

[Overmod]

daveklepper

Needed: space to insert a switch iron to pry it up when access is required.

But that is what the hole in the cover (or notch in the edge of a manhole cover) is supposed to be for.  The edges of the cover have to fit the 'collar' reasonably well to keep dirt and tar from accumulating in the gap.

Now if a different tool comes to be used to remove these covers, say one with a flat blade edge, then leaving a 'slot' to knock dirt out of the space and then pry them up would be sensible.

[daveklepper]

Needed: space to insert a switch iron to pry it up when access is required.

[Overmod]

daveklepper

I remember the access covers with "TARS," but a photo of mine that i just had  scanned shows 3rd Ave.   Possibly both kinds were in use.

Note that neither cover fits the opening it sits in.