For e,ach unit of length, foot or meter, the BMT cars were lighter despite their fifteen inches greater width.
The BMT was very stinfgy with subway third rail rail outdoors. I beieve there was elevated third rail on the Brighton Line (today Q and B).
Hello Dave
Some refined details and info of what you posted on subway car (BMT Standards and IRT Gibbs Cars, - re: weights
BMT Standard motor cars weighed 96, 370 pounds
IRT Gibbs (all motor cars) weighed 89,450 lbs
IRT Deck Roof Hi-V (all motor cars) weighed 83,780 lbs
IRT Hedley Hi-V (all Motor Cars) weighed ---- 77,500 lbs (#'s3700-3756, 3815, 3915), ----- and 81,450 lbs (#'3757-3814, 3816-3914, 3916-4024)
IRT Standard Body Low-V Steinway (All Motor) cars weighed 74,000 lbs
IRT 1939 Worlds Fair low-V Steinway (All Motor) cars weighed 75, 130 lbs
IRT Low-V Motor Cars weighed 77, 700 lbs
Low V and Hi-V TRAILER cars variably weighed about 56,000 lbs.
So as you see, BMT Standards at 10' wide, 67 feet long as opposed to IRT at 8'9" wide , 51 feet long, were HEAVIER than IRT cars.
However, when - as you did - listing the BMT Standard consist lengths by 5 to 7 cars -- and IRT consist lengths at 10 cars -- well, obviously the shorter BMT train would have the advantage of less weight when compared with any class of IRT Cars in 10 car lengths. As the weight numbers indicated would dpeict when the "math" is done !
Regards - Joe F
With reference to the discussion on the Sixth & Ninth thread, note the unprotected elevated-type third rail in the above photographs. BMT practice had one important difference from IRT. Exccept during vtransition periods, BMT did not install subway-type third rail on revrnue tracks used by both elevated and subway trains. But a 5, 6, or 7-car "steel" BMT subway train weighed less and drew less power than a 10-car IRT IRT Gibbs, Flivver, High-V, Steinwau, or Low-V ten-car train. The Stillwell entire-side structural saved lots of weight over the Gibbs gondola-with supertstructure. So despite wood 67-foot cars, the BMT held the currect capacity of the elevated third rail sufficient for its subway trains.
Two photos sent me by Nate Gerstein, unknown photographers, but perhaps a reader can help. Both at Ditmas Avenue Station before the "D" started rnning to coney Island and the ramp (now sed by the "F," and I hope by the "G" in the future, shown incomplete in one photo, was not yet in revenue service. But both photos are post the completion of the Nassau Cut subway costruction in 1935, inaugurating steel-car service on the Culver, at first ding rush hours, becaus the platform has been ct back to accommodate the wider sbway cars.
Contact the Electric Railroaders Association (the website should be www.erausa.org), and you will get help.
Hello, Just recently found this site and the accompanying forums. Love the old BMT photos and I have an interest in the history of the BMT. My grandfather was a motorman employed by the BMT from 1930 until the mid 70's (aged out). I have been unable ascertain any work/employment history during his 40 years. I was just curious if anyone has researched for these type of records and could provide any insight into this research. I have looked at quite a few photos in hopes that I would come across one of him at working - a long shot I know. He loved the job and the union that formed to provide better benefits for the system. Thank you!
Here is the correct photo for the caption originally tied to the Queensboro Plaza Station photo. C-Types headed for Rockaway Avenue westbound at Grant Avene:
You are absolutely correct, and this photo should be on the thread devoted to that 1949 changeover, Thev intended photo will be 0posted as soon as I can implement the needed corrections to defects do to aging in poor storage condiions.
HELLO DAVE ---
Hello Dave K (and all)This IS NOT a "C TYPE" and is NOT at Grant Avenue Station -- the photo below IS a BMT "Q" Type and IS in a view looking west on the upper level, northern track island platform of the BMT North-Half of Queensboro Plaza Station, Queens. It is a BMT Lines Shuttle and will head out to either Astoria or Flushing Terminals. I date it about mid to late 1940's. A Good photo !
Please CORRECT your caption on your files. I have also sent this to others on our mail list to update them ! PS: This north half of the complex was abandoned by Dec. 1949, and the BMT's north hald part of this (seen in photo) structure removed in early thru mid 1962 ! Regards - Joe F
"A westbound Fulton Street C-Typr, leaving Grant Avenue Station on Liberty Avenue, heading toward Atlantc Avenue Station, and then to Rockaway Avenue on Fulton Street, where most passsengers will use a paper trasnsfer and board an "A' to continue to downtown Brooklyn and Mahattan."
This was the wrong caption bas is really applicable to a photo in a following post. Instead, this the north track of the upper level of Qeensboro Plaza Station, with a Flushing-bound BMT Q-Type train.
View east from Grant Avenue Station. with a Lexingto Avenue Elevated train, having just reversed in a center track, approaching the station on its return to downtown Brooklyn, Bridge and Jay Streets, where most passengers will use a paper transfer to the "A" or to PCC streetcars to cross the Brooklyn Bridge.
A Myrtle Avenue train on the right, and a Lexington Avenue train on the left have arrived at Bridge and Jay Streets.
On the north and of the platform, a Lexington Avenue train is about to depart toward Grant Avenue.
A Myrtle Avenue train leaving the Metropolitan Avenue northern terminal in December 1947. Thirty and possibly forty years earlier, the same photograph could have been taken, except the small white front sign wiould have read "Park Row,' instead of "Bridge and Jay Streets."
Like the BMT 'gate cars" used in the rush hour "not enough steel cars" West End Bay Parkway - Coney Islan shuttle, the ex-2nd Avenue cars were equpped with suvbvway-type 3rd-rail shoes for Dyer Avenue - East 180th 5t St. service.
Also, as you well know -- IRT EL all-Motor Gate cars of the 12 paired windows body style (1901 to 1910 era as built motorized new) continued to run until I believe May 1953 on the Dyre Line -- I rode them there also a number of times for joyrides. And then they were replaced by the "Manual Operated Doors" Deck Roof and Hedley Hi-V Motor Cars after that on the Dyre shuttles.. whichh I also rode. Until they were replaced by May 6, 1957 when thru mainline trains of alternately Steinways and Low-V Cars operated the Dyre Line direct towards Manhattan - thru the finally opened flyover track connection.
regards - Joe F
All this is correct. The one exception bto ehat I wrote is that after June 1940 until end of 2nd Ave. Queens sevice in 1942, gate cars continued to provide most, if not all, of the Queens 2nd Avenue service. I just do not remember any MUDCs in Queens.
Hello Dave !!
I wrote "the 2nd Ave EL was gone" (meaning in the Yorkville area photo being under direct discussion of course) by 1941 -- the last of the E.60th street to E.128th street part structure was gone by Jan 1941. I more properly should have written about that "specific" northern part of the line re: its demolition time frame, but I assumed you would readily understand that with relation to the Yorkville photo and its timeline.
I am very long well aware that the southern part of the 2nd Ave EL remained in operation from Queens (via Q-Boro bridge) to City Hall and South Ferry Manhattan terminals until June 1942 when that part of the line was closed and later demolished.
Also, the short one block "stub" part of the 2nd Ave EL was left standing from E.128th to 129th streets (where it was attached to the 3rd Ave El Harlem River Bridge approach) and was demolishe later, along with the tiny short yard along the east side of 2nd Ave. jutting towards the Harlem River edge, and the 128th Street former 2nd Av EL Shops and few remaining layup tracks, in 1950. They were used by the 3rd Ave El line until then. All that structure was removed along with the E.99th St / 3rd Ave yards and shops. Leaving just the E.129th Street Station structure of the 3rd Ave El remaining over E. 129th Street.
I will take YOUR word for the "no gate car locals" after 1940 on the 3rd Ave EL -- even tho many photos exist (some in publications) showing gate cars on local tracks as dated 1945, 46, 47, 48. These like you say, were likely "express deadheads" returning to layup after their express runs. Like the Composite Car and Q type Car express trains did also.
Your statement would make sense as all the surplus MUDC EL cars from the 6th, 2nd and 9th Ave EL closings would thus be moved to all local (and some express) 3rd Ave services. I did ride gates on 3rd Ave in 1949 & 50, but I don't remember them as locals -- they were expresses. A lot of stored gate cars were placed back in service to replace Composites being removed in late 1949-thru early 1950 so their trucks could be placed under their replacement cars, the ex-BMT Q Types from BMT Queens shuttle services.. Of course I am aware you also know all this -- I submit it for less informed readers !
Glad to have helped you Dave, in that photo location -- thats what historians like you and I do !
Regards ! - Joe F
1. I don't need to starnd in the corner, because your correction also requires correction!
2. The 2nd Avenue Elevated from 57th Street to 129th Street ceased operating in June, 1940 and was demolished during the resr of the year. From 57th Street south to Chatham Square in 1942.
3. On Third Avenue, after June 1940, open-platform (gate) cars were never ever used in local service, only in rush=hour Through-Express service, and operated light oposite the direction of heavy passenger traffic, on the local track, just like the composies that provided most of the Through Express service-- untiil the Q-Types replaced the composites and gate cars, and the trucks of the comoposites started to be transferred to the Qs. Thus, for a short time, most of the Through Express service was provided by gate-cars. But no local service after 1940 on the Third Avenue Elevated.
4. Thanks, and I'll straighten my files accordingly.
Posted by Dave Klepper (quoted)
"But going back 74 years, while photographing the DeKalb Avenue streetcar line, I glanced sideways toward Lexington Avenue, spied an elevated train, and was in-time to catch its last car"
==================================================
Hi Dave!
The teacher wants you to stand in the corner for one hour - heh -- regarding this photo below of yours that I patched in ABOVE !
THAT photo belongs in your IRT "3rd Ave EL" Thread, Dave ! Its very far away from downtown Brooklyn and the Brooklyn BMT Lexington Avenue EL !!! I know that because this photo is in my old MANHATTAN neighborhood -- West on E. 86th Street.
Is IS actually looking west from 2nd Avenue, Manhattan, along East 86th street (along south side of street) showing the rear car of an IRT UPTOWN 3rd AVE EL LOCAL train having just passed over E.86th St heading to the E. 89th Street Local Station.
The white sided (actually tan brick) building to the right of the last EL car is the famed F W Woolworth store and building on the N/E corner of 3rd Ave, and next to it's right is the famed German Restaurant, Club and Dance Hall of Yorkville, later called the CORSO at 205 E. 86th St.. As you well remember, the IRT 2nd Ave EL was gone from 2nd Ave. just a few years before, by 1941 !
You may have shot that photo at the same day while you were in Yorkville (Manhattan) at age 16 in 1946 when you shot those 2 great photos looking south aslong 3rd Avenue, from N/E corner of E. 86th Street - of TARS trolley cars heading uptown and stopped under the El tracks at the SE corner of 3rd Ave.
BELOW is a more current (well, 1970's) photo looking west due north towards that N/E corner with the now modernized FW Woolworth store and its building . The El was been gone since Dec 1955 ! The Woolworth is gone and replaced with huge hi-rise around 2008. Gimbels replaced the old RKO at the (one block west) NW corner of Lexington Avenue at E. 86th Street as seen in below 1970's photo; My uncle managed that Loews in the 1940's thru 60's !
Anyway Dave, thanks for that mis-placed Yorkville nostalgic photo --- just as I remember it countless times at that location living and growing up in the 1940's-60's era.
Before the "A'" ra to Lefferts Avenue. A C-type Fulton Street and then a Lexington gate trsin near Grant Avrnue Stastion on Liberty Avenue. A C-type Fulton train on Pitkin Avenue. Front of a C-type at Rockaway Avenue, then the Elevated's post-Unification western terminal with free transfer to the "A" downstairs.
None of this track exists today, only the Liberty Avenue stryucture and track east of Grant Avenue to Lefferts Avenue.
If this material interests you, you might wish to visit the South Brooklyn thread on the Trains Magazine Forum.
Also, Eric Oszustowicz's The Elevated Railway's of Brooklyn and the BMT Subway, Vol. !, 1864-1940, 1st Edition, is now available from the Electric Railroaders Association and is every way comparable to the fine books published by the CERA. Differences are that Eric's book has far more reproductions of historic documents than the typical CERA book, and that the extremely complex history of the rapid-transit lines means a much more complex book organization. Still, it is an organization that is useful and makes sense. Some photos included are woppers. There are a few errors, and a short list of corrections is promised.
Contact the ERA for pricw, shipping, etc.
The history of the South Brooklyn is included.
I can provise price information if that won't be considered advertising. I remain an ERA member and a long time ago had two terms as President.
Most readers know about the large Coney Island Shop and Yard complex, but may wonder wher did Brooklyn rapid transit and streetcars get overhauls and repairs, before that shop was opened in 1927.
The 39th Street Shop was bult by the South Brooklyn Railroad shortly before 1900, and was transferred to the Brooklyn Rapid Transit in 1920.
In 1932 it was coverted to bw the shop for the BMT's bus subsidiary.
In 1952 it was replaced by the TA by the present massive East New York facility that serves buses from all boroughs.
The property was sold to a steel pipe company, that used the South Brooklyn freight business, and they sold the property to Costico, that uses it today. Somebody local can inform us if they ever use their freight siding.
A really great website for all interested in BMT history, especially the rolling stock. including "New York's best subway car" (scrapped 1957):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiJYRQuEtJo
Jeff Erlitz reports to me that both tracks are in and usable, and occasionally there is a passenger movement to and from Canarsie via the Broadway Brooklyn Elevated and the Wiliamsburg Bridge. This was the rush-hour route that used these tracks durihng thr Classic Period. The 14th Street - Lefferts rush hour "Multi" tra8ins used tracks now missing with the end of the elevated stucture on Pitkin Avenue, and the "A" running to Grant Avenue and Lefferts Avernue.
I should note that the N bypasses Pacific Street most of the time. Does the D during rush hour?
There is now a plaque on the still-existing headhouse for the IRT Atlantic Avenue Station. Originally the station was just an island-platform, two-track, termnal station, the southern terminal of the original subway's Brooklyn Extension. But, before WWI, under the Dual Contracts, the second IRT East-River Tunnel brought the outside two tracks and the side platforms, so the station serves the 4 and 5 at the inside platorm and the 2 and 3 at the outside platorms. And within fare-control one can reach the Q and B at their Atlantic Avenue Station, the A and C at the Jay Street - Borough Hall Station, and the D, N, and R at their Pacific Street Station. Outside fare control and also an underground right-of-way currently without track, are passeges to the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Terminal.
The above is currrent, sent by another MIT-Senior-House alumnus.
But going back 74 years, while photographing the DeKalb Avenue streetcar line, I glanced sideways toward Lexington Avenue, spied an elevated train, and was in-time to catch its last car: (Except that Joe Frank corrected me and explained thatv I must have been at 2nde Avenue & 86th Street, Msnhsttan, his neighbolrhood, andv photographed a 3rd Avenue Thru Express gate-car train's last car northbound or 1st car light-move southbound.
Just received frm a fellow MIT OLd-Senior-House Alimnus, Flatbush & Atlantic:
Jeff Erlitz forwarded me a great summer 1950 (last year for the Lex. El.) picture at Lexington Avenue and Grand Street in Brooklyn. By 1950, only four, five, or six of the window panels of the 1300-series composite convertible motor cars were replaced by summer panels. Notice the cavass shades drawn, since some riders wanted sun protection. Note there are two trains in this picture. The full-viewed 1300 is the first car of a train moving north, left-to-right in the picture, and the 900-series trailer, which saw service behind steam, is on the far track, and its lead 1300 motor's platform gate is also visible.
Compare with the much earlier Flatbush and Atlantic picture when all summer panels were used on convertables.
"Of course what appeared the day of the test was precisely the same questions on the same piece of paper."
I am reminded of my final year examinations where we were expecting a question on a reduction gear for use between an aero engine and its propellor.
A friend and I tried separately to work on a sample question in our nominated textbook, which fortunately had an answer in the back of the book, this on the morning of the examination.
We applied rather unthinkingly the procedure we had been shown, but we both failed to get the printed answer.
Finally, my colleague came down to my cubicle and explained that we had been applying the the formula unthinkingly. In the example we had been given, gear A meshed with B and gear C meshed with gear D. In the textbook, gear A meshed with C and B with D.
We both worried abut how we had wasted our time on a simple question by not paying attention.
Come the exam, we turned over the paper and saw that the first question was the question from the textbook with even the numerical values unchanged.
For the only time in my life, I wrote he answer at the bottom of the page and filled in the working backwards because I knew every step in the process backwards.
It appears that nobody else in the class had checked the textbook, and my friend and I topped that class.
And I don't think I'm related to Overmod's maths teacher.
Peter
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