US mail was a large commodity on the Northern Pacific. A train brief from the "Mainstreeter" during the US mail time was for two RPO's out of St. Paul. One went to Jamestown, ND and was turned for the next day. Both RPO ends were together. A man I knew named Art was on the St. Paul to Jamestown route. It seems that he had several days off between runs.
Ed Burns
I remember seeing a photograph of a baggage cart that had an extra platform bolted to the main frame to place the casket level with the baggage car floor.
The most expensive RPOs were the nine 85' Budd built ones delivered to Union Pacific in August 1963, which remained in service as RPOs only until September 1967. UP still carried storage mail until 1971. 60 foot RPO with 21 foot storage section. All of them were donated to the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley after some service as MofW tool cars, six sold to VIA in 1993.
Wierdest mail storage cars were MPs low roofed 85 footers, so built because the Post office payed by the foot for mail storage...
OvermodWas in the restored RPO at VMT yesterday. There was an official notice, I believe over the Postmaster-General's signature...
Thanks to Jones1945 (and the Nevada Northern) we now know the signature was that of the General Superintendent of the Railway Mail Service.
Overmod Was in the restored RPO at VMT yesterday. There was an official notice, I believe over the Postmaster-General's signature, that no one 'from outside' was to ride in a mail car at any time, and that the conductor was to be summoned if there was any problem. Someone can probably find a picture of one of these and post (pun intended) a link.
Was in the restored RPO at VMT yesterday. There was an official notice, I believe over the Postmaster-General's signature, that no one 'from outside' was to ride in a mail car at any time, and that the conductor was to be summoned if there was any problem. Someone can probably find a picture of one of these and post (pun intended) a link.
From: Nevada Northern Railway
To: Classic Trains Forum, Internet.
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I guess this was one of the most expensive RPOs ever built in NA. NYC #5022 "John A. Dix" - Budd baggage-mail. John Adams Dix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams_Dix
My favorite one:
The cutest one:
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
RPO "apartments" came in three standard sizes, 15, 30 and 60 ft. The 60 ft. "apartment" was typically an entire car, where the shorter ones were part of various RPO-Baggage, RPO-Coach or even RPO-Baggage-Coach combinations.
Man, that was some GOOD stuff from Mike all right!
That photo of those Marines, from their "Barracks Covers" (that's hats in Marine-speak) down to their spit-shined shoes, those guys mean business!
And those words from Colonel Taylor's article, such as...
"The Marine at his post of duty with orders to shoot to kill, thus depriving professional bondsmen, spineless jurors, political dominated judges, and shyster lawyers from defeating the laws of the land."
"The Marines...newly acquired slogan "A dead bandit is a good bandit..."
I've said it before in other posts on other subjects, people were TOUGH back then! Some, if not most of them anyway.
Marine Mail Guards... courtesy Mike
Flintlock76 I did some further checking, and it looks like it was a robbery of a mail truck and killing of the driver that brought Marines back in 1926. For those interested, here's the whole story from Marine historic records. www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/mailguards.html I've revised my original post on this subject a bit. Wjstix, I'm surprised those armed mail clerks didn't have to qualify with those revolvers on a somewhat regular basis, say once a year. I suppose the Post Office assumed the deterrant factor of armed men in the car was good enough.
I did some further checking, and it looks like it was a robbery of a mail truck and killing of the driver that brought Marines back in 1926.
For those interested, here's the whole story from Marine historic records.
www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/mailguards.html
I've revised my original post on this subject a bit.
Wjstix, I'm surprised those armed mail clerks didn't have to qualify with those revolvers on a somewhat regular basis, say once a year. I suppose the Post Office assumed the deterrant factor of armed men in the car was good enough.
Interesting, Wayne. I just read about the story of the Rondout train robbery in 1924:
"The thieves then threw bottles of noxious formaldehyde into the windows of the passenger cars, leaving the train’s 17 armed mail clerks gasping for air. When the guards surrendered, the bandits made off with several mail sacks containing a staggering $3 million in cash and bonds. The gang escaped in their cars, but in the confusion of the robbery, an accomplice accidentally shot one of the Newton brothers several times. The thieves were later arrested after they tried to get medical assistance in Chicago.( https://www.history.com/news/6-daring-train-robberies )"The mail clerks, in this case, needed more than a firearm but an armored RPO to protect themselves... O wait, the whole train should be armored.
Flintlock76 Thanks for posting that film Balt! It was very interesting to see just what went on in those railcars, especially if you're like me and have seen them in rail museums but with little interpretation of the mail clerks jobs. And it was interesting to see they were "packin' heat" to deter mail robberies.
Thanks for posting that film Balt! It was very interesting to see just what went on in those railcars, especially if you're like me and have seen them in rail museums but with little interpretation of the mail clerks jobs.
And it was interesting to see they were "packin' heat" to deter mail robberies.
My dad's first job with the post office in 1943 was working as a mail clerk at night out of the main post office in downtown Minneapolis, going to and from the nearby Great Northern and Milwaukee Road stations to pick up and drop off mail. He said the postal clerks normally have very small sidearms; he said he was concerned what would happen if they ever had to shoot them, since from all their years on the trains many clerks had a bad case of 'the shakes' and might not be able to aim a gun very accurately.
My dad had to be armed too, but he was usually assigned a large (possibly Spanish-American war) pistol that he described as being more like a small hand-cannon than a pistol. However, the gun was always in perfect condition, as the post office had a full-time gunsmith on duty with his own maintenance and repair shop in the main post office basement.
Jones1945 Deggesty As I recall, possibly from information found in passenger timetables, the charge for carrying a corpse was a first class fare--perhaps because some people had tried to travel at a lower cost by pretending to be a corpse. Certainly, respect would be shown for the deceased when a casket was handled. I think the fare was reasonable, it is like an administrative charge nowadays. But for the family who couldn't afford the fare, assistance from the church might be needed.
Deggesty As I recall, possibly from information found in passenger timetables, the charge for carrying a corpse was a first class fare--perhaps because some people had tried to travel at a lower cost by pretending to be a corpse. Certainly, respect would be shown for the deceased when a casket was handled.
As I recall, possibly from information found in passenger timetables, the charge for carrying a corpse was a first class fare--perhaps because some people had tried to travel at a lower cost by pretending to be a corpse.
Certainly, respect would be shown for the deceased when a casket was handled.
I think the fare was reasonable, it is like an administrative charge nowadays. But for the family who couldn't afford the fare, assistance from the church might be needed.
The robbery of MILW 57 at Rondout in 1924 was an inside job (one of the Postal Inspectors was in on the job) and is known as the last Mail train robbery in the United States.
Did you know Marines were assigned to mailcars once?
Back in 1921 there was a rash of RPO robberies, and some clerks were killed. The Postmaster General asked President Harding what could be done about it, and the President said he'd loan him some Marines. Over 2000 were deployed to RPO cars and mail facilities around the nation. All were armed with .45 automatic pistols and shotguns, two to an RPO car, and ordered to "...shoot to wound or kill..." anyone who attempted to rob the car. Navy Secretary Denby said "I want the mails to get through, or dead Marines in the mailcars!" Denby was a former Marine himself.
Robberies stopped almost overnight. There was a brief resurgence in 1926, Marines were deployed again, and the robberies stopped for good.
Semper Fi!
Thank you for sharing your first-hand experience of working on the baggage car as well as the video, BaltACD. After watching the video, I think I am ready to report for duty.
Worked the B&O's depot at Salem, IL in 1966-67. Several times I had to handle caskets of returning Viet Nam war casualties. Handling a casket with 3 people (the baggageman, the funeral home herse driver and myself) was a real chore - made more so be the need to reamain respectful of the deceased.
On RPO's the mail clerks were all armed and the doors to the RPO would be kept locked. Remember, in the day, it was not uncommon for money and negotiable securities to be sent between parties via US Mail and the mail could be a target for theives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w-Tgu6HSVQ
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Certainly, respect would be shown for the deceased when a casket was ahndled.
Johnny
wjstix In a military / wartime situation, I don't know if some branches of the military may have had some rule about having a uniformed escort ride the train with the deceased soldier or sailor. I think, if possible, someone would try to be there to meet the train, like a small color guard (local military members if near a base, or perhaps American Legion / VFW). I know in the movie "Giant" (1955) there's a scene set in WW2 where a soldier's remains are brought home by train to a small town in Texas. Quick search didn't yield a clip. Since that was filmed so close to WW2 and Korean war, I'd assume the scene would have been at least pretty close to reality in that situation.
In a military / wartime situation, I don't know if some branches of the military may have had some rule about having a uniformed escort ride the train with the deceased soldier or sailor. I think, if possible, someone would try to be there to meet the train, like a small color guard (local military members if near a base, or perhaps American Legion / VFW).
I know in the movie "Giant" (1955) there's a scene set in WW2 where a soldier's remains are brought home by train to a small town in Texas. Quick search didn't yield a clip. Since that was filmed so close to WW2 and Korean war, I'd assume the scene would have been at least pretty close to reality in that situation.
Thank you, wjstix. Those are some useful information for my research. By the way, I found the scene in the movie "Giant":
After posting my earlier post, I found this - seems to have some good info.
https://www.historynet.com/last-train-home.htm
Flintlock76 Jeez, this thread's topic reminds me of this Gilded Age laugh riot... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU4S3G4_rJo
Jeez, this thread's topic reminds me of this Gilded Age laugh riot...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU4S3G4_rJo
Thanks, Wayne. I think you are the best DJ on the Classic Trains forum.
Some background of the song:http://digitalcollections.uark.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/OzarkFolkSong/id/654/rec/1
On a regular passenger train, Railway Post Office cars normally would have been locked and off-limits to passengers and to the railroad train crew. In some cars that were part baggage and part RPO, there was only a small crawlway that could be opened in an emergency so an RPO clerk could go into the baggage section of the car. On a mail train, and RPO sometimes would be open so it could be placed next to a baggage car holding sacks of mail (or between two such cars) so that the clerks could sort the bagged mail while on route.
Baggage cars generally weren't so strict. I'm sure if a family member riding with a dead person in a coffin wanted to go to the baggage car to check on their loved one, the baggage clerk in the car wouldn't object.
As far as the actual transport of deceased people in coffins, it would basically be handled like baggage or a large parcel. Railroad workers I'm sure would be as careful as possible when loading the remains into the car, but as far as I know it wouldn't have been given any special treatment otherwise.
This is a question I wanted to ask for so long but never actually make a post for it. IIRC, for those secondary trains or overnight named train which didn't have a dormitory car attached to the consist, the staff or people who were working on the RPO slept or took paid time off inside the baggage car. I guess it was common during World War II when trains were always fully packed with the passenger. Since there were different people kept going in and out of the baggage car, I believe the doors were not locked by the staff for convenience purposes, even though it might be supposed to be locked (especially when there was a coffin or casket inside the baggage car). I heard stories told by the train crew, but haven't read of stories told by baggageman yet.
I now think of even more questions: was there any special arrangement for the soldier who came home in the coffin during World War II? (no offense!) What was the instruction and procedure for the train crew of different railroads when handling the soldier's coffins and their family members?
On another forum, someone also said that they seldom saw the end doors locked. They also said passengers were never allowed in the baggage car. He also said cross country trains always had a baggageman working in the baggage car sorting railroad mail, organizing baggage, sorting newspaper bundles and parcels. So, no one could have slipped in under ordinary circumstances. He said, at stops the front of the train was very busy with changing engines, the mail car, and sometimes the baggage car. He said the baggage car would have been being loaded and unloaded and it would have been unlikely anyone entered the car from either the ends or the outside at stops other than employees. Does that seem like a fair assessment?
Some additional considerations: Johnny is right that this likely wasn't a train with high-level platform access working baggage at every stop, and it's unlikely that an 8-year-old would be helped up from the ballast at every stop by the baggage man ... but I think it's a safe bet that would happen if a tearful kid wanted to check on his mom at every stop. Same idea for conductors leaving the forward door open or even going with the kid to 'make sure'.
I thought the doors were locked when there was high value 'express' or other such content on the car or when there was no one actually 'watching' inside it between stations.
In this modern litigious world can you imagine letting an 8-year-old repeatedly go into a baggage car on a moving train? (Or a typical Antrak car attendant faced with this situation agreeing to accompany him there repeatedly?)
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