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PRR Fleet of Modernism (1938-1947) integrated discussion

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, May 10, 2021 7:10 AM

Before the 1947 ICC order, PRR may have had some segments where 100MPH operation was OK.  The cab signal system certainly met ICC requirements for 100MPH operation.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, June 18, 2021 3:25 AM

 Liberty Limited in the early 1940s, at least 7 cars in the consist are FOM equipment.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, July 2, 2021 7:37 AM

April 1941

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 5:41 AM

In 1969, while working at Chicago-area office of Bolt Beranek and Newman, I had a project at Princeton U., with a budget that allowed travel on the Broadway Limited in a Duplex Room.   These are the two photos from that journey, just before boarding at Chicago Union Station, and a photo inside the room.

Reviving thid thread was time-consumung.  "Creek" on the "Search" (for Creek-class sleepers) broght many many threads not in any way related.  But why should "Modernism" bring threads related not only just "modern," but even just "mod" as in "model?"  The Kalmbach "Search" needs repair. 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 17, 2022 4:17 AM

The 'Search the Community' feature currently appears to suffer from something that enraged me back when I was involved in digital-library proposals: the search engine happily and idiotically takes the words in the search string as ORs rather than ANDs, which is precisely the opposite senantics that most users would expect.  The longer and more detailed the search string you enter, the more words the results will incorporate, and Heaven help you if you leave an 'and' or 'the' or other common word that hasn't been hard-coded out of consideration.

By the mid-Nineties one consideration that had been added was that a string delimited by double quotes would be treated as a single, often fully case-sensitive string to match.  Google the  screwed with this from time to time by 'helpfully' interpreting what it thought you might have mistyped and then shoveling results that saved you from yourself; they sorta got around this with the 'did you mean...' prompt but all too often it still goes off retrieving things you can't get it to ignore.

Fortunately the old pre-intelligence trick still appears to work: type the conditional operators in CAPS between the words to get the results you need; in this case something like "PRR AND Fleet AND Modernism" (This produced at least 3 references to this thread on the first page of results, not counting the 'most recent' where the thread was just revived.)

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Posted by SSW9389 on Saturday, December 17, 2022 6:43 AM

Is it known if the Pennsy ordered just E6As or did they also order E6 boosters? There are EMD order blanks in both the E300s and E400s from that time frame. 

The first Pennsy order for E7As would have been in very late 1944 or early 1945. The War Production Board lifted the restriction on passenger diesels in December 1944. 

Ed in Kentucky 

Overmod

 

 
rcdrye
 
Overmod

This leads me to wonder if there are proposed paint schemes for the prospective E6 order in the early '40s...

Streamlined Atlantics?

 

That would have been E8s.

 

 

 
Oh, you must mean EP20s.

 

They never got them, so they stayed E6s.  In any case, in 1942 they'd have been EP1 and anything else pushed up in the series accordingly before revised.

 

Interesting to consider what the E7s would be if the slantnose EMDs had taken EP20 'first'.  

 

 

 

[/quote]

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 17, 2022 10:02 AM

According to the records at the Hagley the order was for an A-A pair.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 18, 2022 2:07 AM

The test operation, and or4dering one set only was clearly a test, was for the Red Arrow, NYC - Detroit.   Using the E6 pair eliminated the need to change from road power to a switcher, because the elevated RoW leading to the Fort St. Sta. could not support a K4's weight.  The diesel consist had to be double-ended to elimate the long light-engine move to the regular steam PRR facilities in Detroit.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 18, 2022 2:49 AM

Thanks for the tip on how to use the Search button!

I rode the Red Arrow many times.  Both in coach, because the 44-passenger long-distance PRR coiaches were more comfortable than the handsomer Budd coaches on the Central's Wolverine, and when earning a living and stopping off in Philadelphia, in a roomette.  One of the earliest trips, while still an MIT student, had a K4 West of Harrisburg.

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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, December 19, 2022 3:41 AM

daveklepper

The test operation, and or4dering one set only was clearly a test, was for the Red Arrow, NYC - Detroit.   Using the E6 pair eliminated the need to change from road power to a switcher, because the elevated RoW leading to the Fort St. Sta. could not support a K4's weight.  The diesel consist had to be double-ended to elimate the long light-engine move to the regular steam PRR facilities in Detroit.

 

That dovetails with the W. A. "Bill" Gardner story in the January 1979 Trains. See "A Reputation for Reliability" pp 48-51. Gardner tells of the first Pennsy E7As being delivered, set up and on the Detroit run from Harrisburg. 

Was it also possible that the Pennsy's E6As were considered for the new South Wind train operating from Chicago to Florida? Both the L&N and ACL had early E units.

Suffice to say that if the Pennsy had those first two trial E6As it would have been an easier decision to order E7As in quantity from EMD in early 1945. Those two E6s would have racked up over 350,000 service miles by the time a decision would have to be made on wether to purchase new steam or diesel.

Ed in Kentucky

Tags: E6A E7A
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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, December 20, 2022 12:01 PM

SSW9389
Was it also possible that the Pennsy's E6As were considered for the new South Wind train operating from Chicago to Florida?

This would seem flawlessly logical: the original consist was only 7 cars (of Budd stock built new), and the competing trains both boasted E units competing with some of the most colorful schemes GM could deploy.

On the other hand, if I recall correctly L&N and PRR both used their contemporary steamlined steam on this train, so the use of a single test consist on the more controlled Harrisburg-Detroit service would have made better sense...

Interesting that the Red Arrow became a bastion of the Baldwin BP-20s when they came into service; they feature prominently in an infamous wreck of that train only a couple of years after they entered service...

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Posted by engineer5007 on Saturday, March 9, 2024 8:11 PM

[quote user="Miningman"]

The Fleet of Modernism certainly was a worthy competitor to anything the New York Central put out. Seeing those cars behind T1's or anything streamlined was certainly quite stunning. It's just another mind boggling 'why' when they abandoned it in 1945.  Having everything repainted by 1950 seems like such a waste. 

It's hard not to fault the Railroads for re-equipping their fleets after WWII yet they knew passenger service never really made much for them anyway, if anything. They knew this and knew it well. Mail contracts and Express gave them some incentive and the service itself was the advertising and 'face' of the Railroad, that hopefully translates into good will and freight preference. I think they knew full well what they were doing. They could not see the massive drop off coming due to a new highway system yet to be built and airline travel becoming commonplace. It's arguable that they should have but given the times I don't think that's reasonable. Once the crappola hit the fan they certainly railed against the government involvement in the economy with highway construction, airport's and the St. Lawrence Seaway, leaving them doomed.  

Roads in 1945-early 50's were pretty crummy between cities, not really direct. Winter weather was a big hazardous deal for motorists, roads not cleared in quick time like today. People still took the train if they were going anywhere substantial. 

The 1952 Congessional was a departure for Pennsy with it's look. Some people, notably David Klepper, thought it was the finest look for the Pennsy. My choice would be the Fleet of Modernism, as short lived as it was. 

 

Thank you for mentioning when the FOM caes were repainted.  This info is important to modelers who want to model a particuar time.  BTW - Bachmann has just announced FOM passenger cars in N scale. BTW - do you know whether Pbr cars ever saw PC service?  I understand there were still 14 on the roster at merger by I don't know if they were actually active.  The one converted to commuter service was active at south station for years into the merger  I have a very poor partial photo.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 19, 2024 6:15 AM

After a great deal no thought, I have to change my mind, and agree that the 1938 Broadway, with the "Fleet of Modernism" paint scheme, and a matching streamlined K4 up front, as an even molre beautiful picture than the Congressuional and Seantor 1952 Budd consists behind even a red GG-1.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, March 20, 2024 8:24 AM

daveklepper
After a great deal no thought, I have to change my mind, and agree that the 1938 Broadway, with the "Fleet of Modernism" paint scheme, and a matching streamlined K4 up front, as an even molre beautiful picture than the Congressuional and Seantor 1952 Budd consists behind even a red GG-1.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder (beer holder?).

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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