Jones1945, way back on this thread you gave the 1946 total number of passenger service cars for the PRR as 3416. Did that include MU electrics and doodlebugs?
daveklepper Jones1945, way back on this thread you gave the 1946 total number of passenger service cars for the PRR as 3416. Did that include MU electrics and doodlebugs?
daveklepper, I am going to post the source if I can find it in my archive. IIRC it is a chart will brief detail.
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Dave, this is the only source of that figure I can find:
1
2
3
Highly amused at the relative time of the two trains, and the very different approach to handling them.
NYC sends the train out early -- really, as early as possible given the fixed time of the Century's departure -- and runs the thing on accelerated Century time (compare the number of stops and dwell involved for the coach train vs. the Century, and the added time doubtless involved in transiting Cleveland with a couple of engine changes) to get in with under-16-hour running (net of the time change).
Then look how carefully the prose is crafted to draw the eye away from how slow the PRR train was, both as carded and as run. It would be interesting to see what power PRR used west of Harrisburg on this train ... and I note that even with the longer time, PRR was carrying substantially fewer passengers, by what looks suspiciously like a full coach-load or more.
Anyone have the comparison timings for the two trains in the postwar years from late 1945 to about mid-1947? Or any west-end timing splits using the S1 or S2 as power?
Overmod Highly amused at the relative time of the two trains, and the very different approach to handling them. NYC sends the train out early -- really, as early as possible given the fixed time of the Century's departure -- and runs the thing on accelerated Century time (compare the number of stops and dwell involved for the coach train vs. the Century, and the added time doubtless involved in transiting Cleveland with a couple of engine changes) to get in with under-16-hour running (net of the time change). Then look how carefully the prose is crafted to draw the eye away from how slow the PRR train was, both as carded and as run. It would be interesting to see what power PRR used west of Harrisburg on this train ... and I note that even with the longer time, PRR was carrying substantially fewer passengers, by what looks suspiciously like a full coach-load or more.
Compelling indeed! Not only the Pacemaker of NYC leaving earlier but the total running time was at least one hour shorter than the Trail Blazer of PRR, but surprisingly the Trail Blazer carried about 10% more passenger than the Pacemaker at least in the first two years (132000:114000 in 1st Year, 175000:167000 in 2nd Year) in contrast to the maiden run (July 28, 1939) of both trains (385:350 Westbound, 285:240 Eastbound)!
The NYC used heavyweight/betterment cars on the Pacemaker but provide a faster schedule. The PRR exclusively constructed at least two completely "new" consists for the Trail Blazer with rebuilt betterment cars but a little bit slower schedule compared to the NYC all-coach train. I think both trains were doing great during WWII but I do want to know which one carried more passengers after July 1941. I have seen 14-car consist of Trail Blazer in photographs but hardly can find a photo of the Pacemaker. I probably need to spend more time on NYCRR's book or people put more focus on the Century train.
OvermodAnyone have the comparison timings for the two trains in the postwar years from late 1945 to about mid-1947? Or any west-end timing splits using the S1 or S2 as power?
I want to know as well! In the early postwar years, it was the PRR T1, streamlined or poppet valve-geared K4s #5399 "fighting against" NYC's S-1/S-2 or destreamlined Hudsons. Very romantic in American railroading history when the countries best or newest machine competing for the same market. The westbound schedule of Trail Blazer shortened to 15hrs 30mins in the early 1950s.
Jones1945Compelling indeed! Not only the Pacemaker of NYC leaving earlier but the total running time was at least one hour shorter than the Trail Blazer of PRR,,,
It was pretty clear to me that there were folks at the Central who were 'in tune' with the spirit of that first eastbound run of the second Super Chief consist...
Not only did they cut their little publicity show short about as soon as every seat was filled ... they ran the thing artificially fast en route. Doubtless to 'make the news' with a timing that would stick in people's minds as what to expect when they took the production train...
... In the early postwar years, it was the PRR T1, streamlined or poppet valve-geared K4s #5399 "fighting against" NYC's S-1/S-2 or destreamlined Hudsons.
Much more likely that it was doubleheaded K4s competing against J3as and Niagaras, a great deal of the time. It is hard to beat an 80"-drivered twelve-coupled articulated unless your railroad supports very long stretches of sustained high speed...
Now, I am tempted to wonder what two K4s rebuilt by Lima with poppets and vastly-improved superheaters might have done if balanced and suspension-modified to make T1-comparable (or at least N&W J-comparable) speed. Of course we know that would rapidly become self-defeating with the great majority of PRR's coaches...
Very romantic in American railroading history when the countries best or newest machine competing for the same market.
Except that everyone by that point knew true high speed was essentially synonymous with Diesels and motor trains by that point. NYC recognized this very early, first with Dieseliners and then with the time reductions that only diesels made possible -- even a C1a with no fuel stop would find a 15h45' carding difficult. PRR recognized it too, but had trouble getting diesels that would stand the required pace on the existing ROW. And by the time they did... it was essentially 'game over' as the game was worth playing. The 1958 Broadway proved that dramatically if it had not been fully clear before.
The westbound schedule of Trail Blazer shortened to 15hrs 30mins in the early 1950s.
Remember that this would include an hour for the time change; what was the eastbound carding? Even so, you'd likely only achieve this practically with diesels or the equivalent.
Overmod It was pretty clear to me that there were folks at the Central who were 'in tune' with the spirit of that first eastbound run of the second Super Chief consist... Not only did they cut their little publicity show short about as soon as every seat was filled ... they ran the thing artificially fast en route. Doubtless to 'make the news' with a timing that would stick in people's minds as what to expect when they took the production train...
Amazing info! I am not familiar with ATSF's streamliner, thus I didn't know that the second lightweight Super Chief's first eastbound run was one year after they entered service. Many say the inauguration of the PRR Trail Blazer caught the management of New York Central off guard, but it seems to me that the leader of the Green Team (well the Pacemaker consist was painted in two tones "Pacemaker Green" in this case) reacted briskly. Maybe they were calculating and manipulative but these are essential characters of outstanding enterprisers. Good game well played, but the Green Team failed to turn the table for the Pacemaker, at least for the first two years.
Imagine how many railfan was actually looking for the 2nd Super Chief consist instead of the "old-school heavyweight" temporary consist of the Pacemaker but the folks were included in the publicity "hype" by the media, including the article in the Railway Age. Let alone we would never know how many patrons were "invited" by both RRs to take the first train (and get off the next station!) for free, how many journalists were "invited" to write an article about both trains and to not mentioning their shortcomings.
Money was tight for both teams, the establishment of the PRR's Fleet of Modernism involved a lot of good looking betterment cars, rebuilt or repainted of heavyweight equipment, which helped PRR to save tons of money. It was a smart investment, and it was smart to not inform NYCRR about the new all-coach train until the last minute. I believe that if NYCRR had enough time, they would have ordered new cars and created something like the Empire State Express; in fact, NYC assigned about new 6 lightweight coaches constructed by Pressed Steel Car Company once the all-coach streamliner was proven a success.
It seems that the customer didn't really care about how "fast" the Pacemaker was, because it was an overnight train! The schedule of the Trail Blazer actually let the passenger had more time to sleep and have breakfast before getting off the train! Yes, one more hour to have breakfast and dress up! This was a win-win situation for the patron and PRR. IIRC I have seen the menu of breakfast on the 1939 version Trail Blazer but I need to confirm that, if it wasn't available in the dining car (I can't see why not), it should be the lounge car provided it.
D70ER, D70CR, the Twin Unit Diner.
Overmod Much more likely that it was doubleheaded K4s competing against J3as and Niagaras, a great deal of the time. It is hard to beat an 80"-drivered twelve-coupled articulated unless your railroad supports very long stretches of sustained high speed... Now, I am tempted to wonder what two K4s rebuilt by Lima with poppets and vastly-improved superheaters might have done if balanced and suspension-modified to make T1-comparable (or at least N&W J-comparable) speed. Of course we know that would rapidly become self-defeating with the great majority of PRR's coaches...
There is a video on YouTube showing the Jeffersonian powered by streamlined K4s doubleheaded with the unstreamlined one, very cool to see the doubleheaded K4s traveling at 90mph with 14 heavyweight betterment cars behind.
Doubleheaded K4s ("4-6-2-4-6-2"?) was common even after all T1s were put into service but I did find some photos of the "poppet valve geared" #5399 hauling the Trail Blazer alone in different time period, maybe she was handling the sections of Trail Blazer (Could be as short as 9 cars).IIRC the #5399 could handle 1000 tons train alone and hit 93mph. But outside the PRR race track between Crestline and Fort Wayne, the average speed of the trains was slow enough to let the passenger sleep, until the passenger saw the GG1 or sunlight...
Other guests including the PRR S2 direct-drive steam turbine and T1 prototype. I almost forgot that the PRR S2 was also another engine that could replace doubleheaded K4s on heavy trains! 1945 was the best year for me, S1, S2, T1 prototype could be found powering Chicago's crack trains.
Eastbound was 15hrs 25mins in 1952, the Pacemaker was the same, thanks to the magic power of diesel. EMC promised a solid 15 hours schedule for the proposed dieselized Broadway Limited as early as 1936. I have heard that if NYCRR pushing the limit of the diesel, 14 hours is possible on the Water Level Route.
If parallel universe is a fact not theory, PRR accepted the offer from EMC and operated the Broadway Limited with EMC E units in at least one "alternative universe". That might have boosted the ridership dramatically but we probably will never know! I think EMC's rendering of PRR's diesel engine was quite attractive...
We got the "Train of Tomorrow", but how about the "Track of Tomorrow"?
Feb 2020: Base on information provided by Coach Yard and photo evidence from Hagley internet archive. Updated the total number of betterment cars with individual car numbers provided on the front page of this post.
21---PRR-built lightweight and rebuilt cars for the Broadway Limited (1937)
2----Class BM70nb Mail car Nos.6529,8616 (For the Broadway Limited)
2----Class B70 Baggage car Nos.6051,6054 (For the Broadway Limited)
2----D70 Dining car Nos.8018, ? (For the Broadway Limited)
66---P70kr 56 seats coach Nos.4244-4309 (1940)
50---P70gsr 68 seat coach Nos.4194-4243 (Single Windows, May-July 1942)
50---P70gsr 56 seats coach Nos.4310-4359 (Paired Windows, May-July 1942)
46---Betterment Pullman HW Sleepers (July 1939 – Jan 1940)
3---- *D70dr Dormitory-Kitchen HW Nos.8019,8021,8023,8025
6---- *D70cr Full Dining Car HW Nos.8020,8022,8024,8026, 8028, 8034
2---- *D70er Kitchen-Lunch Counter Car HW Nos.8027,8033
2---- D70asr Nos.4439, 4457
1---- PLC70r Lounge-cafe
2---- PB70e Baggage-buffet #4931, 4950
9---- POC70r Conversion of P70s to observation cars Nos. 1120-1125,1131,?,?
3---- PB70f Combine Coach-baggage (Nos.5100-5112)
3---- PDB70r, PDB70ar, PDB70a Convert of PB70 to Combine lounge/dormitory/baggage cars Nos.6704-6706
3-----Conversion of PB70 combines to PB36
*Twin Unit Dining Car
Total: 273 approx.
It seems that the "infamous" late night party on Trail Blazer that Joe Welsh mentioned in his book was not only real but also a selling point of the train. Passengers were having fun until midnight, the staff probably didn't. This is what Joe Welsh has written in the book: "The interior of the Trail Blazer's observation cars were convivial gathering places. Railroad files indicate that late night partying in these cars sometimes taxed the patience of crews..." Partying on a low-end all-coach streamliner must be very different from other higher class all-Pullman crack trains like NYC's Century, and this is probably one of the reasons why the Trail Blazer was a success. I guess there wasn't any late night "wild" partying on other PRR's trains like the Broadway and the General neither.
Random PRR stuffs from the FOM era:
16-car Golden Arrow during the war years! Note the long haul tender behind the second K4s.
THE GOLDEN ARROW:
Est. 9/29/1929; #78-79; extra-fare, all-first class train. New York-Chicago; generally considered the second train behind the BROADWAY until THE GENERAL was inaugurated in 1937;
#78 discontinued 1/31/1932 but GOLDEN ARROW name retained for Chicago-New York cars carried on THE LIBERTY LIMITED and "The SPIRIT OF ST. LOUIS" #58/30; extra-fare, all Pullman status dropped 4/24/1932;
#79 combined with RED ARROW east of Mansfield as #69/79 4/24/1932;
#78 restored between Chicago and Pittsburgh with cars carried on THE AMERICAN east of Pittsburgh 4/28/1935;
#78-79 restored as through New York-Chicago train in both directions 4/25/1936;
#79 combined with #63 (ex-MIDWESTERNER) Pittsburgh - Chicago 7/11/1937;
renumbered #79 through to Chicago 9/26/1937;
#78 renamed THE PENNSYLVANIAN 9/28/1941;
Advance #79 added 11/14/1944;
#79 re-designated First Section and Second Section #89 added 4/28/1946;
#79 renamed THE PENNSYLVANIAN 9/29/1946, leaving #89 as THE GOLDEN ARROW;
last trip #89 9/27/1947.
THE PENNSYLVANIAN:
Est. 9/28/1941 by renaming THE GOLDEN ARROW eastbound, #78 Chicago-New York;
#79 also renamed THE PENNSYLVANIAN 9/29/1946; last trip #78 9/27/1947;
last trip #79 9/24/1949 and schedule given to THE GOTHAM LIMITED.
Ah yes, Mutoscope cards -- not taken from the peep-show machines but on similar stock, bundled like chewing-gum cards and dispensed by machine. There just might have been a set for the Trail Blazer; the company went belly-up in 1949. Interesting how many niches that technology could be used in ... and how finally, in the aggregate, the world moved on and left them.
The nostalgia aspect really hit me with that ten cent cup of coffee.
You need a second mortgage to buy a container of Starbucks!
OK, I'm exaggerating, but you know what I mean.
Mind you, I'm old enough to remember five cent Hershey bars, ten cent two-packs of Hostess cupcakes, nickle packs of Wise potato chips, 12 cent comic books, man, I hate to go on!
By the way, want to see how big a Hershey bar used to be? There's a scene in the 1928 movie "Wings" where a young Gary Cooper is munching on a Hershey bar the size of a brick! Aside from the aviation action that's the most amazing thing in the film!
Exterior Painting, Striping, & Lettering Arrangement for Sleeping Conventional Cars Streamlined for Pennsylvania RR Service
https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/nby_pullman/id/4697/rec/10
Creator: Pullman Company
Display Date: May 20, 1939
This is my favorite betterment car!
Flintlock76Mind you, I'm old enough to remember five cent Hershey bars, ten cent two-packs of Hostess cupcakes, nickel packs of Wise potato chips, 12 cent comic books, man, I hate to go on!
Overmod Flintlock76 Mind you, I'm old enough to remember five cent Hershey bars, ten cent two-packs of Hostess cupcakes, nickel packs of Wise potato chips, 12 cent comic books, man, I hate to go on! I'm old enough to remember when a dollar was pegged at $35 an ounce of gold -- and it was illegal for private citizens to own gold bullion. There was actually an episode of one of those time-travel fantasy shows in the mid-Sixties that featured that as being a perfectly self-evident truth of economic life...
Flintlock76 Mind you, I'm old enough to remember five cent Hershey bars, ten cent two-packs of Hostess cupcakes, nickel packs of Wise potato chips, 12 cent comic books, man, I hate to go on!
I'm old enough to remember when a dollar was pegged at $35 an ounce of gold -- and it was illegal for private citizens to own gold bullion. There was actually an episode of one of those time-travel fantasy shows in the mid-Sixties that featured that as being a perfectly self-evident truth of economic life...
I'm old enough to remember that too, in fact, not only was it illegal for citizens to own bullion but gold coins as well. When that legislation was passed gold coins had to be turned in at the local bank and replaced with paper money in the equivalent amount. My grandparents saved a few "Just in case," they didn't surface until my father was going though Grandpa's stuff after he died in 1962. I haven't seen them since but I suppose Dad's got them now. I've never asked.
It's been said that one of the more foolish things Richard Nixon did as president was signing the legislation that took the US off the gold standard, but I'm not an economist, so I can't argue the pros and cons of that statement.
Ever see that film "Kelly's Heroes?" Don Rickles uses the $35 an ounce figure to calculate just how much the German gold they're going to "liberate" is worth.
Great movie folks, watch it if you get the chance!
Pennsylvania #2665 with the South Wind at Louisville, Kentucky. June 1941
https://rlhs.org/Chapters/msc/ardrey/RPRR2665_1.html
Pennsylvania 4-6-2 K4s #3768 (built at PRR Juniata Shops 1920, rebuilt with streamlining in March 1936) at Louisville, Kentucky. April 6, 1942
https://rlhs.org/Chapters/msc/ardrey/img/PRR3768_2.jpg
Pennsylvania #1120 at Louisville, Kentucky. June 1941
https://rlhs.org/Chapters/msc/ardrey/img/PRR1120_1.jpg
Interesting shots of those Pennsy streamliners Mr. Jones, especially the second one which was the inspiration for Lionel's 238E!
By the way, and this question's for everyone, just WHAT is that thing on the valve assembly of a K4 that looks like a spoked wheel for? Is it a shut-off of some kind?
One of those mysteries that bothers me more than it should.
Deleted
Flintlock76By the way, and this question's for everyone, just WHAT is that thing on the valve assembly of a K4 that looks like a spoked wheel for? Is it a shut-off of some kind?
Operation is automatic; the valve behind the cover is spring-loaded and when the is a vacuum drawn by the cylinders (which might otherwise pull smokebox gas and potentially cinders and soot back through the exhaust tract) the valve is pulled slightly to allow relief. (But not from 'outside the cylinder block' although you will see model snifters with mesh vents in the 'pie slices' if the opening).
There were some conditions where the vacuum would fluctuate just enough to cause the valve to oscillate and bang on its seat and stops. Advice to fix this issue would probably be to crack the throttle as PRR recommended for drifting (3 notches for high speed; 2 or 1 for lower -- I suspect 'as many notches as needed to keep the snifting valve quiet...'.
OvermodThat is the plate OVER a drifting valve.
I wonder if those are the same "drifting valve covers" on the Japanese steam locomotives:
They are certainly in a reasonable place. I would be interested to see a closeup -- is that brass part a 'spider' over a screened air intake, as some live-steamer snifting valves I've seen are constructed? Surely we have Japanese railfans (or modelers) who know the detail design of these.
I also wonder about the smaller brass plates over the valves. Are these perhaps compression relief valves? Part of a bypass arrangement for drifting with steam instead of air?
Thanks! I know what a drifting (snifting?) valve is, I've just never seen something like that on anyone elses locomotives.
OvermodThey are certainly in a reasonable place. I would be interested to see a closeup
Here you are:
More information can be found on this Japanese web page:
https://www.over-rabbit.com/railway/live-steam/mecha/runningdevice/990/
Yes, that looks like an external air-admission snifting valve, pulling open if chest pressure falls enough to start pulling a vacuum 'backward' with the throttle closed.
Alas! I misspent my university years by not learning Japanese (after the '87 real-estate implosion started by Olympia and Yorke ruined Japanese world economic domination) and so have no idea what the actual detail design of the valve is. The covers appear to be access ports to the liner, probably for setting the steam edge precisely looking at the ports when adjusting the valve gear. There is at least one technically-minded Japanese model railroader active over on the MR side who could interpret this stuff in a couple of minutes of time, and 'knows what he's looking at' in North American tech detail.
I believe a couple of these drawings, and by extension some of the pictures, clearly show the advantages of long-lap, long-travel valves in operation. Presumably some of the Japanese discussion covers this -- perhaps with details much clearer than anything I could provide.
A Google translation of the Japanese text adjacent to the photo of the bypass valve and the "peephole" (their terms) at the link reads:
There is an air valve seat and a peephole on the front side of the steam chamber.The peephole is used to check when the piston valve closes the hole in the steam chamber bush.The air valve and the lid of the peephole are on the outer panel, so I think they are familiar.
That sounds like Overmod's explanation to me...
Peter
Did all 20th Century steam locomotives have drifting valves, just not located in as obvious location?
daveklepper Did all 20th Century steam locomotives have drifting valves, just not located in as obvious location?
I am looking forward to the answer!
FOM era in Otto Perry collection:
Train #70, The Advance General; 7 cars, 37 MPH. Photographed: leaving Chicago, Ill., July 25, 1940.
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/90039/rec/3
4/6 of the consist were streamlined.
Train #48, The General; 12 cars, 35 MPH. Photographed: leaving Chicago, Ill., July 25, 1940.
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/88672/rec/2
9/12 of the consist were streamlined. According to "Pennsy Streamliners" by Joe Welsh, The General became an All-Pullman train in April 1942, almost two years after The Advance General (a section of Train #48) was inaugurated. Therefore, in the photo, the first car on the consist should be a PB70 combine followed by a betterment car (probably a P70KR).
The consist of The General in 1940 was much longer than The Broadway Limited (8 cars) but still shorter than the standard consist of NYCRR's 20th Century Limited.
Train #30, Spirit of St. Louis; 10 cars. Photographed: leaving St. Louis, Mo., August 16, 1940.
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/62330/rec/14
8/10 of the consist were streamlined.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter