Oh no, the story is FAR more amusing than that, and someone should provide a link to one of the contemporary accounts as they contain some fun Britannic prose.
This is the internet version:
Between 1937 and 1939, two significant records were set by locomotives of the Coronation class. Before the introduction of the Coronation service, No. 6220 headed a special train of invited guests from London Euston to Crewe on 29 June 1937. Just south of Crewe, the train (disputably) achieved a speed of 114 miles per hour (183 km/h), narrowly beating the previous British record for a steam locomotive (held by the London and North Eastern Railway (LNER)). Insufficient braking distance had been left before entering a series of crossover points at Crewe, and although the train held the rails, much crockery in the dining car was smashed.
THe LMS invited Cecil J Allen...
http://www.steamindex.com/library/allen.htm
which was something like coupling a dynamometer car to the train...
Cecil J Allen was a Civil Engineer who worked for the LNER and inspected rails prior to delivery. His hobby was timing trains and he had a pass that allowed him to travel all over Britain as part of his job. The photo in the link above shows him sitting next to Sir Nigel Gresley on the trial of the LNER train Coronation not to be confused with the LMS locomotive of the same name being discussed here.
Forty nine years ago next week I celebrated my 21st Birthday. Of the presents I received from friends, three were books by Cecil J Allen, in cluding his autobiography.
In the autobiography he comments on the LMS trial.
All I can recall offhand is the words "Coronation rode through the crossovers like the great lady she is..."
I'll try to find more - I still have the books, of course.
Peter
Beautiful covers on the Keystone. They truly capture the spirit of the Pennsy.
Overmod states " A considerable effort was made to preserve the S1 'Big Engine' for the collection, it being arguably the most famous and recognizable PRR engine aside from 7002 and 460. In the end it was the sheer (over)size of the project that tipped the balance; PRR was still having balance sheet problems and had prioritized acquiring more diesels stat, and the scrap value of the engine was over $35,000 (considerably more impressive converted to modern dollars). Again much of the correspondence on this survives at the Hagley and it might make an interesting article for Classic Trains."
Well isn't that just lovely that a bunch of executives can send each a whack of memos to cover their butts regarding scrapping. Maybe that's a bit harsh but a billion of dollars company is showing their greed and quite frankly, stupidity. There is no justification, you can play the Northhumberland Card, or the Diesels Now Card, poverty Card is ridiculous, but none of it justifies just a bunch of greedy yes men all lined up to prove how old fashioned steam was. What brave men!
Just as bad the New York Central Hudson's and Niagara's. New sheriff in town I guess, dumb and insensitive. The two 4-6-0's in St Thomas, much beloved, and very late in the game to be retired in the Spring of '57, were scrapped for $4,928.57 in scrap value. The only engines that still existed that were built for CASO/MichiganCentral/NYC in the St. Thomas erecting shops.
Obviously the $4,928.57 did not save the mighty Central, but I'm sure it bought some nice cigars and Bahama yacht vacation for a couple of the swells.
Same darn thing for the S1 and any other of at least one duplex example. There is zero justification. Setting the table for the crooks like Saunders to follow.
Jones1945(another one is S2 #6200 turbine)
The Vol 45, No. 3 Keystone has a pretty decent article about #6200 if you don't already have that issue.
It is still available as a back-issue:
http://www.prrths.com/estore/keystone_magazine.html#2012
Regards, Ed
Jones1945I remember I read a story that in UK 1938, when the streamlined "Coronation Scot" reach 113mph, all the foods or drinks carried on the plate by the waiters in the dinner car were thrown all over the place (haha), and many China in the kitchen car were broken because of the hunting oscillation effect !
As I recall the story, the 114mph (to beat Silver Fox) was attained running downgrade, within a couple of miles of Crewe station, where it then developed (somewhat astoundingly when I first heard the story, and somewhat astoundingly still) that for some reason the Press Run Coronation Scot had been lined across not just one but several crossovers to put the train several tracks off any sort of straight line through. Very sharp crossovers, probably 20mph crossovers. Taken at what was supposed to be about 57mph.
I am still not quite sure how the train made it through this, hunting oscillation playing a comparatively small objective role in the kinematics. But certainly very clear it was that a great deal of the crockery didn't. Certainly stopped any great tendency for the superior four-cylinder LMS Pacifics to be raced up to compete with Mallard later.
As I recall this was mid-1937.
Some years ago Feltonhill had recommended the following article on the S1:
Overmod A good story also involves a certain lack of interest in the riding characteristics of the trailing consist; admittedly I have nothing but anecdotal evidence, but even the best PRR business cars were increasingly hard-riding as slow as 110mph, worse than the locomotive, and it is hard to believe that a long Trail Blazer coach consist even with Dave Klepper's favorite homemade lightweight coaches would have produced tolerable riding at the speed Haas claimed.
A good story also involves a certain lack of interest in the riding characteristics of the trailing consist; admittedly I have nothing but anecdotal evidence, but even the best PRR business cars were increasingly hard-riding as slow as 110mph, worse than the locomotive, and it is hard to believe that a long Trail Blazer coach consist even with Dave Klepper's favorite homemade lightweight coaches would have produced tolerable riding at the speed Haas claimed.
OvermodIt is possible to model the S1 in software and do multiphysics and kinematic analysis on the chassis to determine its stability and freedom from resonant couples (as was done, for example, for the German 05 class which had a calculated severe emergent critical speed close to 122mph, perhaps explaining why a run to outdo Mallard was never made).
(S1 and T1 6111 in the game "TrainZ")OvermodThe Q1 is interesting because it was intended as the 'modern' follow-on to the M1 (the 'performance envelope' specifically chosen to be 5/4 greater in capacity and in speed according to records preserved at the Hagley in Delaware) in the presumed higher-speed world of future Pennsylvania....... It is valuable to consider in particular why 77" drivers were used here,.....For me, Q1 is not only interesting, but I also consider it one of the most beautiful steam engine ever built by PRR. I don't understand why many consider the 77" drivers were too large for a freight locomotive, Q1 was built during the war when construction of passenger steam locomotive was limited (or banned temperately ?), officially it was a new design for fast freight service but I agree with you that it was intended to be the new "M1" which was supposed to be a dual service engine (at least it could switch its roles) . Q1 was a larger streamlined, next-gen version of M1 which was probably inspired by the Grand Trunk Western 4-8-4. The U-4-b class was also a duel engine with 4 set of 73" driver and streamlined casting. I can understand why Q1 was streamlined and using such a large diameter for (express) freight service. Unfortunately, Q1's serving details is also very rare...... I wonder If it was a 4-6-4-6, carry a larger firebox would have helped.
OvermodThe Q1 is interesting because it was intended as the 'modern' follow-on to the M1 (the 'performance envelope' specifically chosen to be 5/4 greater in capacity and in speed according to records preserved at the Hagley in Delaware) in the presumed higher-speed world of future Pennsylvania....... It is valuable to consider in particular why 77" drivers were used here,.....
Streamlined 70+ inches Drivers Dual Service
OvermodA considerable effort was made to preserve the S1 'Big Engine' for the collection, it being arguably the most famous and recognizable PRR engine aside from 7002 and 460. Thank you very much for reminding me that! When S1 was retired, it was just one year after World War II...... One year after it was sent to the torch in 1949, another war began in the far east....... I always tell my friend that If I was PRR HQ, I would at least do some experiment like applying a newer model of the poppet valve and roller bearings on S1 after its first retirement in 46, its massive firebox and boiler shouldn't be wasted like this. Imagine S1 was sold to some 3rd world countries for express service, I believe she is still in service today. : )
OvermodA considerable effort was made to preserve the S1 'Big Engine' for the collection, it being arguably the most famous and recognizable PRR engine aside from 7002 and 460.
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
M636CThe main "rumour" about 6100 is its claim to have run at 141 miles per hour. This is definitely unproven and likely to be false since it is based on one man's estimate of times.
We've discussed this fairly extensively in the past, and I attempted to verify the 'supposed' story by contacting the FRA to determine what, if any ICC "police" action was taken (the high-speed run was supposedly made on the Trail Blazer in 1947 prior to enforcement of the ICC speed restrictions imposed after Naperville). There is no Government record of this (and no formal enforcement at the time) but we should recapitulate some of the details.
The story is attributable to Arnold Haas, who is better known as a NYC man ... one who is on record as having seen Niagaras regularly exceed 120mph in regular service, so make your own assessments. The mentioned speed is not 141mph but 141.2, which should make all you non-metric railfans highly suspicious that this is in fact a converted number from a more 'round' Germanic speed, even before you start looking at likely observation error for recording that speed using the watch and milepost method (the speed recorder for 6100 pegging higher than other PRR engines at 110, the T1s in particular being 100mph, about which more later, so no way to observe 'directly' and no Valve Pilot fitted to either engine). A good story also involves a certain lack of interest in the riding characteristics of the trailing consist; admittedly I have nothing but anecdotal evidence, but even the best PRR business cars were increasingly hard-riding as slow as 110mph, worse than the locomotive, and it is hard to believe that a long Trail Blazer coach consist even with Dave Klepper's favorite homemade lightweight coaches would have produced tolerable riding at the speed Haas claimed.
It is possible to model the S1 in software and do multiphysics and kinematic analysis on the chassis to determine its stability and freedom from resonant couples (as was done, for example, for the German 05 class which had a calculated severe emergent critical speed close to 122mph, perhaps explaining why a run to outdo Mallard was never made). There are some details that would need to be addressed to make the locomotive properly stable on contemporary PRR track west of Crestline, particularly the lateral on the lead truck and on the first driver pair; to my knowledge, this received nothing like the attention the T1s did in the period between 1946 and 1948.
The Q1 is interesting because it was intended as the 'modern' follow-on to the M1 (the 'performance envelope' specifically chosen to be 5/4 greater in capacity and in speed according to records preserved at the Hagley in Delaware) in the presumed higher-speed world of the future Pennsylvania. Remember that this was in the era of the B&O George Emerson and the ATSF 6-4-4-4 proposal, and all three of those designs essentially relied on divided drive to get around conventional balancing limitations rather than using later approaches like close-inboard Timken roller rods (and the ability of disc centers to handle the additional angling balance for the heavier bearings used with them) and Glaze-style balancing. It is valuable to consider in particular why 77" drivers were used here, but 69" on the vastly more capable Q2s (which among other things had a rigid wheelbase shorter than any ATSF 2-10-4 higher than 5001 class, but I digress) that were designed for more expedient wartime speeds. This while many of the J1-class engines, after "debugging", were getting 70" drivers...
A considerable effort was made to preserve the S1 'Big Engine' for the collection, it being arguably the most famous and recognizable PRR engine aside from 7002 and 460. In the end it was the sheer (over)size of the project that tipped the balance; PRR was still having balance sheet problems and had prioritized acquiring more diesels stat, and the scrap value of the engine was over $35,000 (considerably more impressive converted to modern dollars). Again much of the correspondence on this survives at the Hagley and it might make an interesting article for Classic Trains.
The closure of 39 World Fair was in October 1940
(From Wikipedia) The fair was open for two seasons, from April to October each year, and was officially closed permanently on October 27, 1940
Miningman Classics Trains Photo of the Day a few years back. Always adored this photo... it is imposing, stunning and beautiful, even mysterious and haunting. Forum memeber David Klepper saw it in person when it was brand new and showed off at the 1939 Worlds Fair.
Classics Trains Photo of the Day a few years back. Always adored this photo... it is imposing, stunning and beautiful, even mysterious and haunting. Forum memeber David Klepper saw it in person when it was brand new and showed off at the 1939 Worlds Fair.
This is the one and the only one photo of S1 taken during snowy day, very rare and beautiful! I remember I read a story on a post about S1 was frozen during heavy winter, but the crews managed to start it up. I read forum member David Klepper's post, I wish we could see more first-hand stories or info like his sharing.
I always wonder why S1's pics and video are so rare, I believe I have seen more pics or videos of K4s #3768 than S1.
M636CI assume November 1939 was between the 1939 and 1940 seasons of the New York World's Fair...? As was posted above, it did quite a bit of work on the Chicago end, and no problems were attributed to the Walschearts valve gear and piston valves... Peter
As was posted above, it did quite a bit of work on the Chicago end, and no problems were attributed to the Walschearts valve gear and piston valves...
The closure of 39 World Fair was in October 1940, I didn't know if S1 stayed there until the end or not. Franklin poppet valves were planned to be installed on S1 when it was under construction in 1938 but due to some technical difficulty, S1 was off the hook! IF I was the PRR HQ, I would apply Franklin type B poppet valves on S1 after its retirement in mid-1946 instead of throwing it on the scrapheap, but PRR was not run by railfans anyway, and they were probably busy fixing their brand new T1s
(Another lazy photoshopped pic)
I assume November 1939 was between the 1939 and 1940 seasons of the New York World's Fair...?
So they had to extract it by a fairly roundabout route and reinsert it for the following summer, as well as changing the lettering from "American Railroads" to "Pennsylvania" and back the next year...
The Pennsylvania’s one-of-a-kind class S1 6-4-4-6 duplex drive No. 6100 shrugs off an early Chicago winter snow storm as it pauses at Englewood Union Station with the eastbound Manhattan Limited in November 1939.Harold Stirton photo
The main "rumour" about 6100 is its claim to have run at 141 miles per hour.
This is definitely unproven and likely to be false since it is based on one man's estimate of times.
However, if a steam locomotive were to run at 140mph, something like the S1 would be needed to do it. I'd want it to have a dynamometer car attached with more than one speed recording device....
The various "Pennsy Power" books all provide basic details of the S1 and Q1 and show them as built and as modified.
There is a good book in German "Record Lokomotiven" which covers locomotives credited with speed records, NYC 999, PRR E2 7002, DR 05 002, DR 61 003, LNER Mallard and it has a full chapter on 6100. I'll post more detail later....
Original message (April 2018):
I have been collecting photos, models and learning these two mysterious engines for about two years (another one is S2 #6200 turbine). I searched every corner on the web, but information about PRR Duplex S1 #6100 and Q1 #6130 are extremely rare. Take PRR S1 for example, I can't even find its total mileage of her entire career.I know there are some good readings in a few issues of "Keystone" magazine about T1s 4-4-4-4, but content about S1, Q1 are very rare and brief. There is not even one article about S1 in the most reliable source like the "Keystone". Some books and web pages about S1 and Q1 are base on rumors and historically inaccurate. If you have any books, articles or files would like to recommend, please kindly let me know! Much appreciated!
Updates (Dec 2018):
Thank you all who participated in this thread in the past few months, helping me to understand the history of PRR Duplexes and experimental engines in-depth. Please feel free to join the discussion, sharing your thoughts about these fascinating projects which might have changed the history of America's railroad industry. There are still a lot of missing links of these massive engines, your contribution is greatly appreciated Thank you very much!
======
Suspect Q1's conceptual plan (Hagley collections)
Books and Articles about T1
(Special thanks to forum member feltonhill for the list):
Trains forum post about PRR experiential engine:
Last updated: Oct 4, 2019
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter