Why does your model lack steam hoses while the as-built DD1s had them? Because after they were removed from LIRR passenger service (around 1949-1950?), two were retained as power for the Penn. Sta. tunnels' wire train. (The third rail extends to the New Jersey Portal.) They probably lost their boilers and steam hose connections at that time, and continued as wire train power for about 20 years until the Penn Central replaced them with an ex-NYCentral T-1, not needed in Grand Central Terminal service and with underrunning shoes replaced with overrunning. Today, Amtrak borrows LIRR MUs to do the job. The model is probably based on the two longest surviving DD1s in their final configuration. Isn't one preserved in Baltimore?
There it is, take it from one who was there!
Bless you David, I don't know what we'd do without you!
I can assure you that DD1s had steam boilers for train heating. They continued in passenger service on the LIRR between Penn Station and Jamaica, where power was swapped to and from K4s and G5s on through trains to and from non-electrified branches. These trains used steam-heated P70s and ping-pong P54s. Thru operation of these trains, later replaced by "Change in Jamaica" continued through WWII. The LIRR also used DD1s in freight service, and I recall such a freight train on the Long Beach branch.
erikemConsidering that the train would be spending most of the time between Manhattan Transfer and Penn Station in a tunnel, there wouldn't be a lot of need for heat.
That might have been the original assumption, but it would have been proven ... mistaken ... pretty quickly.
Three-quarters or more of the New York Tunnel Extension is outside the tunnel, and much of that was on top of a substantial embankment, exposed to wind.
Anyone who has visited the west portals knows the substantial displaced airflow through the north and south River Tunnels. There was substantial open space, where cold air could 'pond', between Penn Station and the east portals, and I suspect there was relatively little chance for heat exchange between displaced winter air and the deep structure in the time a train took to transit the tunnel even net of traction heating - riding open platform or vestibule through the tunnels in winter can be a chill experience.
While I suspect the preserved 'wire train' DD1s lost any passenger heat boilers long ago, a little forensic engineering investigation might show what had been installed over the years.
Considering that the train would be spending most of the time between Manhattan Transfer and Penn Station in a tunnel, there wouldn't be a lot of need for heat.
The General Electric Review article stated that 12 elecric flash boilers were made at the time of writing and it wasn't clear how many of those were installed on DD-1s.
I would guess that in 1911, if some body was lucky enough to get a ride to the station in a car, it probably did not have a heater. People dressed for the weather, so the few minutes ride from the Transfer to Penn Station in a car still somewhat warm was probably tolerable, and PRR might not have considered heating a worry in the initial design of the DD1.
Overmod erikem Best way to use electricity for heating is electric heaters in the cars as done by the B.A.&P. Yes BUT ...
erikem
Best way to use electricity for heating is electric heaters in the cars as done by the B.A.&P.
Yes BUT ...
Probably should have added "in an ideal world"...
It makes perfect sense that the PRR went with the steam generators for the DD-1s for exactly the reasons you mentioned, whereas the B.A.&P. had the luxury of cars that were almost exclusively used on the electrified lines. An ironic twist was when the B.A.&P. dropped their passenger trains for mixed trains, they went back to coal stove heating.
A related factoid was that the UP found that the head end powered electric resistance heating on the 1938 (E-2 hauled) edition of the CoLA and CoSF used less diesel oil than the steam heat. IIRC, a car required about 200 lb/hr of steam, which would need on the order of 15 lb/hr of fuel, where the peak heating load per car was 28kW, which could be generated with about 15 lb/hr of fuel.
- Erik
gmpullman Firelock76 Ya done good bro, they're gorgeous! Thanks! I didn't realize I'd even "needed" a DD1 This fall, Broadway Limited is supposed to make their HO, P5a available. They'll be in good company. Regards, Ed
Firelock76 Ya done good bro, they're gorgeous!
Thanks! I didn't realize I'd even "needed" a DD1
This fall, Broadway Limited is supposed to make their HO, P5a available. They'll be in good company.
Regards, Ed
I can dig it, a few weeks ago I didn't know I needed an MTH N&W Y6b, then one day guess what happened?
I just LOVE that 1916 DD1 diagram! Like something out of a Jules Verne novel!
erikemBest way to use electricity for heating is electric heaters in the cars as done by the B.A.&P.
...when you have an enormous stock of various kinds of passenger car, all of which are set up for steam heat and none for either trainlined electricity or electric car heaters either using or separate from the ducting for the steam-heat system... the use of steam generators remains extremely attractive. (Unsurprising that oil-fired steam generators remained the standard through the GG1 years, even to the extent of leaving the road engine on the PRR 'through service' to the prewar World's Fair to provide steam 'autonomously' while DD1s served as transfer power...)
This continued through the days of the 'tubular train' (with its separate HEP system) all the way through the early years of Amtrak in the NEC with first the heater cars and then the dedicated HEP cars. It was a long and relatively expensive trip to get to the equivalent, even with much higher effective COP, of 'electric heating in the cars' on the PRR westbound out of New York...
The DD-1s were a Baldwin-Westinghouse product and the GE development of the flash boilers comes across as a PRR modification. As such, the steam generating equipment would not show up on the builder drawings. It was interesting to see the steel tubing used as the resistance element.
The familiar pipe arrangement found on almost all steam-heated equipment was not universal until after WW I. Asbestos-laced, wire-reinforced hoses were used on some equipment before then.
Thank you for the pertinent information, Eric and Overmod. I've yet to find a clear photo of the end of a DD1 showing any kind of steam connection. Even in the diagram below there is no mention of water tanks, although perhaps the compact size of the electric flash boiler could have fit above the air compressor and water tanks in the second unit of the pair.
PRR_DD1_view by Edmund, on Flickr
Quite possibly the flash boilers were added some time after construction and most of the photos predate this. All the original electrical work was credited to Westinghouse.
The text in the GE document clearly states that these units were purchased for supplying steam on the locomotives of the New York Terminal service.
Fascinating information. Thank you!
erikemA circa 1914 issue of the General Electric Review had an article on on electrically powered steam generators for the PRR electrification.
Vol 17, pp.871-3.
A circa 1914 issue of the General Electric Review had an article on on electrically powered steam generators for the PRR electrification. The gist of the article was that the steam generators were sized to maintain the heat, with the cars being pre-heated at Sunnyside yard.
An out bound train starting in Sunnyside would need to run to Penn Station, stop for passengers, and then make the trip to the Transfer. Seems like a long time to be without heat. Like you say, maybe steam lines at Penn Station. Could it have had an electric steam generator since it was operating in tunnels and an enclosed station?
I checked Middleton's When the Steam Railroads Electrified but could not find details on the DD1 train heating. There was a photo of DD1s haulng a train into the Worlds Fair without GG1 assistance, although it was July.
Firelock76Ya done good bro, they're gorgeous!
I can't answer your question Ed, but as a "resident" of the Classic Toy Trains Forum I've just got to complement you on your models of those DD1's!
Ya done good bro, they're gorgeous!
Hello,
I recently acquired an old Alco Models, Pennsy DD1 jack-shaft "motor". In doing a little research as to the background of the early Pennsy electrics I have concluded that these locomotives were built sans steam heat boiler.
PRR_DD1a by Edmund, on Flickr
I don't see any evidence of steam lines on the pilot and in the few diagrams and even fewer photos inside the carbody, I don't see any room for a steam generator apparatus.
My main question is what was behind the reasoning in this? Did the PRR engineers believe that the quick jaunt from Manhattan Transfer into Penn Station could be pulled-off before the cars cooled down? What about after the bulk of DD1s were re-assigned to the Long Island. Did their trailing passenger cars have third-rail pickup to supply electric-resistance heat? Were the cars tied up to stationary steam lines inside Penn Station after arrival but before going to Sunnyside?
I know the New York Central sometimes used steam-heat trailers with the non SG equipped S class motors and the run from Harmon to GCT was considerably longer than that of the Pennsy's, but I have to believe that occasional delays were encountered of sufficient duration that on the really cold days that the cars would become uncomfortably chilly.
I found a photo of a DD1 powered passenger train arriving at the New York World's Fair, in Long Island's third-rail territory, with a GG1 in tow to supply steam heat. Certainly this was not an every day occurrence — or was it?
http://arrts-arrchives.com/1939wf.html
Scroll nearly to the bottom.
Can anyone elaborate?
Thank You, Ed
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