Trains.com

Virginian box-cab electrics photo

10693 views
88 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Virginian box-cab electrics photo
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 11:20 AM

Where is the catenary?   Where are the raised pantographs?  Where are the poles for the catenary?   A posed photo on a non-electric line or prior to electrification?

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 11:33 AM

Good eye Dave. You might be 85 but you don't miss a thing, nothing gets by. It must be a posed photo. 

Luv those box cabs. Would have been something to see them on a long coal drag with their siderods in motion. 

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 12:09 PM

The squareheads had their appeal but much can be said for the EL-2B's and EL-C's that replaced them.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 12:23 PM

Judging by the consist, the type of box cars, etc. it looks like it was a posed p;icture after the electrification was removed and before the locmotives were scrapped.  Done when the N&W already owned the track and the newest electrics had been sold to the New Haven.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 1:08 PM

Another thought.  With directional running, before the N&W scrapped the Virginian electrification, did the experiment with the donwhill loaded trains running just by gravity, with the locomotives returned to do their uphill job and simply provide braking power?  And this was a photo of an experimental run to determine its feasibility? 

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 1:19 PM

I have to admit I was thinking the exact same thing but dismissed it out of mind as being just too crazy. You might be right Dave!

I think a note to Classic Trains is in order to get more information...you would think there is some caption to go along with the photo. 

...note to Editorial Staff sent...hopefully we get an answer. 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 1:47 PM

daveklepper

Another thought.  With directional running, before the N&W scrapped the Virginian electrification, did the experiment with the donwhill loaded trains running just by gravity, with the locomotives returned to do their uphill job and simply provide braking power?  And this was a photo of an experimental run to determine its feasibility? 

 

Without catenary, where do you get the power to run the air pumps? The picture is either posed or doctored.

Johnny

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 2:34 PM

Look at the sky on the right side of the photo.  The catenary is there, it's just very light.  Besides, the "squareheads" were scrapped before the N&W merger.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 2:38 PM

Then why are the pantographs down?

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 2:43 PM

And I do see two catenary support poles rising over the hoppers with side-brackets to support the near-invisible catenary.   But the pans are all down.

  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Calgary AB. Canada
  • 2,298 posts
Posted by AgentKid on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 2:52 PM

I can't get past the fact that there are crewmen visible on the first and third engines. It reminds me of stories of how when retired steam engines were moved to their final resting places there would be someone on the engine or engines being moved to ensure everything was staying lubricated for their final run.

It is like these engines were being pulled somewhere and the diesels were cut off and moved ahead for this final posed photo of these three engines.

Bruce

 

So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.

"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere"  CP Rail Public Timetable

"O. S. Irricana"

. . . __ . ______

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 2:55 PM

Dave et al- If you blow up the picture the pans are up on the second and third locomotive.....they just "disappear" into the tree line. 

Once you know where to look they appear. At the rear of the last unit, an engineer is hanging out the cab on the last unit...just look up to his right and there it is...easier if you blow up the image. 

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, July 5, 2017 5:18 PM

There's an all-too-brief film sequence of those Virginian electrics in the Herron "Glory Machines" video, and they are wild-looking with those jackshafts pumping away.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, July 6, 2017 6:14 AM

Miningman
At the rear of the last unit, an engineer is hanging out the cab on the last unit...

I think it was VGN practice to have the head end brakeman ride the rear unit - kind of like the "doghouse" on the PRR.

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Thursday, July 6, 2017 11:16 AM

rcdrye-Yes of course, that makes sense. Thanks.

I did receive a reply letter from Robert McGonigal the Editor at Classic Trains, stating the picture was real and not a staged shot. He also pointed out that if you blow up the picture you can see the pantographs are up on 2 units. This was Virginian practice. I discovered the same thing at virtually the same time. 

The catenary and pans just get lost in the trees creating at first sight an illusion. 

The Virginian was a proud and great All American railroad..with their big steam, their old electrics, their new electrics and then virtually 100% Fairbanks Morse. Charm, power, rural, tidewater..,so fascinating. Yet another fallen flag. At times it is difficult to comprehend.

NDG
  • Member since
    December 2013
  • 1,620 posts
Posted by NDG on Thursday, July 6, 2017 1:53 PM

 

Thank You.

 

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Thursday, July 6, 2017 4:33 PM

Magnificient pictures NDG. Nice find. 

Obvious that the Virginian standard practice was to run 3 of these units at a time with the lead unit 'Pans-down". 

  • Member since
    October 2011
  • 6 posts
Posted by ElmoreTRM on Friday, July 7, 2017 11:23 AM

Nothing unusual in the picture.  My dad was a Virginian brakeman and rode many miles on the electrics on the third unit.

It was standard practice to leave the front pantograph down on VGN electrics.  If the engineer spotted ice hanging from the roof of a tunnel or something similar it gave him a chance to lower the pantographs to advoid damage.  Also if the catenary was damaged by a pantograph there is a chance the lead pantograph would still be under good wire and the unit could move.

The correct location of the picture is Oakvale, WV not Oakdale.

The last Squarehead to operate was a single unit on a work train on Haloween 1959.

Tom Marshall

 

 

NDG
  • Member since
    December 2013
  • 1,620 posts
Posted by NDG on Friday, July 7, 2017 3:22 PM

Thank You.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 5,017 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, July 7, 2017 3:34 PM

Virginian seems to have been comfortable with high-tension cables.  They were usable on both ends of the various EL-A (Squarehead), on the cab ends of the EL-2B (as well as between the halves), and on the long hood end of the EL-C.  The EL-C and EL-2B could be connected if necessary.

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, July 8, 2017 11:08 AM

I went looking for some footage of Virginian jackshaft electrics and I hit pay dirt, it's a JMJ video from 1989.  The jackshafts show up three minutes into the film and sure enough the pantograph on the first unit is in the down position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ix6fUNaL4

Old black and white footage, a little murky at times, but not too bad.

Have fun everyone!

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, July 8, 2017 12:23 PM

Now that is a great film! Terrific stuff...these fellows were ssteam fans for sure with lots and lots of action. Nice thing is the "pace" of the film which keeps you very engaged. It's better than some of the stuff put out today. A few colour shots and even an attempt at a steam night scene. Some soundtrack too. 

Big pat on the back...Thank you Firelock. 

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, July 8, 2017 2:31 PM

Thanks Miningman!  I just knew there had to be something out there on You Tube, quite a few railfan vids have been posted.  I was going to settle for some HO model shots but kept going and found the JMJ video.  Like I said, I lucked out.

Or maybe persistance pays off after all!

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Saturday, July 8, 2017 2:56 PM

I think that keeping the forward pan down was an evolved practice:  see the shot in this video slideshow that shows all three pans up, probably in the mid-Twenties, and then the shot of the standing electrics ... now we know which way the locomotives were intended to move when they go!

Also interesting is that the big EL-2b sets apparently ran regularly with the two end pans up -- could that be because the locomotive so thoroughly filled the tunnels that any damaging icicles were gone before the first pan got there? Smile

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, July 8, 2017 2:58 PM

What I find really disturbing these past few years, and continuing still, is the use of those super fast clips, like 5 or 10 images in a second. It is prevalent throughout all forms of media these days. 

No wonder people and kids have ADD. In my case it creates an instant anger response. I avoid them and look away. Guess these producers think they are being cool but it is very harmful in my opinion. 

This is a very smart informative film that is full of action that can be absorbed in a learning manner. 

 

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, July 8, 2017 3:16 PM

Interesting video RME.  I found it before I found the JMJ video, but I was looking for motion pictures instead of a slide show so I didn't bother to post it.  Not that there's anything wrong with a slide show.

I'm not sure what to make of the narrator.  Is he even human?

He's no Richard Basehart, Alexander Scourby, Richard Kiley, or Orson Welles, that's for certain!  Anyone remember those great voices?

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Saturday, July 8, 2017 3:36 PM

Firelock76
I'm not sure what to make of the narrator. Is he even human?

Voice synthesis.  I suspect the source package is overseas, possibly Chinese.  Compare it with the (rather interesting) technology adopted by the National Weather Service for the weatheradio stations like 162.55MHz.  (Amusingly enough, their tech people fixed the weird robot pronunciation of 'thunderstorms' at one point, but some subsequent 'update' broke the fix.)

You might find it interesting that the 'target voice' I used when doing voice synthesis for 'digital personal assistants' in the mid-Eighties was Tammy Grimes.  And yes, we figured out how to do speech synthesis that had the right characteristics.  It ought to be trivially simple by now ... for actual programmers, instead of the script-kiddee wannabes we seem to have working in the field now.

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, July 8, 2017 3:41 PM

I remember Tammy Grimes very well, and an elegant voice she had, too!

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, July 8, 2017 3:49 PM

I'm rather amused of the other way around and fond of humans mimicking a synthesized voice. "Danger Will Robertson, Danger"

Or the Daleks on Dr. Who. 

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, July 8, 2017 3:56 PM

That was no synthesized voice on the "Lost In Space" robot!  That was a voice actor named Dick Tufeld!

Now the Daleks are another matter.  "EX-TER-MIN-ATE!"  Definately synthesized!

Informal poll time:  Who's the best Doctor Who?

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter